Hello, on this link (http://www.geocities.com/mman76dev/index.html) you will find 3 screenshots of my new game called Auto Madness (still in early beta). It’s a 3D Racing game, which is sort of similar to Need For Speed series. I obviously have some different game play elements, but still I am worried. I obviously can't compete with a huge company like EA feature wise. So one way I can compete is having low system requirements. (My 4 year old computer runs the game at 60fps-which is max). However I’m wondering if that is enough to successfully sell the game. Do you guys have any other suggestions how a game of this type may compete to the shelf AAA games? Do you think this type of game is suitable to the indie market?

Any suggestions/comments welcome.

IMO, most gamers who like racing games like them for the simulations and the real-world and/or highly-detailed cars (or really cool fantasy cars).

Targetting lower system requirements IMO would be going against what this audience typically desires. Many of these gamers quickly judge the game from the screenshots based on how cutting edge it looks...and won't even download the demo if it looks dated (that's what I use to do at least).

You might be able to go in a more "arcadey" direction and do "fun" physics (instead of focusing on pure realism).

Personally, I think these types of games require bigger budgets and/or licensed cars and/or real roads/tracks to be financially viable (and there's lots of competition).

These games should also support all the latest driving wheels, which could be hard to get a hold of (i.e., freebies) as an Indy.

Just my two cents. Best of luck with whichever direction you choose.
-Scorpio

When the current PC and console racers look like this (http://www.gamespot.com/xbox/driving/nfsunderground/screens.html?page=7), it's of course pretty much impossible to compete visually as an indie. So I don't know really..

BTW, those skidmarks of yours would look way better if you joined up the polygons, for what it's worth :)

one opportunity would be to build up a fanbase community by providing cars- and track editors, and online forums.
racing sims are just like FPS, they are fun to modify/customize.
the players could create and join racing leagues, share their custom car models/skins, tracks etc.
of course people would need the full version to run mods, which is good for you :).

however, i don't know how you would build up such a community, and without a good mutliplayer mode it won't happen..
but the customization part is still applicable, i guess.

Hmm, interesting, thanks for the opinions. Scorpio - I forgot to mention that, I do plan on doing "fun, arcade-like physics" and other features like in Mario Carts where you can pick up things and use them against your opponents. I was thinking if Think Tanks from GarageGames can be successful by providing an arcade like tank game(There are lots of AAA tank simulation games around) than I should also be able to succeed by providing an arcade racer. I just hope I am right:)

One thing that would help your game is improved graphics (artwork wise). Although you don't need to look like NSF: Underground, and your car models and environments are pretty good geometry wise, your textures could use a lot of work. The first thing that came to my mind when I saw your screens was that this is a amateur project. It looks like a kid learning OpenGL made it. I suggest you get some photo textures or something.

Originally posted by Impossible
One thing that would help your game is improved graphics (artwork wise). Although you don't need to look like NSF: Underground, and your car models and environments are pretty good geometry wise, your textures could use a lot of work. The first thing that came to my mind when I saw your screens was that this is a amateur project. It looks like a kid learning OpenGL made it. I suggest you get some photo textures or something.

Could you be a little more specific? Which textures do you mean. The trees are from photos, so is the road textures and the tunnel textures. Please keep in mind that converting the screens to .jpeg lost a LOT of quality. The game looks much sharper in real. I think the grass texture can be a lot better do you agree? And that N2O(Nitrous Oxide) Bottle texture is just horrible I know:) I have to fix that. Perhaps I can get an early demo out soon, that would probably be better for evaluating it.

Thanks anyways!

A HUGE improvement would be shadows, or at the very least directional lighting on the building/cars. Even a fuzzy fake shadow on trees etc would have a big impact on gfx. Btw flat tracks dont seem too fun :)

Originally posted by Vectrex
A HUGE improvement would be shadows, or at the very least directional lighting on the building/cars. Even a fuzzy fake shadow on trees etc would have a big impact on gfx. Btw flat tracks dont seem too fun :)

Thats a good idea about shadows. This is what I meant I can't compete with AAA titles feature wise. I don't have the right tools to make those beautifully rendered terrains that EA makes. I am after all just a 1-man army - but I'll try my best, maybe I CAN think of something.

what engine are you using? I'm trying out Ogre, looks very cool and easy to use, although not as complete as other engines since it's still quite new. Check out http://soccar.sourceforge.net/install.html it's graphics are pretty basic, but it's cool seeing his sourcecode for using ogre with ode physics and enet multiplayer

Originally posted by Henrik
[B]When the current PC and console racers look like this (http://www.gamespot.com/xbox/driving/nfsunderground/screens.html?page=7), it's of course pretty much impossible to compete visually as an indie.
http://lfs.racesimcentral.com/
*The* racing simulator, IMO. Developed by a team of 3 people, only one programmer.

Sure, the latest crop of arcadeish racers *do* look better than LFS, but I think that realistic physics are far more impressive than fancy-schmancy shader-only renderers. ;) And LFS doesn't look bad, either. :)

[edit] Erm, point being - indies *can* compete with retail titles, on any level. Being indie doesn't imply being unskilled.

Here are a couple of great articles on how they did the graphics in MotoGP and MotoGP2: (you may need to register with Gamasutra, but it's free and you should because they occasionaly post really great stuff)

http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20020626/hargreaves_01.htm
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20030813/hargreaves_01.shtml
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20030710/hargreaves_01.shtml (not about the graphics, but still interesting)

And yes, this stuff is very hard to do for indies, just because of the sheer amount of work involved.. implementing that lighting model could be done in a day, but writing their track editing tools and texture layer composition stuff.. lots of work..

I'm using my own homegrown engine(Which would explain why the game doesn't look the best ;) ) It's in early beta stages and I think I just thought of a good way to make my terrain bumpy - I'm not a big fan of heightmaps, I like to be in control which means I must model every hill and twist. :( Lots of work, but at least the game will be more fun in the end. I hope.

I was planning to do a remake of Stunts, but just a couple of weeks into the brainstorming phase, Crashday was announced... :(

Erm, point being - indies *can* compete with retail titles, on any level. Being indie doesn't imply being unskilled

I don't think he was implying that indies are unskilled, just that they're much more limited in resources when competeing against the big name companies like EA. Not to mention they don't usually have a 25-35 man team of programmers and artists working on the game.

Originally posted by Mman
Could you be a little more specific? Which textures do you mean.
Uhm... all of them. To me they look very low resolution and lacking in colors. Some of the objects (the police helicopter for example) look like they have a total of two or 3 colors in the entire texture. The road looks pretty much grey and white, etc. Look at the LSF screens for an example of what I would consider to be a pretty good road texture. I won't even get into the grass texture... It doesn't look like grass at all, it looks like a bunch of green spots, solid green would look better. Even though the trees are photosourced they look extremely pixelated and low color, like something out of Doom. I understand you want to support low power systems but even within your current texture size limits I think you can do better.

Some environment mapping on the cars would also help. Like it's been said before, shadows would help a lot also. Even some simple vertex lighting on the cars would be an improvement (it looked like they were just textured.) The car textures can be better overall.

Originally posted by Impossible
Uhm... all of them. To me they look very low resolution and lacking in colors. Some of the objects (the police helicopter for example) look like they have a total of two or 3 colors in the entire texture. The road looks pretty much grey and white, etc. Look at the LSF screens for an example of what I would consider to be a pretty good road texture. I won't even get into the grass texture... It doesn't look like grass at all, it looks like a bunch of green spots, solid green would look better. Even though the trees are photosourced they look extremely pixelated and low color, like something out of Doom. I understand you want to support low power systems but even within your current texture size limits I think you can do better.

Some environment mapping on the cars would also help. Like it's been said before, shadows would help a lot also. Even some simple vertex lighting on the cars would be an improvement (it looked like they were just textured.) The car textures can be better overall.

Oh boy, looks like I have lots of work to do. :( Thanks for the comments, I really appreciate it, it's hard to find people that will state the truth like you do.

Originally posted by Mman
Oh boy, looks like I have lots of work to do. :( Thanks for the comments, I really appreciate it, it's hard to find people that will state the truth like you do.
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound harsh. Your game doesn't look that bad and I think you can make it look a lot more polished and professional with just a few relatively small changes. The car models look good, especially considering they are pretty low polym they just need some texture work. Just play with using better quality textures for now and worry about implementing more difficult effects (shadows, environment mapping, etc.) later. It's more important that your car physics and your gameplay are good, but I think cleaning up the graphics a little and having a more polished look will get you a lot more sales. For some good sample textures check out this site: http://www.mayang.com/textures/. It has tons of free textures and I'm sure you'll be able to find something that can improve your game.

Wow, thanks for the site. I already found textures that will be useful!

Originally posted by Mman
Wow, thanks for the site. I already found textures that will be useful!
No problem, I can't wait to see screenshots with updated textures. Read the liscense carefully if you plan to use these textures in the final product. It's pretty lax, but I think you can only use 50 textures total and you have to give credit to the authors.

Mman, I'm also from Ottawa. Are you a student also? I myself am at Carleton U.

On your game: Your models are very low quality and I can't speak for your engine, but you lack some fundamental features such as a LOD system, terrain, detail textures, mipmapping, etc. The graphics you should be trying to reach and the game levels quality should be close to games like "Screamer" and "Cruisin'n USA" series.

AAA competition will wipe your selling chances online out if you don't have a real interesting gameplay niche (I see a police car and helicopter, so maybe if your game is a chase police game, it would help sales)

mogul.

Yes, I am also a student. I am just looking at universities, haven't decided on one yet.(It will probably be either Carleton or Ottawa U)

I know I lack a lot of features. I will slowly building those in. I plan to compete with 2 features 1. Low system requirements 2. Unique game play.

So I CAN model high poly cars, and 3D tress and 3D grass, but that will take away my 1st point of Low system reqs. I have already put in some new textures and Impossible was right, it makes all the difference in the world.

Also, as mentioned before, you should work on the lighting. Even with low system requirements, it is possible to have at least some sort of lighting in there. Because lighting would also make a world of difference.

Now, I know that you are just a single developer, and that it might be hard to accomplish by yourself, but you really should give it a go. If you need any specific pointers or tips on how to go about it, feel free to drop me an e-mail, I'll be happy to discuss these sort of things more in-depth.

Hey Mman, the engine is good for one man team. The reason why I could rattle off some features missing is that I have been spoiled using top third party 3D commercial engines in my projects. ;)

Since you are local to me, in Ottawa, how about we stay in contact? Check your private messages since I sent you one.

Originally posted by Mman
I have already put in some new textures and Impossible was right, it makes all the difference in the world. [/B]
Would you mind posting some new screens? I'd like to see them.

Don't worry too much about graphics btw. I think a fun arcade racer, something almost along the lines of mario cart in terms of simplicity, with a easy interface and low system requirements could be a hit. Especially among casual gamers and young kids that can't handle heavier simulation style racers.

A question regarding your transmission simulation:
I see a police car going 65 in neutral, and another car doing 250MPH in second gear. Or maybe that little box with the n and 2 doesn't indicate the gear... :)

Seriously, though, I wonder about your strategy.
AAA racing sim developers are going to target high-end systems and consoles. So, as an indie, you will target lower end systems.

But couldn't people just play the old Nascar Racing or the original Need for Speed on those system?

What I'm saying is that targeting low-end systems doesn't guaranty you a market. You have to do something with the gameplay and the price.

When GTA first came out, being chased by the cops in fast cars wasn't a unique feature. But being able to get out and take someone else's car made the game really fun. There were plenty of 3d racing games out, and 2d was going out of style, but they made a game EA would not have been able to at the time.


ggambett - I'm glad somebody's remaking stunts. I had so much fun making my own tracks. But the thing they probably won't be able to re-create is the broken physics. I spent a lot of time making tracks that would cause me to go 255MPH where a breakdown or overflow in their code would cause the car to shoot up into the air for no apparent reason.

Originally posted by SteveH
I don't think he was implying that indies are unskilled, just that they're much more limited in resources when competeing against the big name companies like EA. Not to mention they don't usually have a 25-35 man team of programmers and artists working on the game.
You don't need a 25 man team to write a competetive renderer. You do need them to build enough content to be able to compete on *that* level, though. I never said you can compete on all levels at once, just any one level.

There are free or very cheap solutions available for every (code related) bit of a modern game engine. I really don't see why would taking the free solutions and choosing one or more areas to build yourself be so out of reach for an indie developer, if that was what he wanted to do in the first place.

Mattias - Thanks I'll keep that in mind.
I'm not going to post any screen shots yet, till I get something worth posting. Maybe when I get closer to having a demo. The transmission works fine, it’s the speed-o-meter that is off. I am still thinking of a better way to do it. I think I'm going to stop developing for a while, and do some heavy research, perhaps try to find some unique gameplay elements that I can incorporate.

"But couldn't people just play the old Nascar Racing or the original Need for Speed on those system?"

They could, and people can also play the same asteroids and breakout game forever. Which means no other asteroids clone will sell. But people get board of playing the same game over and over.

Personally, one of the last things I would try as a budding independent developer is a 3-D racing game, but if I did, things would have to be a lot different. I would probably try to choose something other than cars as well... something that's not used too often in racing.

Since it's probably too late to change the vehicle, you'll have to think of many different things to attract players. Even if it were possible for you to do something better than the AAA titles you'd be chasing a dead end. Doing something different will get you more attention. There are too many other firsts in that genre. What you have to do is make your own "firsts" and I don't think it's impossible to think of them. They just may require a lot of development time.

I see a police chopper in one screenshot. Were you ever allowed to fly the chopper in the NFS games... are there any popular games that allow you to fly a police helicopter to catch criminals? What about car combat? That's been way overdone, especially Mariokart. I wouldn't even bother downloading a future demo of yours if it were a cart clone. I suggest trying a different direction.

How about allowing the player to paint or import their own textures onto the car? How about letting them post scores, stats and money earnings, (or whatever) online. How about allowing them to upload and trade car textures online. How about hiring a student artist to make some textures that could be downloaded from your site. How about new car models, upgrades etc? All of these thing have been done to some degree before. There's still the posibility of taking an old idea and making it better, but remember, it has to be different from the original idea; like being able to fly the police chopper instead just being chased by it. Maybe you could design the game from the cop's patrol perspective with a slight RPG or story mode. (This is wide open) See if you can change the game into something else, or add something entirely new. That's how suprise hits are made in stagnant categories.