To what kind of work and think level can the indie developer general profile be compared? Is it the level of "Bachelor".

Can you explain the question a bit more?

Yes, many jobs are compared to a skill level of education. I am curious to what kind of skill level the general indie developer can be compared. There are for instance IT jobs where a company asks a network specialist to have a diploma middle professional education in system/network manager direction and perhaps add with a training MCSE, and the skill level (skill = can be explained like how you think logic and how you work effective) of the person must be on a high level like "Bachelor". I use the term "bachelor", because international this title is used, to tell on what level you are educated. Bachelor stands for high professional education in the choosen direction (for instance Commercial Economics, Informatics, Translator, Nurse etc.). So the person don't need to have a High Professionial Education Diploma, but his skills must be equal. Mostly this can be arrange with for instance 3 > years relevant job experience and a diploma Middle Professional Education. When there is a network specialist with a diploma High Professional education in Informatics/Office automation and add with MCSE, also he got 3 > years relevant experience, the chance he will get the job is of course much bigger.

I don't this applies to ANY jobs, much less to one that stuff you learn in uni (most of them at least) play no direct role on your work.

I started making games at age 11 or 12, at age 15-16 I knew more C and relevant games math than many graduates I knew. At 17 I got a job at a small games company and at 19 I got a job as a professional games programmer for a deent big sized company. Also, I failed one year in highschool by the way.

I hate school and uni. I do NOT wish to be compared to a level of education where people can get there just by cheating or cramming and forgetting. Saying my knowledge is the same as a graduate in computer science is demeaning to me. (Note, I went to uni for 6 months (one semester), I dropped out cause I couldn't stand being taught a programming language (Haskell) for six months. I showed up to one class (first one) and then just picked an haskell book and learned the language by myself in a few days and passed that easily while most people in my class struggled to pass (half failed by the way). I'm no genious, but heck, 95% of the people in universtiy are idiots that get by by cheating or cramming.

You are right that (school) middle proffesional education and high professional education is mostly teaching the basics. I also experienced this. You learn when you work. And those experienced skills from your work can be compared to a level.

You are right that school education is mostly teaching the basics. You learn when you work. And those experienced skills from your work can be compared to a level.


If you say this, how can you compare the skills learned when doing a work with something that isn't taught in university? If school teaches the basics, and business the real job stuff, how can you compare the job stuff with a degree ? :) Unless you want to consider education by the volume instead of value :)

(btw, I didn't meant to diss any people with degrees here, I chose not to get one, but there are many folks with degrees that know their stuff, but unfortunally, have been there, most of the people I had contact with fall in the bad category)

Originally posted by Akura
If you say this, how can you compare the skills learned when doing a work with something that isn't taught in university? If school teaches the basics, and business the real job stuff, how can you compare the job stuff with a degree ? :) Unless you want to consider education by the volume instead of value :)


The fact is that this comparing of skill level is used. Especially for people who got much work experience, but not the diploma on Bachelor level, but a lower level. Companies know that these people are much worth (because of there much job experience) and perhaps more worth then someone who just got his Bachelor title without or lower experience. But the job level is on the level of bachelor. So I hope you understand what I am trying to make clear. Is that people with experience and a lower education then bachelor can also react on "Bachelor" level jobs.

I still don't understand (me is stupid :))

I kind of know what you mean, when you go to the job ads you see the level of education required, but I don't think you can say that you have that education based on experience. You can have x years of experience, but that doesn't mean you have the same level of education as a x degree, cause you won't. I have 2.5 years of experience programming games, but still except for programming and some maths (algebra and geometry) i'm well below someone with this kind of education in a computer sciece for the same time (various kinds of maths, etc etc etc) but he won't have the same experience as I do in the subject sI use everyday (C/C++).

I think it would be better to ask something like "what level of experience with language X does a programmer have to do to be an indie developer" and then change programer and language with whatever the job title requires.

Ar eyou by chace trying to hire someone ?? *hint* ME *hint* ^_^

For me, Think Level or degree or diploma does not mean anything. I have been writing small games for a long time and I never thought of a degree while programming. I just thought of finishing the game and playing!

But for people it is different. I got two jobs in the last 4 years and in both I showed my previous games in the interviews and they helped me a lot to get those jobs. But I also had a diploma. It had an effect as much as the productions I had made. The soul of it is not the degree, but it is a necessity.

I think an indie either successful or not, is a CEO! S/he is at the top position of a company ;) where most people will never experience that for a life time.

ergas

Originally posted by Akura
I still don't understand (me is stupid :))

I kind of know what you mean, when you go to the job ads you see the level of education required, but I don't think you can say that you have that education based on experience. You can have x years of experience, but that doesn't mean you have the same level of education as a x degree, cause you won't. I have 2.5 years of experience programming games, but still except for programming and some maths (algebra and geometry) i'm well below someone with this kind of education in a computer sciece for the same time (various kinds of maths, etc etc etc) but he won't have the same experience as I do in the subject sI use everyday (C/C++).

I think it would be better to ask something like "what level of experience with language X does a programmer have to do to be an indie developer" and then change programer and language with whatever the job title requires.

Ar eyou by chace trying to hire someone ?? *hint* ME *hint* ^_^

No, I am not hiring someone :) About the skill level, it's not equal to a degree (that's indeed never possible), but to the know how of a person, the way you think and work. And that is compared to a level.

Originally posted by johnson
To what kind of work and think level can the indie developer general profile be compared? Is it the level of "Bachelor".

When I first read this question, I thought the person was referring to the TV show "The Bachelor", since it was in quotes. "The Bachelor" is the dating show where some guy gets to pick among a couple dozen women.

Needless to say, that got me really, really confused.

I can say that indie developer life is nothing whatsoever like "The Bachelor" and really can't be compared to it. Pretty much on any work or think level.

I think I understand the original question. I have two B.S. degrees (one in comp sci and one in math). Both have little or nothing to do with indie development. If I had it to do all over again, I'd skip college altogether. Bill Gates and Michael Dell figured that out faster than I did.

In college you learn how to solve solvable problems. The problems are usually neat and clean around the edges. In the real world you must face problems where a solution may or may not exist. And by the time real-world techniques trickle down to the university level, the real world has often changed to render them obsolete. College attempts to teach people to become employees. You learn to respect authority, turn in your work on time, and play it safe to ensure you get good grades. But to be an entrepreneur, you need to do exactly the opposite -- think outside the box, challenge old assumptions, take calculated risks, etc. As an employee, you need merely decide how to do the work you are assigned. But the far greater challenge for entrepreneurs is deciding what projects should be done in the first place.

In college you are relatively safe and protected. Most assignments are structured to challenge only your intellect. But in the real world there are other forms of intelligence that are extremely powerful, including emotional and social intelligence. You can be very unintelligent emotionally and socially and breeze through college with straight As. But the real world is much more holistic. You can be book smart but fail utterly as an entrepreneur/indie if you don't have the brains to understand human nature.

So to answer the original question, being an indie developer is not the same think as holding a job... not by a long shot. I simply don't see how you can compare them in terms of the education level required. The intelligence needed for indie development wouldn't even be on the same scale as that needed for IT employees -- you'd need to add in a few more dimensions.

Originally posted by Dexterity
I think I understand the original question. I have two B.S. degrees (one in comp sci and one in math). Both have little or nothing to do with indie development. If I had it to do all over again, I'd skip college altogether. Bill Gates and Michael Dell figured that out faster than I did.

I'm starting to have doubts continuing my B.A., since youve confirmed what I was thinking all along.

I'm afraid this is becoming a habit for me -- I've had more than a few people tell me I convinced them to drop out of college. On the bright side, none have ever come back to tell me that it was the wrong decision. In fact, when I follow up, I generally find that people who do this are very happy with their choice.

In my nine years of running Dexterity, no one has ever asked to see my diploma -- currently it collects dust in a box in my garage.

When you're in college, it seems like graduating is the most important thing in the world. But when you get out, you realize that a degree just doesn't matter to your customers or your business partners. It's just a piece of paper.

If you want to be an employee, a degree can be important. But if you plan to be self-employed, it's worthless (except of course for certain professions like doctors and lawyers).

Originally posted by Dexterity
I'm afraid this is becoming a habit for me -- I've had more than a few people tell me I convinced them to drop out of college. On the bright side, none have ever come back to tell me that it was the wrong decision. In fact, when I follow up, I generally find that people who do this are very happy with their choice.


I dropped out of college after two years. Best thing I ever did.

While I'm an employee, I'm pulling down a salary well into six figures, and do side consulting at a couple hundred an hour. I have no doubt in my mind I'll be equally successful with my indie game development.

I haven't hit 30 yet. The future is bright, and looking back, it's because I left school. If I'd stayed, my life would be drastically different. I don't like to think about that much ;)

Originally posted by Dexterity
I'm afraid this is becoming a habit for me -- I've had more than a few people tell me I convinced them to drop out of college. On the bright side, none have ever come back to tell me that it was the wrong decision. In fact, when I follow up, I generally find that people who do this are very happy with their choice.

I'll be happy with whatever decision ill make, its a matter of how will I be happier. also, you wont find be coming back blaming it on you. the final verdict of deciding what to do is made by me, and when the day will come when ill make a decision by what people told me to do (and only because they told me) it will double the blame on me.

Originally posted by Dexterity
In my nine years of running Dexterity, no one has ever asked to see my diploma -- currently it collects dust in a box in my garage.

When you're in college, it seems like graduating is the most important thing in the world. But when you get out, you realize that a degree just doesn't matter to your customers or your business partners. It's just a piece of paper.

If you want to be an employee, a degree can be important. But if you plan to be self-employed, it's worthless (except of course for certain professions like doctors and lawyers).

The B.A. is mostly a plan B, which is if i wont make it asn indie, or that ill want to work both as an indie and part time.

still, i dont like the studies, thats why its Plan B

I got already my diploma for IT system manager. I will do perhaps MCSE, if I will start a computerservice company. The MCSE can in that case be a plus, because it contains the last relevant updates. But for the education on Bachelor level I decided to quit, it's not very practical that I can use the knowledge in my own company. So it's to my opinion a loosing of time, money and energy. By the way thanks for your replies.

Originally posted by johnson
I got already my diploma for IT system manager. I will do perhaps MCSE, if I will start a computerservice company. The MCSE can in that case be a plus, because it contains the last relevant updates. But for the education on Bachelor level I decided to quit, it's not very practical that I can use the knowledge in my own company. So it's to my opinion a loosing of time, money and energy. By the way thanks for your replies.

Even before i started my B.A. studies, i already knew it had nothing to do with the proffession i chose.

I have courses (and curses ;) ) of "Infinitsimal calculus", "discreet math", "Assembly for 8088", "Intro to CS and Pascal", "advanced programming with C"

mostly stuff that has absolutly no connection to what i'm going to do, or stuff that had anything to do but 5-10 years ago.

the only reason i'm doing this is because the degree is a measure to get what i want. i.e. i need the Degree papers to get a job. nothing more.

whats annoying is that i need to spend 4 years of my life (2.5 of them already wased) just for that line in my resume that i have BA in computer sciences. if i knew i get more productive or have more knowledge in cs, maybe i wouldnt rant like that.

if you want to learn for knowledge, take a book and go program way. proving do actually MADE something with the knowledge you claim you have, is much better.

Originally posted by Dexterity
If you want to be an employee, a degree can be important. But if you plan to be self-employed, it's worthless.

I have to strongly disagree. A college education is extremely useful. It really teaches you to think, and also has enormous social benefits for people between 18 and 22. If anyone is 18 and has the opportunity to go to college, they should take it.

I wish I'd stayed in college longer than my 6 years and picked up another degree, maybe an MBA or something like that. It would have been incredibly useful. As it was, I wouldn't trade my experience of 6 years in college and 8 years teaching it for anything. All right, maybe I would have liked to have made more money teaching.

I'm curious how college teaches people to think. How do you mean that? I agree that you can teach knowledge and skills, but how exactly do you teach a person to think? I think real-life does a better job of teaching that than college does.

I certainly didn't learn to think in college, nor did anyone try to teach me this. Most of the teaching efforts were directed at teaching me to do just the opposite: to listen, to obey, to solve problems the "standard" way. I didn't solve any new problems that hadn't already been solved by others years before. I learned a great deal about how other people thought, but no one tried to teach me how to think for myself. In fact, generally when I tried to think for myself in college, I either met with resistance, or my ideas were simply dismissed if they didn't fit in with the pre-established curriculum.

There are social opportunities in college to be sure. I made many friends and co-chaired the local ACM there. But I could get that socialization just as easily by joining a club or the local junior chamber of commerce. If I got a job instead, I'd have socialized with my co-workers too. No need to go to college just for that....

Both of my parents are college professors too. My mother has been teaching math all her adult life, and after retiring from aerospace work, my father has been teaching computer science too. Both have earned awards for their teaching excellence, but I don't believe they've ever taught anyone to think.

Originally posted by Dexterity
I certainly didn't learn to think in college, nor did anyone try to teach me this. Most of the teaching efforts were directed at teaching me to do just the opposite: to listen, to obey, to solve problems the "standard" way. I didn't solve any new problems that hadn't already been solved by others years before. I learned a great deal about how other people thought, but no one tried to teach me how to think for myself. In fact, generally when I tried to think for myself in college, I either met with resistance, or my ideas were simply dismissed if they didn't fit in with the pre-established curriculum.

That the most dicouraging aspect in my studies.
I keep getting homework and test back with big red pen errors claiming its wrong, while each time i prove to the TA that not only that its right, but my solution was better and more productive/less code/faster. what i get in response? the usual "if you say so" and the most annoying "next time, do it like they say in the book".

thats what i learnt in my 2.5 years in the uni. how NOT to think, and do what pleases my proffesors. which is mostly the slowest, illogical, most time/memory/resources consuming way.

but, hey, its in the books so it must be right!
[/rant]

University was quite a depressive time of my life (the one year I spent there). I'm not a people person so the social thing was nothing for me (although I was hoping to find a few "geeks" there, which I didn't). Most of the CS lecturers didn't know what they were teaching and enjoyed being nitpicks and they had quite a few errors in what they were lecturing.

This made me very frustrated because I came there expecting to learn a lot of interesting stuff. My expectations in combination with the lousy lecturers caused me to be quite mean to the lecturers sometimes. This is something I have realized afterwards.

I don't know how difficult it is to get a good job without a degree, but I figured I would gain more from experience, learning on my own, than wasting my time in the university environment. And besids, I've always felt like the purpose of school was showing other people what you knew, not learning what you want to learn.

Hmm... I really strayed of the subject this time...

Originally posted by gilzu
That the most dicouraging aspect in my studies.
I keep getting homework and test back with big red pen errors claiming its wrong, while each time i prove to the TA that not only that its right, but my solution was better and more productive/less code/faster. what i get in response? the usual "if you say so" and the most annoying "next time, do it like they say in the book".

thats what i learnt in my 2.5 years in the uni. how NOT to think, and do what pleases my proffesors. which is mostly the slowest, illogical, most time/memory/resources consuming way.

but, hey, its in the books so it must be right!
[/rant]

I agree about this. When I finished my education for IT system manager, another IT student experienced the same as you. He told in the class to the teacher that it was easier to carry out an installation of Windows NT server 4.0 on method X, but the teacher got a bit angry and said NO, it must be on method Y. The teacher didn't explain why. The experienced IT student was right by the way. So this is also a prove. One positive point about the education is that I learned my self how to solve problems and get logical skills. Nobody of the teachers are helpfull to get you to that point. For me is that I am an IT specialist thanks to my education. But my true ambition is to live from developed shareware as an indie.

He told in the class to the teacher that it was easier to carry out an installation of Windows NT server 4.0 on method X, but the teacher got a bit angry and said NO, it must be on method Y. The teacher didn't explain why.
I used to press the teachers to motivate their statements when they were wrong either until they admitted it or until they "dropped the subject". I have noticed that a lot of the students seems to lose their respect for the teacher at this point.

I was hired full time at Microsoft in my second year of college. I don’t think college was particularly useful for me in getting hired. I did finish it however, but mostly because I’m stubborn. I pride myself in finishing what I start. I would agree that most of what I was "taught" in college was pure crap. If it was even the least bit relevant I had already had some experience in it in the workplace long before it showed up in one of my classes.

There are certain things that were of great value to me though. First there would be the relationships I formed. I still meet with one or two of my professors even though I’ve been graduated for a few years now. I would say that they in some ways became roll models for me. I met a great number of interesting people in college whom i respected and also earned their respect. Every job I have had has come from me knowing someone who worked at the employer.

College forced me to discipline my rather un-disciplined mind, as that was the only way to be successful in that system. I learned how to take big problems and break them down into small manageable parts. Living in a house with 24 other guys taught me social skills and how to get along with people in close quarters. I learned the pride that comes from a job well done. While these things aren’t necessarily the exclusive domain of college, college was a nice "safe" environment in which to learn them. I will say that none of the above things that I learned in college were ever taught to me by any teacher.

Is college a requirement for, or an advantage toward success in the "real world". Naa, but all in all I'd say it's a worth exercise. My advice would be, don't go to college to do what your already good at. (aka programming and math) Go do something that will enrich your life, art, history, political science, heck.. even dance. Then you will have to grow in some way that you wouldn't have otherwise and you'll still take away all the intangible benefits of college, like discipline and stick-to-it-iveness.

I'm sure one can learn the above skills that I picked up while in college, outside of college. But I didn't take that route so I can't really attest to that.

Originally posted by Dan MacDonald
My advice would be, don't go to college to do what your already good at. (aka programming and math) Go do something that will enrich your life, art, history, political science, heck.. even dance. That's pretty much what I did. I knew I'd come out of college and get work with computers, so why bother with a C.S. degree? My parents were pretty insistent that I go to college, so I chose English with a focus on writing. At the time writing (especially fiction) was one of my favorite activities, so to be exposed in an environment where I could do this all the time and other folks would "keep me honest" was a good experience. However, I have to agree that for the most part I didn't really learn a lot there, it was just an excuse to practice my writing. :) Getting a job out of college was difficult, so I took a temp job at a small company packing boxes. The people in the desktop publishing department got to know me and hired me a few months later. After that there was an opening in system administration. After that I networked my way through three more companies. If you know your stuff, networking is more important than a C.S. degree. However, having any degree is probably better than none just to get past the HR department, or get your foot in the door.

I must say I am in the same boat as most of the people here. I was very lucky in the fact that my High School hired me to do a computer support / network administrator role. I basicly had to learn and implement multiple NT servers and workstations, secure them against high school students and keep them running well. I learnt more about computers, prioritsing tasks, customer / people relations and general life skills in that six months than I did doing "college" (we call in university over here) part time for two years. After two years of part time study I decided to throw it away. It was a hard, but doing my degree for another six years or spending my time doing other things, such as socializing, sport, teaching myself to program, art won out in the end. I have a couple of industry qualifications now, and I am looking at doing a MCSE and/or some Sun qualifications (my new job has me working with Sun Unix now) but no degree. It hasn't hampered me finding jobs and if anything it has helped me a lot. When I have asked employers why they hired me most of them have said when I answered the question "Why have you not completed a diploma ?" with "I was lucky enough to get a industry job when I was young and comparing what I have learnt from working to what I am learning at Uni I felt it was a waste of time" they felt that my experence without a degree was still very good.

Now saying all this my "full time" job currently is a Network Administrator at a large manufactoring company. I'm only 24 and have had a number of contract jobs before my current position. I am looking at moving into producing shareware games, with my ultimate goal of doing that full time. Now it may be different if your doing programming for a job as an employee for a company. You may get a lot out of a degree if your learning to program. Personally I feel I can learn better on my own as I think College makes you learn things more parrot fashion than lateral thinking. By this I mean I was getting great marks at College learning whole chunks of information and spewing it back out again phrased in a different way. Did I learn much ? No, not really. Was I doing really well ? Yes I was.

A degree is a piece of paper. There are many different pieces of paper out there that you can get. The majority of the time they are heaps more applicable than a degree. If one industry realizes that more than any other it's the IT industry.

Good Luck with what ever you decide.

Crispie

Originally posted by elund
That's pretty much what I did. I knew I'd come out of college and get work with computers, so why bother with a C.S. degree?

Heh, try to explain to your parents you don't need a C.S. degree and you just want to take a japanese studies degree and if they are anything like mine, they won't speak to you until you change you r mind, and since you probably can't afford it yourself, you will change your mind :) (I still don't understand what's so wrong with a degree in jap studies... but heck.. parents :)

Originally posted by Akura
Heh, try to explain to your parents you don't need a C.S. degree and you just want to take a japanese studies degree and if they are anything like mine, they won't speak to you until you change you r mind, and since you probably can't afford it yourself, you will change your mind :) (I still don't understand what's so wrong with a degree in jap studies... but heck.. parents :)

If your parants are the ONLY reason youre doing a degree, then youre in a deeper trouble than you thought.

There is also an age point beyond which the results obtained from a college degree slowly diminish. I started in college back in -95 and learned Java the same year. Work opportunities were springing up all around the place and it was easy to get a decent job. Work experience was also a big hindrance when completing the courses. Many times the real world wasn't acting like the sandbox world which college courses presented.

Now I have a 2/3 complete degree. In the beginning I attended lectures for a few hours before realizing that just going to the exam was much easier. I did four years of teaching at the university, so I have actually taugh many times the hours I have spent learning there.

At this point I am running a working indie business that is taking off the ground. I prefer spending my precious free time with my SO or doing a hobby. The only real uses I can see for a degree is as an emergency parachute, but honestly I think my work experience weights a lot more. I will probably complete the degree, but currently the returns from it are quite slim.

I did however attend all the cool parties in the late nineties, so I definetly got the social benefits from the higher education .. :)

Another point, I find very silly is that most people in society think that a degree tells how intelligent a person is. I find that very dumb, because it isn't motivated. Steve told it already, that some of the richest people in the world don't have a degree. I read a couple years ago, something similar in an article, that most succesfull business owners are not impressed by college and most quit, because they see it as a wasting of time. They could spend there time better to set up a growing business. My opinion is that indie developers in general are thinking the same about this. And this is well motivated, why a degree is worthless in our case.

Originally posted by johnson
Another point, I find very silly is that most people in society think that a degree tells how intelligent a person is. I find that very dumb, because it isn't motivated. Steve told it already, that some of the richest people in the world don't have a degree. I read a couple years ago, something similar in an article, that most succesfull business owners are not impressed by college and most quit, because they see it as a wasting of time. They could spend there time better to set up a growing business. My opinion is that indie developers in general are thinking the same about this. And this is well motivated, why a degree is worthless in our case.

hehehe
most Dr. and Proff. i know, are the epitomy of stupidity.

To be honest, I find this thread a bit disturbing. Dropping out of college is pretty serious stuff, not to be taken lightly.

Re: "the piece of paper"
A degree is so much more than just a piece of paper. For one, it proves you can finish something. SteveP excluded, most people who downplay the importance of a degree don't have one. Remember, we make decisions based on emotion and attempt to justify them with facts. Bill Gates dropped out of Havard, not a community college- which showed that he's brighter than most of us, because he got into Harvard in the first place.

While it's true that the typical courses will not make you a good developer, the degree will likely help you land a job that WILL make you a good developer- that's how it worked for me.

He told in the class to the teacher that it was easier to carry out an installation of Windows NT server 4.0 on method X, but the teacher got a bit angry and said NO, it must be on method Y. The teacher didn't explain why. Installing NT server sounds like something done at a community college or technical trade school, not a university, where they tend to focus on more theoretical concepts and programming methods. I seriously doubt that many university professors would pigeonhole thought processes like that. My university professors encouraged and rewarded unique methods for solving problems.

I will probably get flamed for this, but it's a fact that most indie game developers will fail the first time, and probably never make it as an indie. What then? A degree certainly won't hurt you as an indie developer, and if something bad happens, you always have that to help you get a job.

Now let's look at the regular posting members here. Who is making a TRUE full-time living at this? I am sure I am leaving people out here, but the ones that come to mind are: SteveP, ThomasW, SteveV, and myself. Guess what we all have in common? We all have degrees.

I think this really compares to a popular debate about professional sports. Many kids are trying to go straight from high school to play professional basketball the NBA. There are several superstars who have made the jump: Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Tracy MacGrady, and others. But for every one of those, there are 3 more who never make it in the league, and in the process, blew their chance at a scholarship to a major university. Most people agree that the superstars still would have been the same if they went to school- they just got there faster. But what about the ones who didn't make it- they lost out on a great opportunity.

As far as college life goes, I don't know where everyone went, but for me, it was a wonderful experience. Perhaps it was because I "fit in", but whatever the reason, it really helped me in more ways than I can count. I made many friends for life, including my wife. I wouldn't trade my experience for anything in the world. For the record, I have a B.S. in theoretical computer science with a math minor from Northern Illinois University- not exactly MIT :) So maybe I am juist like the people advocating dropping out, in that I am encouraging people to be like me. But seriously, I see countless reasons to stick it out and get one.

As far as college life goes, I don't know where everyone went, but for me, it was a wonderful experience. Perhaps it was because I "fit in", but whatever the reason, it really helped me in more ways than I can count.
Could you please tell how to "fit in"? =) Because I've never felt I "fitted in" anywhere, ever. I'm just a bit curious about how people do that.

I think the main reason to get a degree is if a degree is consistent with achieving one's goals. But how many people are really clear about their goals when they first enter college? How many are equally certain that earning a degree is the best use of the next several years of their life?

If you aren't clear about your goals, should you still earn a degree then? I think that's a tremendous waste of life. If you aren't clear about your goals, then you should take the time to get clear about your goals before wasting time on a potentially useless degree (unless you think going to college is exactly what you need to figure out what you want to do). But since college forces people to make a decision about which degree to earn, it's a very high-pressure way of trying to figure out one's goals. And it usually fails. 80% of college grads end up working in a field outside their major. I'm sure some people don't see this as failure, but is it really worth four years of someone's life to get a degree if there's an 80% chance they won't even work in that field? Heck, I do work in the same field as my degree, and I still think it was a wasted effort.

Taking college-level classes can be a great way to explore one's goals, but there's no need to go after a degree to do this. I commonly attend seminars and read lots of books to broaden my education. This way I gain the knowledge I want, but I don't need a piece of paper to validate me. Nor do I need to do pointless assignments or take tests to prove what I already know.

I think if someone says, I want a degree because it's good to have just in case I need to get a job someday, then that person isn't really too clear about what they want to do with their life. You could just as easily apply that "just in case" thinking to other areas like relationships -- Maybe I should get married just in case I want to have kids later. As an insurance policy, a degree is very overpriced. There are far cheaper and less time consuming ways to hedge against a personal financial downturn. I can think of many better ways to invest four years than getting a degree. Imagine doing four years of dedicated interpersonal networking; you'd have such a powerful network that you'd be able to get a job in a heartbeat... no degree needed. Most jobs are filled through personal connections, but over 50% of these "connections" are merely acquaintenances, not close friendships. (Source of that stat = The Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell).

I know many people go to college to find themselves. But again, college isn't designed for that. College was originally designed to train people to work in a particular trade.

If you aren't certain about what you want to do with your life, skip college and spend more time getting to know the real world and yourself. Read lots of different books, work in many different types of jobs in different industries, network with lots of different people, and travel extensively. Eventually you will figure out what you really want to do with your life, and then you can decide whether or not you'll need a degree to pursue it. If you decide you really want to be an attorney, then by all means go to law school. If you want to start a new business, you may decide that getting an MBA is the best choice for you; in that case, by all means go for it.

But taking four years to get a degree "just in case?" College isn't designed as an insurance policy. Degrees are terribly overpriced when used as insurance policies, and they often don't pay off. Treating a degree like an insurance policy seems mostly like gambling to me when the odds are heavily stacked against you.

If anyone feels it necessary to get a CS degree "just in case," then come work for Dexterity for four years for free instead. I won't even charge tuition, and I can guarantee that the experience will be worth more than a piece of paper from a university. I'll even throw in two free bonuses: a glowing letter of recommendation and your own Dweep doll. :)

Thank you Mike Boeh,

this is exactly what I think. You have to have a plan B, and that's to get a normal job. If you don't have a degree you won't get any good jobs (this is the case in Finland).
I'm supprised that so many people think that a degree is waste of time.

University is not college. The university I go to doesn't teach you how to use NT etc. It teches you for instance how to make an elevator (software and hardware) which is stuff way beyond any normal programming. To give an example on what we read:

Book at amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/155860832X/qid=1062097541/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-2102199-3592127?v=glance&s=books)

University teches you also math. I'm sure you don't need much math in the real world, but if you study math a lot, you will also teach your brain how to better solve logical problems.


Simon Björklund

Having a plan B is great. Getting a degree is generally a very poor choice for a plan B though. It's more like a plan F.

*Pops head in*

Applying to university seemed like a good idea at the time.

I'm currently debating whether or not I should go back and do my third (and final, hurrah!) year. I pretty much gave up towards the end of last year, and ended up having to redo two pieces of work during the summer.

I don't see it as a complete waste of time, as I've learnt a few valuable lessons. If I'm honest with myself though, the only reason I'm going back is to do a thesis (as the subject interests me) and to get the loan money so I can go back to America...yes, I'm a student low life :P Plus my parents are paying and seeing as they've paid for two years I don't really want to let them down. I know I'm doing it for the wrong reasons.

The one advantage is that I get a lot of free time, so that's helping me on my quest to become an indie developer!

heh, look,

I could say the same for graduation diploma. I know now that 80% of what i learnd in highschool was a complete waste, and that i could've lernd more myself. same for university (at least here).

but there are more pluses than minuses for me that keeps me in there.

1. I don't pay a single penny for my uni studies. part of the social insurance, that when i have this amount of disability (90% for chrohns disease complications) the Social insurance has a program that instead of giving u disability allowance, they pay for your education (1st degree in my case). cool, isnt it?

2. bank gives you (way...) better mortage and loan rates when you have a degree. you can think why for yourself.

3. I do expect to find a part time job no matter how my indie carrer will turn up. something with the social interaction at work that draws me towards it. Stability, Social interaction, Technical interaction (no offence people, but knowing some in my area to meet everyday is something to appriciate) and more. for that, I'm gonna need the degree for many reasons that were written in this thread.

4. There's some social status that comes with having a degree. many of my friends learn with me, not being with them for me is the same as hanging around highschool people when youre in grade school. same with interaction with people i dont know. they look at you more seriusly when you have a degree. when i started programming without one, i got no feedback at all but contempt. now that i'm a student at the uni, they show way more interest.

Originally posted by Dexterity
I'll even throw in two free bonuses: a glowing letter of recommendation and your own Dweep doll. :)

I want that furry thing in my car!!! please please please!!!

I don't have a degree. I spent a couple years in college, then dropped out to work full time, write a book, and try to become a rock star. I didn't know what I really wanted to do until after I turned 25. If I'd gotten the degree that I was going to get, it would have been a huge waste of time and money, as all of my interests changed roughly two years after I was scheduled to finish.

I don't have any problems getting jobs, even without the degree, but I know lots of people with degrees that I would not hire. A degree is not a free ride into a job. I agree with Steve. If you aren't sure what you want to do with your life, college is a terrible place to figure it out. You should, instead, play around with your passions, put time into them, and find out where they lead. Then, once you figure out what you want to do, get a degree if it's necessary.

I was at an entrepreneurship class a couple months ago, and the subject of a college education came up. According to the instructor (and the materials handed out in the class), the statistics show that the farther you go with your education, the less likely it is that you will succeed at being an entrepreneur. My guess as to why is that college teaches you how to be an employee.

I'm not saying anyone in college should drop out, and in fact, I wish I had a degree, but if it won't help you achieve your goals, I believe there are better things you can do with your time.

Originally posted by Dexterity
Having a plan B is great. Getting a degree is generally a very poor choice for a plan B though. It's more like a plan F.

But what is plan C, D and E?

I can only come up with these two:

A. Run an own business
B. Get a job. I don't know how important a degree is in USA, but in Finland a degree helps A LOT.

Originally posted by Mike Boeh
To be honest, I find this thread a bit disturbing. Dropping out of college is pretty serious stuff, not to be taken lightly.


Yes, Thanks, Mike, this thread was getting very depressing.

A college education is going to help you throughout life. It will help you make more money. Yes, there are exceptions. But Bill Gates and Michael Dell are not normal people. On average, people who have college educations make more money than those who don't. It's not arguable. Every study shows it.

Steve said
College was originally designed to train people to work in a particular trade.

This is just wrong, and it is a complete misunderstanding about what college is. College is not a trade school (not that there's anything wrong with trade schools, those are very useful too).

College is designed to give you an education. At best it gives you well rounded education in many different topics. A good college will require you to take courses outside of your major area so that you learn about many different things. The more you know about more areas of human knowledge, the better off you are.

College does not force you to decide on your goals. You don't need to know what you want to do in life when you go to college, and just because you may end up in a job different from what you majored in does not mean that your college was wasted. Steve's doing an *extremely* flawed cost benefit analysis of college that, frankly, could not possibly be more wrong.

I didn't know what I wanted to do when I was in college. I wound up majoring in math, because with a math degree you can do anything. College is not about getting a piece a paper so you can get a job, it's about learning things, just like high school and elementary school is, but more advanced.

If you want to talk about things in terms of achieving your goals, nothing could cut off more possible goals for a young person than to decide not to go to college. If they go to college, just about everything is open to them. If they do not, vast areas of possible goals that they might want to achieve will be closed forever.

I would say that if you want to succeed in life, dropping out of college would have to be the absolute stupidest thing you could do.

Originally posted by goodsol

A college education is going to help you throughout life. It will help you make more money. Yes, there are exceptions. But Bill Gates and Michael Dell are not normal people. On average, people who have college educations make more money than those who don't. It's not arguable. Every study shows it.


If your goal is to be average/normal or within one standard deviation of it, getting a degree may help you get there (which is basically nowhere). If you want more than that though, I don't think it's too terrible to model the choices of the exceptional performers like Gates and Dell. The first American billionaire (Henry Ford) and the first internet billionaire (Jim Clark) were both high-school drop-outs too.

Just how much demand is there for average/normal people in this world? If you're going in for open heart surgery, do you want an average surgeon? If you get arrested, do you want an average attorney defending you? Do you want an average spouse, average children, average health?

It's well known where being average leads... to retirement with no money and probably a lot of debt, followed by a 90% chance of death from either cancer or heart disease. Every study shows it. :)


This is just wrong, and it is a complete misunderstanding about what college is. College is not a trade school (not that there's anything wrong with trade schools, those are very useful too).

College is designed to give you an education. At best it gives you well rounded education in many different topics. A good college will require you to take courses outside of your major area so that you learn about many different things. The more you know about more areas of human knowledge, the better off you are.


But college isn't needed for any of this. You are talking about college, while I'm talking about getting a degree. There's nothing wrong with taking college classes if you feel that's the best way to learn.

You can't really give someone an education. The root of the word educate means "to bring out." Education is something people must pursue for themselves. It's fairly easy to attend college, earn a degree, and yet not be educated. College is a tool people can use to educate themselves, but it's powerless by itself.

When I attended college, the GE requirement was about 45% of all the required units. I had to take classes like art history which I thought were a waste of time. If the professor was a poor teacher, I was stuck with him/her for the semester. If a slow student asked a dumb question, I had to wait to hear the answer. If I wanted to pursue a portion of the material in more depth, too bad because the class was now onto something else. If I felt an assignment was pointless, too bad because I still had to do it for the degree. The things I learned outside my major to broaden my horizons weren't due to classes I took in college. They were things I pursued on my own, like time management, philosophy, health, etc. A semester-long college class on any of these subjects can be condensed into a weekend of self-education, and retention will be higher.

I agree that college attempted to make me more well-rounded, in the sense that well-rounded = less sharp. Perhaps there are a few colleges that are so flexible that there are no required courses, and people can take whatever courses they want and still come out with a degree. I don't know of any colleges like that in my area. Most will dictate at least some kind of curriculum, and that's where they conflict with flexible self-directed, goal-oriented education.


College does not force you to decide on your goals. You don't need to know what you want to do in life when you go to college, and just because you may end up in a job different from what you majored in does not mean that your college was wasted. Steve's doing an *extremely* flawed cost benefit analysis of college that, frankly, could not possibly be more wrong.

I didn't know what I wanted to do when I was in college. I wound up majoring in math, because with a math degree you can do anything. College is not about getting a piece a paper so you can get a job, it's about learning things, just like high school and elementary school is, but more advanced.


I have a math degree too. But I can't really do anything with it. It doesn't enable me to practice medicine or law, for instance, so if I wanted to be a doctor or lawyer, my CS and math degrees won't help me much there. I can do just about as much with my degrees as I can without them. And if I invested that degree-earning time more wisely, I'd be better off for it.

Again, I'm talking about getting a degree, not the concept of getting an education. There's nothing wrong with attending college if you feel that's the best way to learn what you want to learn. But putting aside what you've learned, does the degree itself do anything for you? My degrees do nothing for me. I did learn some things in college; however, I could just as easily have learned them from reading books or networking with people in those fields, and it would have taken me less than 10-20% of the time. This, of course, is how I educate myself today, and I know you read a lot of books too. I'm sure by now I have the equivalent of several Ph.Ds in terms of my education, given that I've read over 500 books since graduating from college, but I don't have any fancy paper to show for it. Going for the papers would have cost me about 80% of my actual education. And that's too big a price to pay.

So if I can learn things faster on my own than by working through a degree program (which is inherently less flexible than private learning), how is the cost benefit of going to college justified? It just seems to quadruple the time it takes to learn anything.

By its very nature, group schooling is an inefficient way to learn. While there are some social benefits that can't be gotten individually, it's a hideously slow way to learn academic subjects. I found that out firsthand when I challenged myself to see how much I could speed up the process, which enabled me to graduate in only three semesters with two B.S. degrees. I wrote an article (http://www.dexterity.com/articles/do-it-now.htm) about that a few years ago. But even those three semesters were a waste -- I could have learned the same material in just one semester on my own if I didn't care about the degree. Wish I'd understood this back then....


If you want to talk about things in terms of achieving your goals, nothing could cut off more possible goals for a young person than to decide not to go to college. If they go to college, just about everything is open to them. If they do not, vast areas of possible goals that they might want to achieve will be closed forever.

I would say that if you want to succeed in life, dropping out of college would have to be the absolute stupidest thing you could do.

In that case I wish I'd been more stupid when I made the decision to go to college. :) I'd be a lot better off today.

The ranks of high school drop-outs don't look too bad to me either: Albert Einstein, Jim Clark (first internet billionaire), Andrew Jackson, W. Clement Stone, Cher, Peter Jennings, Louis Armstrong, Lucille Ball, Humphrey Bogart, Whoopie Goldberg, Patrick Stewart, Roy Rogers, Tommy Lasorda, Charlie Chaplin, Sean Connery, Robert de Niro, John D. Rockerfeller, Henry Ford, Walt Disney, Abraham Lincoln, Carl Sandberg, Princess Diana, Andrew Carnegie, Mark Twain, Christopher Columbus, Charles Dickens, Thomas Edison, Benjamin Franklin, Elton John, Jerry Lewis, Ray Kroc, William Shakespeare, Frank Sinatra, George Washington, Thomas Paine, Orville & Wilbur Wright, and many, many more.

Morons, the lot of them, right?

So what if all these people took your advice, finished high school, and then went to college instead of pursuing their passion. Say goodbye to automobiles, the theory of relativity, Captain Picard, James Bond, Disneyland, the United States, electricity, the light bulb, McDonalds (ok, no big loss there), and airplanes. If that isn't a whopping cost to pay for a college education, I don't know what is. How can this world possibly do without Captain Picard? ;)

So apparently getting a standard high school and college education isn't necessary for success. It's obviously not sufficient for success either, but if you have the passion to follow your dreams on your own, there's a good chance that staying in school will only delay (and possibly kill) your dreams.

Sure college may help you go from average to slightly above average, so if that's the path you want to take, then go for it.

But don't be too concerned if you drop out of school early to pursue your dreams. You can always do as Andrew Carnegie did and build a whole bunch of libraries and museums, such that ironically your name will become heavily linked to education. Then you can help train lots of employee-mindset people to work in all the jobs you've created.

I'm pleased to see that this topic has sparked such an interesting debate. It will surely give those in college right now a lot to think about. What to do about college isn't a decision to be made lightly, but it isn't a decision that others should make for you either. Life is too precious to spend traveling the wrong path for you.

Ok, just to clarify I don't think Uni is a bad thing, I just don't think you need to go to be successful. If you want to have a job at a leading games / software publishing house or you want to work on software for companies then I would say, yes go to College. It will help you achieve that goal. Do you need a degree to be successful in life ? No. I know heaps of tradesmen that make a very, very good living and they do not have a degree. I know a lot of people in the IT industry (mainly system admins, network admins) who are successful and do not have degree's. To be happy and live comfortably is what I call success. Two things I think are way, way more important than a degree?

Goals and Motivation.

If you have goals and you have motivation you will be a success no matter if you have a degree or not.

Recently I was lucky enough to be included in the hiring and interview process for extra support positions. There were nearing hundreds of applicants. Out of the three positions available (Roughly Level 4 Computer and Network Support) two went to people without degrees. At the moment I am running through with these guys about using the help desk software and all that stuff and the thing I have found with all three is they are really motivated. The two who haven't done a degree said that they don't ever want to, as they have had better experiences getting work on their industry qualifications that recognise experience, the one who has done his degree said it was a waste of time and the only reason he finished was because he is stubborn and wanted to see it through.

Now this is just the support side of IT, however I have noticed the game development, both commercial and "indie" shares a lot of common ground. Both sections of IT regard experience highly. If you want to get up through the ranks you have to put in the hard yards and make your projects / job successful. Most people get in and work for a while and do not see results straight away, get disheartened and either find a new job or don't work as hard and stay at the same level. It's just a fact of life, if your motivated and you want to get somewhere you have to put in.

When I went through the interview processes above here is something common I found with a lot of the applicants, more so the people with degrees. Most (not all) of the applicants with degree's came across like they knew everything and that they would walk straight into one of the positions cause they had a degree. We do our interviews a little differently where we actually get people to go through some common general computer issues. A lot of them knew squat and there was no way that they were up to the job requirements. With the first applicants I tried to tell them this (in a nice way !!) and most of them looked at me as if to say, "pfft what would you know ?". Now I know I am young, I know I don't know everything and I want to learn. But some people really get on my nerves when they talk to me like a two year old just because I don't have a degree, or they think they know everything and I know nothing (The two seem to share common ground).

Sorry I'm starting to go off on a tangent here anyways to wrap up the big weird post:

Don't waste your time with a degree if it is not going to help you learn. If you have goals and motivation you will succeed.

I was chatting with DavidRM about this thread and he made an interesting comment. He said "If someone doesn't expect to learn anything from college, their better off not going"

I found this to be very interesting because it really speaks to the heart of what someone can get from going to college. Like most things in life, college is what you make of it. If you try to cram 2 degrees into 3 semesters, college is likely going to seem like an exercise in bureaucratic hoop jumping, and for you that's all it would be. If all your in college for is the degree, and I met many people like this in college, then you’ve missed the point entirely.

The people who get straight A's in college, follow all the rules and graduate according to schedule with their precious CS degree are often the people who are joked about in software development organizations. They know a little java, a little python, had one class in C and another in C++. If you ask them to write a tool that could actually be used in the workplace they haven’t a clue where to start, they need to be told what to do every 5 min because they have a hard time thinking for themselves. But hey if you want to know the O( n ) runtime complexity of heapsort, they'll have the answer for you in a jiffy.

A lot of what steve says is true, if you want to learn the classroom is a really poor place to learn. It's slow, often the content is academic and mundane. In college I learned the most from hanging out with my professors, I'd write the program and then go talk to them about it during office hours, I often gained valuable insights into how they approached problems, broke them down, and solved them.

Also, the connections you make in college, if you take the time to form them, can have a big impact on your life. People who see the world differently then you can often teach you things about yourself that you didn't know previously. Also college is a great place to "learn how to learn". One of the most critical success factors for a programmer is their ability to learn new technologies and adapt quickly to new information. If you just do the required homework for your classes and no more, you really won’t have a good understanding of things. But if you throw yourself into it, expand the programs, make applications on your own time; you really will learn new things.

The information that you "learn" in your classes is really very limited, I went to college hoping that the knowledge I gained there would open up a new door to further understanding. Unfortunately that never occurred for me, and for a lot of people. However there is value in the side affects of college, "learning to learn", "Discipline", "role models", "introspection", and so on. Unfortunately if you go to college with the wrong attitude you can miss out on all these benefits. In the end though, I value what I gained in college, and in some ways it was a lot better then setting me out in the real world at age 18, I just wasn't mature enough for that. And to a certain extent college forces you to mature and take responsibility. In Steve’s case, he says he could have learned productivity, philosophy, and health on his own. But without the impetus of college would he have been so motivated to do it? I don't know, it's hard to say.

I guess the real question, are all the benefits worth $10-$100k?(depending on where you go). I still owe $10k in student loans, was it really worth THAT much money? I wish i knew, it would be nice to be able to compare with a mirror version of myself that didn't go to college. But until that happens, I’m not loosing any sleep over it. College was an enjoyable, exciting, and challenging time in my life.


EDIT*****

Thomas, you say Steve's Cost benifet analysis is flawed, could you perhaps point out where? or provide your own cost benifet analysis? I want to understand your perspective on the issue better....

You have some good points, Dan. I agree that I didn't go to college primarily to learn the academic material. Actually, if I had been mature enough at the time to think of it that way, I wouldn't have attended. I was largely going for a challenge, and I knew that 12-15 units a semester just wasn't going to challenge me enough. I altered the experience of college to shoehorn it into a growth experience for me in a way that it wasn't really intended to be (I certainly met with a good deal of resistance trying to do so). So in a way I did use college for education, but on my own terms. I took triple the "normal" course load to teach myself to manage my time, stress, life balance, etc. And those lessons have served me well. So in that sense going to college did serve my goals, which had little to do with the academic material being taught. Even so, I think I'd have been better off taking on such challenges in a job or in running my own business, since those have been better teachers for me.

I dropped out of college recently so I figure I'd throw in my 2 cents.

My college goals involved dropping out of the most prestigious college possible. With hard work, I got the chance to drop out of Stanford or Berkeley. I chose Berkeley.

I am proud to be called a Berkeley dropout. At the same time, I realize that college can be a great place. My honest suggestion would be to check it out for a year to get a different experience.

Like traveling or reading books or working, college provides an interesting insight into the workings of the world. However, I feel that one can gain the benefits of that experience within a year.
(If you really enjoy the college experience, drop out and spend time living near the campus working with folks on various projects for a few years.)

As mentioned in previous postings, one can learn a lot through experience and books. The real question is whether you are committed to being a life-long learner. That is the difference between an Einstein and most other high school dropouts. As long as one commits to a level of discipline that includes constant learning experiences -- one will be fine without a degree.

Degree or no degree -- results matter the most. As long as you can produce them, most folks will not care about your "credentials". The companies that do care about "credentials" will probably be headed for rough times (yes, I know the last statement is a broad generalization so take it for what it's worth).

In any case, I wish you best of luck. Remember...the question is not whether you should get a degree....it's whether you plan to be a life-long learner. If you don't care to pursue personal curiosity...don't plan to pursue your passion ... don't plan to set and reach goals...then stay in school!

Note: I could be more detailed/precise in my wording -- but I didn't want to extend this into a 10-page essay :)

This is a tough call. Because for myself personally, I probably wouldn't do the degree. I certainly wouldn't do the Comp-Sci degree. I often wonder where I'd be today if I'd started doing what I wanted to do much sooner. If I'd been more focused. I think had I started an Indie game company back then and threw all my effort into it I'd be much much farther along today, but speaking with 20-20 hindsight is always easy. Would the less experienced me be from back then actually be further along? I guess we'll never know... I think probably yes, but that's a guess. If I had to go back and do it again, I'd probably take a degree in Physics purely to learn. The goal would be to learn and grow stronger through the experience, and nothing else.

What would I recommend for others? I don't think I can actually make a proper general recommendation because depending on who you are the answer is different. For some people it may be exactly right to skip univeristy and focus directly on what they want to do. For others that choice would be disasterous. I think though that MikeB is correct when he says that most people are by definition not exceptional so as an average guess school is probably a better choice for "most" people. Taking a year off to decide and doing a little work is probably not a terrible idea so long as you don't let work trap you. Jobs have a way of doing that.

Originally posted by svero
I think though that MikeB is correct when he says that most people are by definition not exceptional so as an average guess school is probably a better choice for "most" people. Taking a year off to decide and doing a little work is probably not a terrible idea so long as you don't let work trap you. Jobs have a way of doing that.

I said it, but I deleted the post, sorry. I just decided that the topic comes down to a personal choice, and to debate it point-by-point was, well, pointless :)

I also think it's a personal choice. For system manager a degree isn't necesarry. However If you want to become head of the IT department, a degree (and experience) will help you a lot. The 3 years IT MBO college I did (I don't know how they call this in the USA, in my country this is a very well appreciated education), is enough to get an IT job I liked. A very positive point is that with the school system for this education you can do work experience, 4 days in a week and 1 day you got to school. Also you got a lot of homework, but you get valueable experience at work. The fact is that knowledge (books) at school was a bit behind the experience and knowledge of new technology at work ;). I worked at several softwarehouses (software tester/ technical support, also database programming), IT departments (role of system manager). Without the diploma of a MBO college or a HBO college or University you won't get today a job at all. That is also a fact, when the economic was healthy/stable, there was a lot of work and even with a high school diploma, people got a job in the IT (programmer, support, systemmanager etc.) or possibilities in other jobs like financial/general administration. They were educated in company. Nowadays a diploma is necessary, if it's MBO or HBO or an university diploma doesn't matter. You need it. After the MBO (you can apply for system manager, application manager, network administrator) you can go to the IT HBO college (which takes 3 /4 years. IT HBO college is mostly necessary if you want to apply for software developer, information analyst/business consultant, project manager, Head of IT department etc.) and you get the international title of Engineer title "Ing". Don't confused that with the technical university engineer title "Ir". After the IT HBO college, you can go to University and complete it in about 2 years. MBO and HBO is for a half important part practical education (the practical things you can do for instance at work) (other half is theory) and you learn "how to do things" when you work for a (several) profession. University learns "why to do" things. You need a job to get an income and in that case the education is important. When you don't got one of the mentioned education, nowadays it will difficult in my country to get a job in general. How higher your education (MBO-> HBO-> Universtiy) is, how bigger the chances are to get a job and a higher salary and promotion after a while. That are facts in my country. If you got your income, you can do what I am preparing for is an own business. A better scenario is, if I was in high school and knew that I wanted to start an own business I took at that time important preparations for it. But on the other hand I am very glad that I did much job experience in several companies, because of that I know what I really want, is to work on my own as indie developer. I don't like to work for a boss my whole life. My true ambition is to develop nice games and entertain people. Also it's true that a HBO or an Academic degree (title) tells nothing about how good you are in your work/ motivation or goals. I experienced this in my experience with co- workers with a title. It's only a "piece" of paper, which tells that you got the skills to finish university or HBO college.

Would I drop out again?
I didn't make it to college; I dropped out of high school.

Every once in a while, I play a game I know I shouldn't. It's the What-If-I-Knew-Then-What-I-Know-Now game, otherwise known as What-If-I-Got-A-Second-Chance.

The way this used to go for me is:
I should have been a better highshool student and got straight-A's.
I shouldn't have had that baby when I was 19 with that woman I ended up divorcing.
I should have gone to a good college.
I should have started a game house with my college buddies and become a millionaire.

Obviously, I made some mistakes. I'm 26 now. A few days ago, I played the game again and realized I was wrong about the things that I thought I should fix. These are not choices that I could really have lived with.

Being a father has changed my life in such a positive way, I can't even imagine living without it now. It would feel so empty.

If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't have dropped out in the middle of the 11th grade - I should have left after the end of 10th grade. Highschool was utterly useless to me. I would have taken a part time job at a technology company to keep gas in my car and my computer up to date. And I would have focused on my real passion-making games.



You have to put this into perspective
I think this discussion/debate has to be taken into context. Arguably, this forum has a skewed set of the population. To be 'average' here means to be somewhere between struggling game developer and wannabe game developer. A few people stand as the exceptional - successful developers.
But our average is pretty far from the human average in all sorts of attributes like intelligence, creativity, direction, and drive.

I'm guessing many of us began programming at a young age and are self-taught life-long learners. I can't tell you how often I hear someone say something like, "Man, I wish I could make games, but there's just no possible way to learn that." These are fellow programmers, making business support application, that went to college served in some branch of the armed forces and have nice resumes. I offer help, theory, source code, whatever it doesn't really matter.

I'm not sure if society makes average people to keep it going, or if we just need to keep them busy to maintain order. Either way, it seems important to keep a status quo of sending the masses to college so they can start their lives off in a huge pile of debt and then give them credit cards.

Indie developers don't need to be part of that process.


My honest opinion
80% of degrees go to suckers. These people fill up space in life. I can't say whether they'd be better off with or without the degree. I don't really understand them. It's nice that they keep the engines of daily life running, though.

People with passion and direction should make a choice. If where you want to go requires a degree, get it with gusto. If not, get to the business of pursuing your goals.

If my daughter decides to be a rock star when she grows up, I won't tell her she needs a degree to fall back on. I'll tell her to pursue it with all she's got. If it doesn't work out and she wants to 'fall back' on being a chemical engineer, she can go get a degree.

How the world works?
I think most people would agree that there is a wide devide between the academic world and the practical world.

If you are going to be an acedemic researcher, you might learn how your world works from your experience at college.


If you want to know how the world works, spend a few years at a small to medium sized business. Get to know the CEO, the sales people, the support people(accounting, IT, facilities), especially the customers, the vendors, and the business partners and I think you'll know a lot more about how the world works.

Working as a consultant I've learned so much about these people's businesses.

Much more than I could have learned in a classroom.

Well, this is kind of weird to me.

I tell you what, the debate about wether college or university is a good or a bad thing is a personal one.

But let me point out, that for most university courses I know of, the time spent actually doing the work is very small. Its not the time on the course that matters, but how you use the opportunity to do things outside.

I think generally, people going to university get split up into the following categories

1) Kids who are having their first taste of being away from home, go ape mental and drink themselves out of college (never doing any work)

2) Kids who simply cant bring themselves to do the work, and subsequently drop out

3) Kids who think they are above it all, that they already know it and drop out to try and pursue thier own agenda.

4) Kids who actually use the time that college gives and extend themselves beyond simply the course, they meet new people, learn to socialise, just get a different perspective on life.

Now obviously there are various routes in between, but I'm pretty certain that having the time at a university or college is on the whole a "good thing", if you can get past crappy courses, just accept that things arent perfect and take what you can out of the experience.

I think what many people here are saying is a very very narrow view of things (Steve particularly scares me). Thinking you can get what you get from going to university by going down to a local social club just seems wrong. You arent simply going to a bar and socialising, there are interactions with people that generally do not happen anywhere else.

I'm not saying that everything is roses and all courses are sweetness and light, but if I didnt think university had something to teach people (more about thier approach to things and seeing opportunity) then I wouldnt have gone myself, and i certainly wouldnt be taking a teaching job up next month.

While i agree that the academic side of things is largely irrelevant, I'd disagree that the experience as a whole doesnt have merit. Americans may have a harder time with your educational system (having to pay for it all), but I'd like to think that any one of my students will have learnt a few things while they study with me...

1) Anyone can be productive in some way, no matter this skills
2) Life is about opportunity, not simply getting them, but being able to spot them when theyre presented to you (a life lesson that Ive spent a long time learning)
3) Learning isnt simply an academic pursuit, but a lifelong one, especially in something technical like game development.

I'm kind of depressed that so many people have had such negative views of something that I've in the main found to be postive AND useful. I simply didnt sit on my arse and let it all go by me, I actually forced myself to get something out of it.

If there's one regret I'd have, it would be that I didnt go do it while I was young (I hated school, thinking it irrelevant, having no personal goals other than to have fun with my mates), I spent years doing different jobs and being unemployed, when I could have equally spent the time at university, having resources to learn, with people who were on the whole, fairly bright.

Lets put it like this.. the vast majority of so-called "indie" developers are what other people would call "unemployed". If youre not actually making money or finishing projects, whats the difference?

Hell, if ever there was a time when you could bring your indie games into existance, it'd be on a damn university course!

Phil.

I was going to post earlier but people have basically said what I want to, and did so much better. Whether you go to college/university or not is an important choice that should not be made based on ego. Getting a degree does not make you a weaker person, nor does it steal precious game development time. The argument has been made on these forums many times that you can successfully work only 4 hours and accomplish what most people accomplish during a whole day. Choose the right degree and four hours of free time is not a problem. As Phil mentioned, university isn't spent just doing work. If you wish to see it that way, then it is a waste of time for you. It appears that most things taught in computer courses will for the people on this board fall into one of three categories:

1) Already know it.
2) Will be outdated before the graduation ceremony is over.
3) Too theoritical to ever use.

Clearly the knowledge in computer related courses won't help much. Focus on those well enough to pass, but put most of your energy to the other resources available to you in what is basically a small academically dedicated town. Socialize and you will meet people with common goals who can later become valuable business contacts or friends. Speak to professors in areas you are interested in and they can help you find a lot more knowledge than is given in a course. Take courses on things that you would not normally pick up a book on. Meet people in other programs; suddenly you have an artist or music composer for the game you are working on during all the time that you have free because you are managing it effectively. You really need to take the initiative to gain anything other than a degree. Most people waste their tuition worrying about calculus grades or how much alcohol they can drink. It's really easy to get lost focusing on just getting that piece of paper, which is when you've lost the whole point.

People come to higher education with a high school attitude and consequently fail to get anything out of it. Don't expect the school to knock on your door and throw information at you. They have your money and could care less if you use what you've paid so much for. You don't have to treat it that way though. Balance your life and use some of the time spent at college or university developing your business so that when you graduate, you are ready for indie full time. Remember also that as a student you have an excuse to be broke and not pulling in 6 figures. Make use of it ;)

I'm a little suprised that this topic has turned out to be so negative.

I didn't go to college after high school. Looking back, it's probably a good thing, as I didn't have the perspective and maturity to approach it the right way. But knowing what I know now, I'm going back to school.

I'm a self-taught programmer. I picked up a C book and a week later I thought I was a C programmer. It took me years to figure out that "coding" is not "programming", and I had to sit down and force myself to learn about design. I had to learn the hard way about project management and source control and a myriad of other things. Would college have taught those? Probably not. But I would have at least been exposed to them. At least I would have known I was missing something.

Reading the "rich dad" books really got me thinking about how much I don't know, about a great many things. So it's back to school.

Not for a CS degree, that would be pointless. Rather, I'm going for a business degree. I've learned a tremendous amount in the first month of a financial accounting class, information that is directly applicable to making my life and business better. I'm talking with people who are also interested in business, gaining insight and making contacts.

College isn't the perfect format -- it's not a hard system to manipulate, and there is a whole lot of fluff that you have to take that is largely useless. I could probably learn a specific topic faster from a book than I would in college, but only for that topic, and only for what I needed at that moment. Unless you are extremely disciplined at learning, being "self-taught" is always going to mean "half-assed".

Look, a 12 credit class load isn't hard. I'm doing that with a full-time job, part time project development, family time and a Neverwinter Nights addiction.

Dexterity
If your goal is to be average/normal or within one standard deviation of it, getting a degree may help you get there (which is basically nowhere). If you want more than that though, I don't think it's too terrible to model the choices of the exceptional performers like Gates and Dell. The first American billionaire (Henry Ford) and the first internet billionaire (Jim Clark) were both high-school drop-outs too.


I'm sorry Steve, I agree with you on SO many things (pretty much everything except food), but this is disturbing.

Gates, Dell and Ford were not successful because they dropped out of school. They were successful in spite of it. If dropping out of school was the only criteria for success, the US would be overrun with billionaires. Those men succeeded because they were driven to succeed. Most people drop out of school because they are lazy, mediocre people who are never going to master their own lives, let alone change the world.

Originally posted by Siebharinn
Most people drop out of school because they are lazy, mediocre people who are never going to master their own lives, let alone change the world.

That's a good point. A university degree (or other education like I mentioned in my reply; MBO, HBO degree) tells that you finished something. I remember people from high school and MBO IT who dropped, because they were lazy. I am b.t.w. at the moment busy to complete the HBO degree. I think it's a challenge to educate on a smart and effective way. If you don't have the master about your "body and brains" to complete things, because there are subjects you don't like, it would difficult to run a business. In every business there are things who aren't interesting to handle. For instance some people don't like customer support, other don't like to handle financial subjects (you can always hire an accountant, but that costs money and you still need to think and work things out about this subject) Public Relations, sales subjects, etc. You need to have basic business knowledge in general. It's proven in my country that people who don't have the basic business knowledge in general, are taking a bigger risk to fail, when they want to start a company. Then people who already got the basic business knowledge. Of course you can follow a short course to solve this knowledge problem. But in the course there will be handled enough subjects, which aren't interesting for a lazy person. Also in developing a game or application there are subjects who aren't interesting (perhaps very boring), but you need to complete it to get the end result. The final end results are a number of happy customers, enough so you can live from the profits.

Actually, there are lazy people and people who might appear lazy from your perspective. I have never liked studying in school and at university I finally couldn't take it anymore so I dropped out. Others might think I was lazy but I do not consider myself lazy.
There are a lot of things I don't like. I don't like talking to people (with some exceptions) but I do because it serves a purpose. I have no trouble learning subjects even if they are boring if I can find a purpose for doing it. Getting a degree is not something I am prepared to spend that amount of time doing since I don't think it will be worth it for me.

If I will regret my decision remains to be seen ;)

Weird. I'm finding it hard to reconcile my memories of college with many of the accounts in this thread. The four years I spent getting a BSEE at Purdue contained three and a half years of the hardest work I've ever done (first semester was pretty easy). I remember going to a few parties, and playing some jazz in local bars, but for the most part, I remember a lot of very late nights working my butt off on homework.

The stuff I learned in college was amazingly relevant to my job, especially considering that my degree is in digital hardware design and I've never worked in any field except software development.

I suppose I'd be willing to hire someone without a degree (no one without a degree has ever been in an interview with me, save interns who were currently enrolled). But that hypothetical candidate would have to be able to point to an impressive body of work and experience in a top-notch development organization.

On the other hand, when I interview people they are applying for a development job at a straight IT services company, not a games company. Horses for courses, or something.

"Look, a 12 credit class load isn't hard. I'm doing that with a full-time job, part time project development, family time and a Neverwinter Nights addiction."

How much is 12 credits? Because over here at UofT 12 credits would equal to 24 courses, I hope it's different to what college you attended to because that's just plain crazy!

How much is 12 credits? Because over here at UofT 12 credits would equal to 24 courses, I hope it's different to what college you attended to because that's just plain crazy!


12 credit-hours. Most classes are 3 or 4 credit-hours. This semester I'm taking 4 classes, which is a total of 12 hours of class time.