I'm posting this in general chat since I'm not the creator of this game and not asking for feedback :)

I wanted to mention this game here however because it made such a big impression on me last night when I discovered it. There's a new game called Rocket Mania from popcap games - which is a variation on a pipes style game.

It's been a long time since I've actually laughed out loud when the first rocket shot off... they got the sound and visceral "feel" of shooting off fireworks down . This seems to have all the qualities of a good game - it's simple to figure out, you get a nice reward when you succeed, its challenging, etc.

To me, if someone is looking to make a new game that appeals to a broad audience, find some kind of activity that you had alot of fun with as a child and "recreate it" like this fireworks game. For instance : create a game where you put firecrackers in little hotwheels cars and crash them into blocks or something for points... anyway, I'm very curious about folks impressions of this Rocket Mania game.

Its a nice design (I saw it before it was released on PopCap) and well done..

But, like all PopCap games, they get very redundant very quickly. Perhaps this is the "PopCap Formula" but I think there needs to be a little more to it.

In any case, overall good game.

Alex

One thing that popcap has been doing recently which I think is very nice is this element of incorporating a mascot in the games. In this game it's the dragon. I think that works well.

Loved it! I've always been addicted with pipe games.

29.90$ is kind of a lot for a pipe game though. I would probably have bought it at 9.95.

pat.

Fun game, but after finishing the first 5 levels I had no interest in it at all...

Cute game... very well done.

Apart from the characters, PopCap games have been very good recently at giving people lots of possible reasons to keep playing the game... you want to play to

- see what happens after you max out rockets
- see what the next rank is
- beat your score
- try to get as many launched at once as possible at once
- build the longest chain
- try to figure out how to get combos by more than just luck
etc.

Lots of incentives for that "just one more game" feeling.

BTW...

Does anybody else think the dragon's speech could be, well, taken as slightly offensive? All I can think of are those stupid aliens in The Phantom Menace (which, when they first appeared on screen after five minutes made my heart sink as I realized where this movie was heading).

I think the dragon says little enough that you'd have to be *trying* to be offended to be upset by it... it's not like he has lengthy broken speeches (that I noticed).

my other half somehow got told that he'd reached the end of the free version but I appeared to play many many levels past that point before finally running out of time ('Disciple of the Lotus')... weird freak of luck? Anyway, it's definitely more fun than most popcap games, like you said, many different elements to work on. too many of these web-java games appear to have one trick and once your brain syncs into that mode it's no fun anymore.

I know folks have mentioned that Popcap is using a kind of "formula" for creating these games, it'd be very interesting to pick apart that formula and see what makes these games so appealing.

If anything it'd be interesting to have a criteria of sorts that we could hold up other games to and see how they measure up - of course this only in a very broad sense, because different kinds of games appeal to different folks...

The thing I liked about Rocker Mania, is that you are the "master of your destiny": i.e. it's your fault if your win/lose or achive the score you do, the game doesn't screw you with some random nonsense.

This random-ness is a big gripe of mine with PopCap's Diamond Mine: due to no fault of my own, a random sequence of blocks can fall down that make furthur moves impossible and all my hard work up until that point has gone for naught ... blah!

David

Forgive my memory, but doesn't Diamond Mine automatically notice when there are no further moves available and scramble the board so you can keep playing?

The one that drives me nuts is Big Money, and I can't see how anyone can be good at this... Maybe I miss something, but it seems way too hard. Which is why I keep playing - many of the other games are too easy. :)

Finally got a chance to check out Rocket Mania... only to discover that someone beat me to cloning this game. :) This game was on my list of possibly projects. It's a remake of an old arcade game. The production values on Rocket Mania are really excellent though, that's for sure.

@papillon:

doesn't Diamond Mine automatically notice when there are no further moves available and scramble the board so you can keep playing?Maybe the reg'd version might do this, but in the online versions of Bejewled/Diamond Mine, when no moves are available, all the pieces shake, words like "No Moves" pop up, all pieces explode and fall off the screen and game is over .. :(

Weird... back when I used to play it it would say no moves, pieces would blast off, new pieces would fall down, and you could keep going. This was all on the online version, but maybe only at a particular difficulty level? Or maybe they changed it? Or maybe my memory's just faulty, I decided that game was boring and haven't played in a long time. :)

Originally posted by papillon
I decided that game was boring and haven't played in a long time. :)

Speaking of Diamond Mine ... it's the one game for which I really can't figure out why it's so popular. Any ideas? I liked Dynomite and Rocket Mania, but Diamond Mine seems to be primarily a time waster. There's no real skill involved, you basically click until you're given a no moves situation.

Doesn't exactly sound like fun... so am I missing something???

Midnight, have you tried Collapse? hehe... it's even worse. Basically just click as fast as you can... it's absolutely freakin' brainless. And utterly popular.

Originally posted by papillon
I think the dragon says little enough that you'd have to be *trying* to be offended to be upset by it... it's not like he has lengthy broken speeches (that I noticed).


Hmmm, so if a game just has a few quick phrases like "nigger!" or "Ah So Chopsuey!" you have to "try" to be offended?

I don't see where the "length" has any bearing on whether or not something is offensive.

Eric (who found the dragon's "dialect" insulting)

This thread is turning funny...

Hey Eric, what if the "dialect" was actually real? Like they got a guy with an accent to do the voice acting? Would that be offensive? <laugh>

... if you actually meant that seriously, you're mixing apples and oranges. A slight accent to a few words (at least in the online version - he does talk more in the download, but I hadn't played it at that time) is something that most people would not even notice. And I don't mean that in the sense of "notice that the accent implies stereotypes of thus and such", I mean notice that there IS an accent AT ALL. In fact, I don't really hear one - the only words being spoken are "Get Ready" and "Well Done" and they don't sound accented to me. "Level Up" might have the tiniest bit of unusual inflection, but you can't really make out an accent in two words!

Whereas most people would sort of notice the word nigger. :)

... now, I was mildly annoyed that the character in the download of Big Money called me 'son' at some point in time, but this may be tempered by my annoyance at being crap at the game, too. :) And I assume it's just them trying to build up his dumb capitalist character, and not seriously thinking that only men are playing their games. If I threw a fit and wrote to them telling them how demeaning it was to be referred to in a masculine sense by a computer game in one recorded sound effect, I think that would rank as "trying" to be offended. IMO.

Originally posted by papillon
Forgive my memory, but doesn't Diamond Mine automatically notice when there are no further moves available and scramble the board so you can keep playing? Actually, what happens there is that you reach a bonus level (look at the little health bar at the bottom) after a certain amount of play, and it blows out a few choice pieces. Politely, it leaves you at least one solvable set of gems.

On Rocket Mania, I found I like the strategy mode best. I don't like time pressure at all...

Originally posted by Pyabo
This thread is turning funny...

Hey Eric, what if the "dialect" was actually real? Like they got a guy with an accent to do the voice acting? Would that be offensive? <laugh>

Gee, like how they used real rednecks to do the voice acting in Redneck Rampage or real asians to do the voice overs in Shadow Warrior? Your ignorance is hysterical. <LAUGH>

You folks might poo-poo the whole conversation as over-inflated touchiness, but the bottom line is most of the world is NOT white, and when you put in something that non-whites find offensive, they don't buy your game, and YOU lose SALES.

So if you want to lose MONEY so you can put in stupid stereotypes in your games, by all means - GO AHEAD. I'll gladly take your customers.

Strangely, this never stops people from putting annoying stereotypes of women in their games, either. :)

And one wonders how many lost sales to women that is responsible for. Not to mention the overall image of our industry, lack of respect for our profession and overall dismissal of the industry as a backwards form of entertainment suitable for only testosterone laden teenage boys... :rolleyes:

Chaster, I asked a perfectly reasonable question... a thought experiment if you will... and you avoided answering it and chose to personally insult me instead.

Originally posted by Pyabo
Chaster, I asked a perfectly reasonable question... a thought experiment if you will... and you avoided answering it and chose to personally insult me instead.

Pyabo, I apologize for the insult, but your "question" was written in a manner which I took to be mocking, and I just responded in kind:

This thread is turning funny...

Hey Eric, what if the "dialect" was actually real? Like they got a guy with an accent to do the voice acting? Would that be offensive? <laugh>

If you REALLY meant the question as a *serious* question, why the mocking comment about "this thread is turning funny" and ending your "question" with "<laugh>"? Some of us don't find it the topic amusing - have you stopped to consider that? Or are you the type of person that believes only things which YOU find serious are deserving of respect?

Look, I apologize for hijacking this thread, but your attitude is annoying to those who have to deal with racial stereotypes every day of their lives. You mock another person, and when they respond in kind, you feign innocence and pretend to be the victim. How about taking some responsibility for your statement?

BTW, to answer your "question" - YES. Why? Because it perpetuates the stereotype that people of asian descent can't speak English without an accent. And if you don't think that's true, well, all I can say is - perhaps you should go to asia and see what your reaction is to their stereotypes of YOU.

I'm not going to comment on this anymore. I apologize for hijacking the thread, but geez, some people just don't get it. <shakes head>

So the only way to appeal to non-white gamers is to not have an accent at all, which is really to speak as "white" as possible? That doesn't make sense. Korean gamers would find an accent offensive, but would rush out to buy a perfectly non-accented english version? Would it be offensive to make a Korean language version for Koreans? Wouldn't that be implying that Koreans can't understand English well enough that they have to have their own language?

"Cultural sensativity", like so many other causes, started out with good intentions, only to become a sad joke.

I don't get how this is a white/non-white issue. There're plenty of "white" accents in the world. For instance, I'm originally from the former Soviet Union (though I came to the US at a young enough age that I don't have a Russian accent) and as you probably know there're a TON of games involving Russians especially with the cold war theme (Command and Conquer is a very popular series for instance). They use the stereotypical Russian accent in these games. Am I offended by this? No. But I do find it pretty silly that a whole ethnic group of people could be summed up with one stereotypical accent. Sometimes I get a kick from them though because they're so overacted and sound so stereotypical. :) On the other hand, people who have a heavy accent themselves might get offended because they might take it personally. Can anyone from this board confirm this?

Well, at the risk of thread closure, I have this to say:

I don't recall any outraged Englishmen when Gwyneth Paltrow got nominated for Best Actress with that fake British accent in Shakespear in Love...

How 'bout Cheech Marin... is it offensive for him to use that heavy Mexican accent he sports in his old movies, even though he speaks perfect "American" English?

There is a big difference between having an ACCENT, and MOCKERY. Big, big difference! Back to the original topic (sort of)... I didn't play Rocket Mania for very long, but I don't recall the dragon making any racial slurs, making any jokes about dry cleaning, etc. I think (note, this is my OPINION being stated here) that anyone who takes offense to it needs to lighten up just a wee bit. No one is being made fun of, which was the point of my original "thought experiment".

Chaster, I apologize for sounding condescending in my original post. Your answer to my original question is certainly perplexing though... what you are essentially saying is that it's offensive to hire actors with accents!?! How does Jackie Chan get any work these days...

Sigh.

I said I wasn't going to comment on this further, but I guess I can't but try to at least get my point across one more time... (again, apologies for the thread jacking - but it seems no one else is attempting to seriously stay on topic..)

Siebharinn said:
So the only way to appeal to non-white gamers is to not have an accent at all, which is really to speak as "white" as possible? That doesn't make sense. Korean gamers would find an accent offensive, but would rush out to buy a perfectly non-accented english version? Would it be offensive to make a Korean language version for Koreans? Wouldn't that be implying that Koreans can't understand English well enough that they have to have their own language?

Siebharrinn, your post illustrates my point in so many different ways I don't even know where to start. The fact that you wrote what you did as an "argument" against my point only illustrates how deeply ingrained some stereotypes and cultural biases are. Why is speaking English without an accent, "more white"? Would it surprise you to know that many people of color besides white can and do speak English without an accent? And as far as the rest of your post, it's obviously either (A) sadly misguided, or (B) overstated to serve as hyperbole. Either way, I fail to see your logic.

Fenix Down - while I find no fault with your post, I do feel the need to point out a difference between a person of Asian descent and a person of Eastern European descent. In America, I doubt anyone can tell you are anything other than "white", hence you get treated as "white" whereas most Asians are noticed for their physical appearance and experience a different "environment". So while you may not think anything about stereotyping of your ethnicity, you might feel differently if strangers recognized you instantly as Russian and made comments like "hey, your English is really good!" (which is an unfortunately common occurence for many Americans of Asian descent).

Pyabo - apology accepted. I will attempt to answer your questions civilly from now on:

1) Gwyneth Paltrow's character in that movie was one who lived in England. Obviously, the accent was called for. I'm sure you're thinking "well, what the hell difference is Rocket Mania then?" The difference is while Shakespeare in Love *called* for an accent (because of the fact that it was a period peace), Rocket Mania doesn't. You could argue that Rocket Mania is set in China during some previous century (or even present day) but that would merely call for Mandarin or Cantonese - not "Chinglish".

2) Whoah - you don't know Cheech Marin pisses off the latino community big time? Go ask some latino americans if they own any of his movies and see what kind of response you get. Have you noticed that he stopped doing the accent about 15 years ago? Ever wonder why? Perhaps you should ask him...

3) I think you misunderstood my answer to the original question. I am not saying that hiring actors with accents is offensive. I am saying that portrayals that needlessly backup racial stereotypes are. Additionally, with *respect*, I get the impression your original question was searching more for an exception to the rule than addressing it - similar to Siebharrin's post, which went to (imho ridiculous) extremes to present *something* to counter what I posted.

Okay, FOR REAL THIS TIME. I'm not going to reply to any more posts. It's obvious that people have their own opinions, and you are of course, entitled to them. It's not really my place to tell you what to believe, and I don't think I'm "improving" things around here (and I really do think this community of indie developers is wonderful). You folks disagree with me, and I disagree with you. You're obviously not going to change my mind, and I'm not going to change yours. Therefore, in the interest of returning the board to something more pertinent (like indie games) I am going to drop the subject.

Peace,

Eric

I know I should let it die, but I just want to clarify my position... :)

There are certain things I'm touchy about. Thankfully, the one that's *most* likely to set me off doesn't crop up in games very often. (And I'm actually scared to mention what that is, as it's still considered an "acceptable" prejudice in polite society. Which kinda stinks.) So I'll stick with gender, as that's easier to talk about.

Many games feature scantily-clad babes. It's pretty ubiquitous. When I see yet another jiggly torso, I don't immediately start complaining. I consider the intent and appropriateness. Is it a porn game? Is it a game that's heavy on eye candy and low on plot? Is it a comedy? In cases like those, it's probably quite fitting to have enormous breasts. (Admittedly, as someone who makes money off porn, I may have different standards than the 'typical' woman, but I still have standards.)

What *will* get me to complain? The game actually containing "women are only good for sex" messages. The game featuring a scantily-clad babe on the box when there are no such women in the game. The game claiming to have a serious plot and talking about what a highly-skilled operative this female character is - and then dressing her in a jiggly bikini to go do her assassination mission. (Well, unless the mission was on the BEACH or something.)

Oh, and one I'm still angry about 10+ years after the fact- I had a NES game once. It came with a fake high-score-list - fake because the cartridge had no backup, so you couldn't actually keep a high score between plays, so the list was always filled in with their fake data unless you actually kept the machine on and played the game all day long or something. The high score list has a bunch of ordinary-looking names and scores next to them at regular 5000 point intervals. Every single name on that default list was male - Dan, David, Michael... EXCEPT the very bottom one. Caroline. 0 points. That pisses me off a lot more than any bouncing breasts.

So it's actual negative intent or complete inappropriateness that will annoy me enough to rant about it.

Siebharrinn, your post illustrates my point in so many different ways I don't even know where to start. The fact that you wrote what you did as an "argument" against my point only illustrates how deeply ingrained some stereotypes and cultural biases are. Why is speaking English without an accent, "more white"? Would it surprise you to know that many people of color besides white can and do speak English without an accent? And as far as the rest of your post, it's obviously either (A) sadly misguided, or (B) overstated to serve as hyperbole. Either way, I fail to see your logic.


Option B, thank you. An attempt to illustrate absurdity with absurdity. I was simply commenting on the weirdness of someone with a genuine accent being somehow stereotypical. You seemed to implying that any accent at all would be stereotyping.

You also need to understand that "accent" is a relative term. People in England speak heavily accented English. At least it seems accented to me. English people make fun of the "American" accent, which is funny to me, because I don't think of myself as having one at all. Did you know that English is one of the two official languages of India? I worked with a lot of Indians at my last Big Corporate Job, and while their english was impeccible, it was also (to me) heavily accented.

My point of unaccented English being "more white" was in direct response to you. You said "and when you put in something that non-whites find offensive, they don't buy your game", referring to accents. Ok, so accents are a non-white thing and no accent is a white thing, right?

Personally, I'm offended that because I don't agree with you, I have a deeply ingrained stereotype and cultural bias. (And I don't even really disagree with your basic point, just your way of trying to bring that across).

Sorry for continuing on this thread, and this is my last post to it. I was going to just email this to you, but you have that option turned off.

OK, let's snuff this thread. We've all said our peace...

The lesson here really is this: Why alienate ANY customers at all if you can help it? Even if I don't find it offensive, PopCap made a mistake by putting off someone represented here... which means he/she is probably not alone in their opinion.

Don't make the same mistake in YOUR games!

Originally posted by Pyabo
OK, let's snuff this thread. We've all said our peace...


I agree! *click* :)