I think the Rocket Mania thread shows that it is very difficult as a caucasian to really appreciate the strain of everyday 'racial sterotyping'. 99% of us don't feel it, so it effectively doesn't exist for us.

If the Dragon *is* offensive to people of asian descent (and Chaster is in a position to inform us here) then I would say that's a problem for PopCap. I would imagine that anyone offended by Rocket Mania is not going to be rushing out to buy it or any PopCap games in the future.

I (perhaps as the creators of Rocket Mania intended?) assume a chinese person (as in from China) is speaking when the dragon talks. I wouldn't even have thought about it being a non-chinese asian.

According to Chaster, even an actual chinese person (who has a natural accent when speaking english) doing the voice acting would remain offensive as people would assume it was an N-th generation non-chinese asian, thereby perpetuating racial stereotypes.

Thus, if this is a generic problem, there would seem no 'easy' solution.

Given that none of us want to lose sales, is there a lesson to be learned and if so, what is it?

SC

Since Rocket Mania is selling quite well, I doubt Popcap will take any lesson from any complaints generated... That being said, I've bought two Popcap games in the past, and will probably buy more in the future, but I won't be buying Rocket Mania. <shrug>

Being Culturally Sensitive (or for the more ascerbic, "Politically Correct") is something that most people shrug off or actually get defensive about. But my point is purely practical - why alienate potential customers when you don't have to?

A few interesting tidbits that Indies (particularly those who distribute online) should be aware of:

1) Korea is the most wired nation on the planet. Over 60% of korean households have high speed internet access - not just internet access, *broadband* access.. The number of households who are connected to the internet is over 90% by some estimates. Also, the PC is KING in Korea, not consoles.

2) China is on pace to become the nation with the largest online population within 5 years. That means more people online in China than in the U.S. in 5 years or less.

So the answer becomes one of simple logic. Do you want to sell to those millions of potential customers effectively, or not?

Chaster

Neither of those nations are paticularly know for their abilty to uphold intellectual property or copyright laws. Even hit games like Halflife are hard pressed to sell a single copy ;)

Originally posted by Dan MacDonald
Neither of those nations are paticularly know for their abilty to uphold intellectual property or copyright laws. Even hit games like Halflife are hard pressed to sell a single copy ;)

Hmm. That's odd, at GDC 2001, there was a very interesting presentation given about Korea in particular which directly refutes your assertion... Hold on, while I dig up my proceedings...

Ah, here it is:

"How to Market in Korea: Small Country, Large Market for PC Games" given by Byung-ho Park, GDC 2001.

"almost 2 million copies of Blizzard's Starcraft have been sold in [the korean] market [as of Jan. 1, 2001] which outnumbers its sales record in the U.S."

"Electronic Arts established its branch in Korea as early as Oct. 1998. Microsoft used their pre-existing branch for game marketing, Infogram and Interplay have their own korean branch this year..."

"Korea Internet Multimedia Culture Association (KIMCA), an organization representing this business [games], claims that their members are responsible for purchasing 6 million dollars worth of game software *every month* [emphasis added]."

"NC soft [a korean videogame company] sales record was $4.8 million in 1999, but thanks to new game service, it skyrocketed to $44.2 million."

There's lots of good info in there besides these little nuggets. Take a look, it might surprise you. Granted, it's specific to Korea, but I think you get the point.

But hey, if developers want to continue to ignore emerging (on the other hand this report is from 2+ years ago - "established" is probably a more accurate term than "emerging") then that's fine with me. Less competition. <shrug> :)

Actually, Korea doesn't have the problems you are mentioned Dan, tho most gamers are hardcore gamers there, but I guess you will still find a chunk going for the casual type, China on the other hand is just something you can forget about, even if you get some sales there, it probably won't pay for the ammount of bandwidth you waste on ppl downloading demos there, no offense to any chinese here, but it is just the way it is.

Similarly, what I've heard about Korea is that there's the huge cybercafe culture and everyone's playing Lineage or FPS'es - heavy multiplayer stuff. (Supposedly Korea doesn't like to import Japanese stuff and therefore is very lacking in game consoles, focusing all gaming energy on the PC. Or So I Heard. Wonder if they take the XBox, though...)

If anyone *does* have a success story for selling a small game to that market, though, please share!

Papillon, I was under the impression that MMORPG's (Lineage) and RTS's (Starcraft, etc.) ruled in Korea. Has the FPS genre begun to catch on there as well?

Originally posted by Akura
China on the other hand is just something you can forget about, even if you get some sales there, it probably won't pay for the ammount of bandwidth you waste on ppl downloading demos there, no offense to any chinese here, but it is just the way it is.

Hold on Akura, you're forgetting a potential market. (BTW, no offense taken). I agree with your assertion that the Chinese PC game market is truly a lost cause. However, the Chinese Mobile Phone Game market is something else entirely. The Chinese mobile phone user base ALREADY outnumbers the U.S. (according to Wired magazine) and even better, they have access to superior phone technology there - like 3G speeds. Because of the nature of cell phone technology and "use", it's generally considered much easier for game developers to tackle this market in China - which is a potentially huge one if you have the right game.

If you haven't taken a look at the mobile phone game market - you should. In many ways, it's attractive to indie developers. But if you DO want to tackle it, you'll want to consider some of the points I've made regarding racial stereotyping - because the majority of the market is in Asia.

Chaster

My experience has been that the more "Americanized" a person is, the more likely they are to be offended. For some reason, people that are actually from a different country don't seem to get as offended as someone who has been here for a few generations. Which is quite interesting.

It seems to me that there is a certain part of the modern American culture that celebrates being a victim.

Fundamentally, I agree with Chaster's point: don't make a game that is offensive and cut yourself out of a market. But I also think that there is a cultural hyper-sensativity that is uniquely American, and it won't affect foreign markets, because they aren't even going to notice it.

Originally posted by Siebharinn
Fundamentally, I agree with Chaster's point: don't make a game that is offensive and cut yourself out of a market. But I also think that there is a cultural hyper-sensativity that is uniquely American, and it won't affect foreign markets, because they aren't even going to notice it.

I agree with the point that foreign markets will not have the same cultural sensitivities as the American market.

However, I think it's safe to say that these same markets will have their own set of cultural sensitivities which a savvy developer needs to pay attention to if they are going to market ANYTHING in those markets. Ask *any* marketing major. It's marketing 101 - understand your market.

However, I think it's safe to say that these same markets will have their own set of cultural sensitivities which a savvy developer needs to pay attention to if they are going to market ANYTHING in those markets. Ask *any* marketing major. It's marketing 101 - understand your market.


No argument there. It would be tough for your typical American to understand some of those nuances. Perhaps there is market for "cultural porting"; a native company taking an American game and making sure that there is nothing that is locally offensive.

When you mentioned StarCraft being popular in Korean, is that with english audio, or is it redubbed?

(or for the more ascerbic, "Politically Correct")

Acerbic? Moi? No. I just living in Britain, where 'Political Correctness' rules and 'Cultural Sensitivity' has yet to catch on.

I think there's an irony somewhere that my politically correct terminology was perhaps not culturally sensitive?

But I digress...

Perhaps there is market for "cultural porting"; a native company taking an American game and making sure that there is nothing that is locally offensive.

I love the idea in theory, but assuming that we all, as indie developers...

1) Don't have stacks of cash to localise (non-language) and market different versions

2) Want to sell to the largest market possible, and therefore exclude as few markets as possible

...what practicable solutions are there?

I would hate to think that simply avoiding any humanisation in product is the answer. Surely there must be a better solution?

SC

Originally posted by Siebharinn
My experience has been that the more "Americanized" a person is, the more likely they are to be offended. For some reason, people that are actually from a different country don't seem to get as offended as someone who has been here for a few generations. Which is quite interesting.
In part, I believe this is because US laws, that effectively allows people to be sued over stupid things. In many other places, if someone says something that is vaguely offensive, you just do as Akura said (You're offended? booohoo snif snif, sorry)

On the other hand, as a latin american myself, we are discriminated and maybe we are somewhat used to it. For example, I find amusing that US citizens call themselves "americans". I am as american as any US citizen, or any canadian citizen for that matter.

We don't have many racial problems here, mostly because in this country 95% of the population is son or grandson of italian or spanish people, so we could pass for european people (http://www.mrio-software.com/gabriel.jpg). But there is discrimination anyway. Are we a third world country? Yes, no doubt. Are we inferior because of that? In many ways, yes. But are each one of us, as individuals, worth less as persons? No, not at all.

Out of all the posts I have seen (including the ones in the Rocket Mania thread) yours seems to be the most "angry". <shrug> Honestly, I wasn't offended by your original post. And even though you resorted to name calling in this post, I'm still not angry. Perhaps you're right though - maybe we can't talk about this without someone getting angry...

I'm not angry at 'racist' games/movies, tho I admit racism is a problem, I'm angry at ppl being over sensitive and have the victim complex about just about everything. Makes me think why the hell did we survive and evolved so much to in the end know nothing more than whinning.


ps: i only named called the people that were involved in the SW:CW protest a year ago. the 'You' in the post didn't mean you specifically but the 'You' people that just like to be victims. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Siebharinn: shush you foo', don't make me open a can of whoop ass on you :p

On the other hand, as a latin american myself, we are discriminated and maybe we are somewhat used to it. For example, I find amusing that US citizens call themselves "americans". I am as american as any US citizen, or any canadian citizen for that matter.


You're right about the U.S. monopolizing "American". Do you consider that discrimination? It doesn't make things easy to have continents and countries with the same name, but America *is* the name of my country. The fact that many people refer to it as the "U.S." just complicates things. People don't refer to "the People's Republic of China" as the P.R., but as China.

In that sense, you may be "south american", or "latin american" in the same way that I could call myself "north american". Those are the continents we hail from. But if you call yourself "american", that implies you come from the country called "America", which wouldn't be correct.

Is that a common thought, that being from South America means that one is "American"? I wonder - do people in general refer to themselves by continent more or less than by country? It is almost unheard of here for someone to call themselves a "north american". Would someone from Germany consider themselves a German or European first? African or Ethiopian? Chaster mentioned Asians a few times, and countries a few times. Interesting.

Originally posted by Akura
I'm not angry at 'racist' games/movies, tho I admit racism is a problem, I'm angry at ppl being over sensitive and have the victim complex about just about everything. Makes me think why the hell did we survive and evolved so much to in the end know nothing more than whinning.


I understand your feelings. I know that many caucasians feel put upon by the whole minority/racism thing. Most caucasians aren't racist, but they feel like they get lumped in with them anyway. So anytime someone complains about something they find offensive, it's like "oh no, here we go again..."

It's kind of weird though, this whole thread kind of evolved because I said that I found the Dragon's "accent" to be insulting. I still do. But I felt I was only voicing my opinion, not trying to garner sympathy for the anti-racism cause.

It only got to be a major thread when people were surprised that I was insulted and basically implied that I shouldn't be. I'm sorry if people disagree with my opinion/feelings, but am I not entitled to them?

Do I expect YOU to do anything about my being insulted? NO. Opinions were requested, and I gave mine. I don't expect people to do anything or even agree with me. But I do expect at least a modicum of respect for my opinion, even if it differs from your own.

Whatever a persons feelings on the whole "Is it offensive or not" subject are, that person is entitled to those feelings. I understand that many people are not offended by the Dragon's speech. But I am. <shrug> If that's "whining" please let me know how I can post my opinion without whining.

first, I never intended to insult you, i never even read the damn rocket mania thread, but if I looked like I insulted you, I'm sorry, that wasn't my intention.

And yes, I consider whining when some ppl 'whine' about stuff that really makes no dfference to this world. Denying a black (whatever the political term for black is, I sincerely don't know it) person of a job cause they are black, its bad, beating up an asian because he is chinese so he should know kung fu is bad, faking an asian accent to make the game more in the 'mood' isn't. Unless you also want to whine about all the games/movies with the so phony and funny soviet and german accents american actors like to do so much. it is not racism, its is nothing.

I sincerily don't give a crap about what people say about me, about my 'people' (I'm I think what you can call caucasian, tho my father is from a latin 'south' american (this sounds weird Siebharinn)). I don't care if anyone wants to pretend to have a portuguese acent when they talk. More power to them for making me laugh.

You are entitled to your oppinions, as I am to mine :)

Sieb: about the USA naming, it is not fair to be called United States of America when the only America they count is North America.Why not be called United States of North America ? Wouldn't that be fairer ? :)

Just a thing to add to my whole 'stirring' : http://wigdvdt.glcollective.net/cgi-bin/twiki/view/VDT/WebHome

"The WIGD VDT is different because the aim is to encourage and enable women to join the video game development industry" Why does this piss me off?? Well perhaps because this
A) makes it look like game developers have problems in working with women (false)
or B) makes it look like women can't get a job at a game dev company without some help (false)

But still, these kinds of 'groups' exist for everything, and then people don't want me to be offended? These things insinuate that I as a developer am a machist, sorry, but that's far from the truth as Earth is from the end of the Universe (which I think its a pretty long distance)

Originally posted by Siebharinn
but America *is* the name of my country.
[...]
In that sense, you may be "south american", or "latin american" in the same way that I could call myself "north american". Those are the continents we hail from. But if you call yourself "american", that implies you come from the country called "America", which wouldn't be correct.
From the CIA World Factbook (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html) :
conventional long form: United States of America
conventional short form: United States
abbreviation: US or USA
See what I mean? The United States is NOT America. The United States is a country that happens to be in America.
Would someone from Germany consider themselves a German or European first? African or Ethiopian?
I agree, I'm Uruguayan first, and american second. You're a citizen of the United States (conventional short form) first, and american second.

Anyway, I don't really care about this. Just bear in mind that attitudes like United States == America is what is making more and more people in the world feel antipathy for the US. Not me, though. As I said, I just find this amusing.
Akura just seems angry about everything. :)
I'm afraid of meeting the guy personally :) With that name and his replies, I imagine him as a samurai ready to slice me for the slightiest disagreement :)

Originally posted by Akura


"The WIGD VDT is different because the aim is to encourage and enable women to join the video game development industry" Why does this piss me off?? Well perhaps because this
A) makes it look like game developers have problems in working with women (false)
or B) makes it look like women can't get a job at a game dev company without some help (false)

But still, these kinds of 'groups' exist for everything, and then people don't want me to be offended? These things insinuate that I as a developer am a machist, sorry, but that's far from the truth as Earth is from the end of the Universe (which I think its a pretty long distance)

Wow, either you did a little net checking on me, or you have a knack for picking topics which I am associated with... weird..

I'm involved with the VDT, and I'm a guy, and a developer. I didn't think that the VDT implied any of the things you say it does, but I realize that people can come away with their own insinuations. That said, the intention of the VDT is NOT to insinuate the things you list, and instead it is just there to address the *fact* that there aren't very many women in the industry, and the *belief* that the industry as a whole would benefit greatly from having more women in it. You are correct that women don't necessarily *need* help getting into the industry - we're trying to get women to WANT to be in the industry and to accelerate the process so that the industry as a whole can take advantage of what women can offer sooner. (and no, I don't mean that in a dirty double entendre' way! Get your mind out of the gutter! ;) )

first, I never intended to insult you, i never even read the damn rocket mania thread, but if I looked like I insulted you, I'm sorry, that wasn't my intention.

I didn't think you were insulting me in any of your posts. Just thought you were being quite "vehement" in your choice of words. Which is understandable when one is upset. Hope you didn't think I was insulting you either.

Chaster

No idea what Akura means, I actually don't really go by that nick anymore, but I found more trouble changing than just ignoring ;p

And I'm a nice guy... most of the times... except when I didnt' have any coffee..... or food.... or food...... or food.....

And no, I wouldn't use Magdaria in the likes of you ;p

*edit*
Naaa didn't do any checks, after replying i checked GameDev and it was on the news section there :)

Sieb: about the USA naming, it is not fair to be called United States of America when the only America they count is North America.Why not be called United States of North America ? Wouldn't that be fairer ?


I don't know about the fairness. If it was the United States of North America, then people would call the country "North America", and the Canadians and Mexicans would be even more hacked about it.

At least it's not as bad as Australia, where they had the temerity to name their country the exact same thing as the continent. Talk about confusion!! :)


(I'm I think what you can call caucasian, tho my father is from a latin 'south' american (this sounds weird Siebharinn))


I've always thought of Latin America and South America as being the same thing.

Just so people don't think I'm insensative to my southern brothers, I should point out that my wife is Bolivian. Her mother grew up there, and her grandmother lives here but doesn't speak any english. I learned spanish just to be able to communicate with her family.

I get a chuckle everytime I think about Akura saying "foo'" with his scottish-portuguese accent. :)

Hey Chaster, I'm not Asian, but you know what I would find more offensive than accents? The fortune-cookie "wisdom" passed off as "chinese proverbs".

Man I wake up in the morning... and what do I find? Some thread went haywire while I was asleep. :) I had to bust out the mod stick and do a little pruning.

Subjects like these are held very closely to our own beliefs and world view, thus it is easy to offend. I believe it is best if we discuss the subject based on its own merits and leave personal references or feelings about/toward other posters (or there perspective) out of the discussion.

Thanks

Don't worry, we're cool here... Just a very excitable topic you know.. ;)

I'm kinda talked out on this anyway... Such a draining thing to talk about! (at least, for me it is)..

I think I will start a new thread, which sprang from this one - the indie opportunities in the asian markets... what are they? Do they exist?

spoil sport :p

anyhow, as before, i didn't meant any offense to anyone :)

From the CIA World Factbook :


Hmm....well, I know better than to argue with the CIA. :)
Although, since we've been discussing this, it got me thinking. Most the time, I refer to the country as the U.S., yet refer to the nationality as American. Probably because "citizen of the United States" is just plain ackward.

However, I will try, from here out, to use U.S. instead of American whenever possible.

Originally posted by Siebharinn
Although, since we've been discussing this, it got me thinking. Most the time, I refer to the country as the U.S., yet refer to the nationality as American. Probably because "citizen of the United States" is just plain ackward.
Yes, now you mention it, I don't know your official word for nationality.

[useless trivia]
My country is commonly known as Uruguay. Its official name is "República Oriental del Uruguay", which means Republic to the East of the Uruguay. In fact, we are a tiny country on the eastern shore of the Uruguay river, which separates us from Argentina. So, in fact, our country has no name but directions on how to get to find it in a map :)

It's even more weird... our official nationality isn't "Uruguayo" (Uruguayan) but "Oriental" (Eastern)!
[/useless trivia]

The US case seems similar, you have no name either, but a description of your political system - a union of states.

Originally posted by papillon
(Supposedly Korea doesn't like to import Japanese stuff

I watched Michael Palin's Full Circle yesterday... they said there is actually a legal ban on imports from Japan! The Japanese occupied Korea for many years in the early part of the 20th century, and the Koreans are still miffed.

As for game sales in Korea, I think Dan was actually paraphrasing Gabe Newell who *did* say that they had not sold a single copy of Half-Life in Korea. Clearly, the experience of Blizzard shows that Valve was just doing something wrong...

Here's my 0.02 (insert denomination of your choice as I'd probably offend someone with my own)

If someone says to me "I'm American", then I would presume they're from the United States Of America. On a side note, according to dictionary.com 'The Continent' means mainland Europe - any non-mainland-Europeans find this offensive?

Chaster: You mention that you find that portrayals that backup racial stereotypes offensive. How about a Scot wearing a kilt? An Englishman wearing a bowler hat?

Chaster: You mention that you find that portrayals that backup racial stereotypes offensive. How about a Scot wearing a kilt? An Englishman wearing a bowler hat?

I'm pretty sure it is more insulting to have a portuguese wear a kilt..... :) (damn, leaving in two months back to portugal and still haven't bought one...)

But yeah, I guess each country has something they will find insulting if any other person does it for profit. I don't think we as portuguese have any, mostly because our customs are more by region than by country, but I do admit, making 'fun' of those regions by other regions isn't well accepted.