http://www.msnbc.com/news/945930.asp?0cv=CB20

Includes quotes and pictures of Dexterity and his games.

I've been seeing more and more in the mainstream news about indie games, which I think is a very good sign for the indie marketplace.

Dexterity Software
Puzzle games: "Dweeb" and "Pharaoh's Curse"
Goodsol
Card games: "Pretty Good Solitaire"
Retro64
Arcade: "Bugatron" and "Z-Ball"
21-6 Productions
Puzzle and arcade games: "Orbz" and "Cyclone"
Twilight Games
Puzzle games: "A Snake's Life" and "Aargon"


Hey all right! a few more familiar faces made the list this time! congrats guys!

Also the author of this article is remarkably up to date on the various indie hotspots. Dr. Blob's Organisim just came out like a week or so ago. Nice to see the press following indies a little closer.

221 refers so far, and climbing fast....

Geoff Knowland... Isn't it Howland? While it's nice to see some indie press this columnist sucks. I read an article by him yesterday and there was tons of stuff that just seemed wrong (games for the PS2 require at least 40 times more lines of code than the previous generation games...)

Dweeb?? =)

They also said popcap sold 10 million games, but it's actually 1 million...

I did a phone interview with the author of that article last week, so it was finished fairly quickly. The indie links section of the article was largely drawn from our very own Indie FAQ (http://www.dexterity.com/articles/indie-faq.htm).

It's a shame he referred to Dweep as "Dweeb" in one place, although the name is correct in the caption near the screen shot.

Damn! Zipf distribution on the internet strikes again. There's just never enough room to mention us all...

Cas :)

I'm glad a few more indies were included this time, unlike the CNN article awhile back. :)

A much better article I believe. Interesting the buzz around Indie Gaming lately...at least the media seems to have some idea what they want to label the group as.

Pretty cool article. I did a phone interview with him a couple weeks ago and spent most the time just mentioning a bunch of different game names. Bummer he didn't hook me up with a link, hehe, ahh well. Nice to see that at least a couple hardcore games got mentioned for a change, too many people have the idea that indie means casual games.

For once I seem to have jumped on the bandwagon before its too late ;) (ahem.. missed the whole dot com era while i was learning web design) Hopefully its not just a fad and will last long enough for me to get a couple games out. Not that I'm really doing this for the money... I've been making 'amateur games' since the C64 days and its the only work I could see myself doing in the long run ;)

Respect to the indie developers! The punk rock of videogames pretty much sums up the attitude for me. And the rise in indie development seems to have come about for the same reasons as the rise of punk. That is, that the mainstream had gotten too technical, too corporate, too high in production cost, too low in creative freedom, and had basically forgotten the reasons why people had gotten excited about the art form in the first place.

And yes, indie development, for me, means EVERY kind of game, not just the five-minute puzzler. Diversity is our greatest strength.

The author called me about a week and a half ago and I did a phone interview with him and then pointed him towards all the various companies you see in that list. That's partly why there's more familiar faces in this article. He had actually run across indiegamer.com and contacted me there for information on the article. About a week before that he'd done an article on how console game prices were rising and he said he wanted to do an article about the other side of the game business. It's nice exposure!

Over here in Seattle, the Seattle Times has run a number of articles about indie gamers. Looks like a little PR work has helped out with the industry!

Have you got any links to those articles, rocketgames? :)

Geoff Howland is also the owner of Lupinegames www.lupinegames.com He published one game Hatfields & McCoys in retail through Valusoft. The other game Veiled Threat is a long time on hold. He tried to build like many developers a healthy development studio, but it didn't succeed. That's why I think he went the direction, like many developers, of shareware marketing as an indie.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/TECH_Front.asp?0dm=C---T

It's now on the technology and science front page... I am seeing at least one visitor to my site every 10 seconds, and I am pretty far down on the list... Thanks Steve V. :-)

A screen shot of Dweep Gold is now on the Tech/Science home page too with "dexterity.com" written vertically next to it -- nice!

This article has referred 2200+ visitors to dexterity.com so far. MSNBC.com's ranking on alexa.com is 33, so that's a fairly popular site. I haven't notice much increase in downloads though, so it may be a lot of very casual traffic. Many times PR like this doesn't have much immediate impact on sales -- it tends to be more ego gratification than anything else. Being on download.com's home page for a day will likely have a much bigger sales impact. But good PR certainly doesn't hurt.

I agree, no major change in downloads here either. But another big plus is that other mainstream journalists could read the article, which would trigger more press...

Incase the msnbc site changes in the next little while....

here's a screencapture and I must say, that's pretty stinking cool to see dweep on the front page of one of the msnbc sections. ;)

http://www.rainfallstudios.com/kablesart/msnbcDexterity.png

Wow! This is awesome! You guys must be loving the extra traffic, not to mention a huge boost to your ego. ;)

Originally posted by Mike Boeh
I agree, no major change in downloads here either. But another big plus is that other mainstream journalists could read the article, which would trigger more press...

Hmmmm... yeah. I wonder if it's remotely possible that the CNN article somehow triggered this one. I also wonder how they do their homework for the articles. At the time of the CNN one, Spiderweb Software had an incredibly low web rank compared to all the others at 450,000. At the time of this article, it's still really low in comparison at 250,000 while Dexterity and Retro64 are around 29,000 and 75,000.

Originally posted by Hydroaxe
Hmmmm... yeah. I wonder if it's remotely possible that the CNN article somehow triggered this one. I also wonder how they do their homework for the articles. At the time of the CNN one, Spiderweb Software had an incredibly low web rank compared to all the others at 450,000. At the time of this article, it's still really low in comparison at 250,000 while Dexterity and Retro64 are around 29,000 and 75,000.

From what Tom told me this one was triggered by a piece he did not too long ago about game prices, and he wonderd about indie games and how their prices are low. So the idea was that there are games out there that gamers will enjoy but don't cost an arm and a leg. That's why I was surprised that he didn't mention more hardcore games.

As far as research goes, I got the impression that he did his research by looking in the news sections of garage games, diy games, and a couple other sites (said he did a google search for independent games). I know that when he interviewed James and myself he basically asked for a list of various independent games and played some.

Originally posted by Gmicek
So the idea was that there are games out there that gamers will enjoy but don't cost an arm and a leg. That's why I was surprised that he didn't mention more hardcore games.


What are "hardcore" games? Are those the non-puzzle titles in your mind? Just looking at the numbers it seems that the puzzle games have well outsold the non-puzzle games, though I'm not sure not being a puzzle game makes a game "hardcore."

What did you mean by that?

Originally posted by Gmicek
From what Tom told me this one was triggered by a piece he did not too long ago about game prices, and he wonderd about indie games and how their prices are low.

Yes that's correct. Same thing Tom told me. It was the high console price article that was the trigger for this one.

Indiegamer.com was how he found me. If you type "indie game reviews" in google we're like the 3rd link or so. I sent him a long list of things to check out like the indie-faq, some of the other sites, this message board, a number of company names, and various articles on pricing and other things.

Not everyone I mentioned got a call or got into the article, but in an email exchage Tom just recently he said that indie gaming was much larger and more diverse than he previously thought and that one of the hardest things writing the article was to try and get everyone's voice in. On the upside, he did also say that now that he had a better feel for the Indie game scene, he probably would return to it at some point and write some more articles.

Originally posted by cyrus_zuo
What did you mean by that?

Generally speaking hardcore games are those targeted at what one would consider hardcore gamers. Games like Half-Life, C&C, NWN, and so on could all be considered hardcore games. On the indie side of things I would consider Combat Mission, Avernum, Trash, Anito, World Fables, Lasersquad Nemesis, and (possibly) They Came From Hollywood hardcore games because they appeal to the type of gamer that seeks out gaming news on websites and magazine. Puzzle and logic games would be considered casual games because they're more traditionally played by people in either an on and off manner or by older games not looking to read a 20 page manual to figure stuff out.

Traditionally speaking games that appeal to the casual audience almost always sell more than those targeted at the hardcore audience. Speaking as a gamer I'm more interested in hardcore games because the developers seem more willing to take chances and try something new, rather than trying to sell as many games to as many difference people as possible.

Originally posted by Gmicek

Speaking as a gamer I'm more interested in hardcore games because the developers seem more willing to take chances and try something new, rather than trying to sell as many games to as many difference people as possible.

Unless you're talking about hardcore games from independent developers, that's not true. Just about every game made for the retail market is targeting hardcore gamers, yet how many original games do you see out there these days.

Originally posted by Gmicek
On the indie side of things I would consider Combat Mission, Avernum, Trash, Anito, World Fables, Lasersquad Nemesis, and (possibly) They Came From Hollywood hardcore games...[/B]
What, we're not HARDCORE? We've got death, destruction, blood, exploding gas trucks, napalm, A-10s, flamethrowers, llamas, llamas with flamethrowers in their mouths, terrifying 60-foot-tall peas, you can play using a dance pad...

...okay, yeah, you have a point there.

Sparky
http://www.tcfh.com

Originally posted by Fenix Down
Unless you're talking about hardcore games from independent developers, that's not true. Just about every game made for the retail market is targeting hardcore gamers, yet how many original games do you see out there these days.

The ones you hear about on gaming news sites and in the magazines, yes. But when you look at some of the ultra high sellers like The Sims, Sim City, Rollercoaster Tycoon you can see that they're geared towards casual gamers. Now, looking at the current top ten lists certainly has more "hardcore" games, but they also don't track Wal-Mart sales anymore, so the numbers aren't exactly reliable.

Besides, I don't see too many makers of casual games taking chances when it comes to their design choices. On the other hand it seems like makers of hardcore games are more willing take a chance with something that might not appeal to everyone, they also seem to be getting a lot better at introducing new concepts into their games. More so than developers of casual games that is. Honestly, I would rather play a game such as World Fables than another puzzle game.

Originally posted by SparkyTCFH
What, we're not HARDCORE? We've got death, destruction, blood, exploding gas trucks, napalm, A-10s, flamethrowers, llamas, llamas with flamethrowers in their mouths, terrifying 60-foot-tall peas, you can play using a dance pad...

Well, I havn't exactly played the game yet so I cannot honestly speak to it's hardcoreness. Although, someone told me it has a mini-game where Newtrino plays Breakout with a car as the ball and some buildings as blocks. :)

The MSNBC article stressed th epossibility for innovation coming from the indie (shareware) gaming field. That certainly is possible, but I wonder if the economics of the industry make that an optimal choice.

The question in my mind is, how much innovation can you achieve while staying well within the bounds of existing hardware limitations?

In its day DOOM pushed hardware to the limit, but you could at least make it run (however slowly) on a default PC. People got the idea, then went out and got better computers so they could play. Today, even if you could do something comparably compelling, on the order of Half-Life 2, you're cutting yourself off from the major part of the shareware audience, who won't even be able to run your game.

I don't say that innovation = flashy hardware-stressing graphics. But I DO think that innovation = taking advantage, in various ways, of greater computing power. And that shuts out a lucrative segment of the audience.

If you're an indie gamer aiming for innovation, I hope you've got an equally innovative business plan.

On the "hardcore" gaming concept.

Interesting view, I hadn't looked at it like that, though I too have trouble with hardcore game being considered more innovative. For me I'm excited to try out World Fables, but swapping Gingerbread men for army men or tanks doesn't make the game all that innovative. It is still an RTS. Certainly it adds its own viewpoint. However, just about every breakout clone I've played also adds its own ingenuity to the breakout gamefield. I find those additions/changes no more or less innovative than variations on FPS or RTS or even RPG games. Certainly the same could be said of Puzzle games. There are many new Puzzle games that are innovative in their own way.

I think the best part of your description is probably that hardcore games are the games look for information on. They may get magazines or look on websites. Casual games typically do not. Though the whole sim/rollercoaster game sets would also debunk that some.

Interesting thoughts, just trying to understand the viewpoint. My thought of a hardcore gamer is someone who plays a lot. I've never considered what they play into the equation. If they played 5 straight hours of MOO3 or RCT2 it didn't change my thought that they were a die-hard. Certainly there are game types that have a higher likelyhood of being played for long periods of time. Perhaps that is where the division line is. I don't know, but I certainly would hesitate to draw it at innovation.

I'd rather play World Fables than another puzzle game as well. :)

Originally posted by cyrus_zuo
Interesting view, I hadn't looked at it like that, though I too have trouble with hardcore game being considered more innovative. For me I'm excited to try out World Fables, but swapping Gingerbread men for army men or tanks doesn't make the game all that innovative. It is still an RTS.

From all that I've played of it so far it seems to be something fairly unique so far. The way the RPG element plays out is pretty interesting, and the way you travel throughout the land picking your battles is nice. Also, the number of playable sides (4) is not entirely unique, but unusual, and add that to the fact that those four sides are just half of the "races" you come across in the game and you have some great possibilities.

A game like Trash is a less innovative RTS in the sense that it takes what a number of other games have done in the past and attempts to improve on them. When I first played it I figured "Ok, so I've played this game 50 days before when it had a different name." But then I talked to some people about it and they pointed out some of the more unique features found under the surface. It's one of those games that will look like just another RTS game to non hardcore RTS fans, but for hardcore RTS fans (which is the crowd the game is aimed at) it should offer something new and pretty unique.

Originally posted by cyrus_zuo
I think the best part of your description is probably that hardcore games are the games look for information on. They may get magazines or look on websites. Casual games typically do not. Though the whole sim/rollercoaster game sets would also debunk that some.

Those games are really geared towards a mainstream audience, but they were breakout titles in the sense that a number of hardcore gamers enjoyed them as well, at least for a little while.


Originally posted by Allen Varney
The question in my mind is, how much innovation can you achieve while staying well within the bounds of existing hardware limitations?

I think of it on a purely non technical level. Look at Parappa The Rapper, when it came out it was almost completely original in idea and execution, it blew peoples minds. And yet, it wasn't exactly a technical masterpiece. What it excelled at was great design and art/music direction. As far as I'm concerned indie developers don't need to take advantage of greater amounts of computing power. What they do need to take advantage of is their status as indie developers and try to do something different and unique, even if that just means making a vanilla FPS but with pencil drawn graphics. Innovation through artistic design and styling is something available to indies, but a lot of big dev/publishing houses don't seem willing to push. Look at Platypus, cool game (extremely difficult, and infuriating startup and menuing), and some very unique artistic design. My memory might not be perfect but the last time I saw something that looked like it was the Neverhood game(s).

Independent developers can also explore creating games with better stories, writing, strategic elements, and gameplay variety. If a group of indies released an X-Com clone now days it would be roasted for poor graphics, but would get high marks for innovation (even though it's still a clone in the true sense of the word, that type of game isn't often made) and gameplay.