Hi guys,

First I'll start with my situation. I'm a 1st year University student who is currently majoring in Computer Science. Ever since grade 11 my dream in life is to primarily to create video games. Over the past weeks I have thought about dropping out. The primary reason is because I am unmotivated. A degree is wanted by most game development houses, but I feel going the independent route, I would not need this degree. I also feel that because of this unmotivation, I am getting nothing done while in university. It's grueling to study these courses even with skipping the lectures because of the fact this is not what I want to learn at the moment (some humanities courses, economics, whatnot). I think I could learn the material on my own because I would be motivated and I'm reading stuff that I'm curious about.

I experimented the last couple of days on what it would be like to not goto school. What happened was my brain used to think of school as a backup, like a security blanket, to succeed in life. After all, university offers a degree, internships, and cooperative programs. Without this security, I felt so much drive and motivation to work hard that I thought I could do anything. It's a little nervous and scary, but this is definately something I want to do. What do I want to do? Mainly, start a business, an independent game development business (wasn't it obvious). I have already created a Pocket PC game in a couple months that I had a bit of sales from, but I know I could do better if I had a lot more time and without the security of school.

I remember creating an online music database six years ago, and even profited when I referred people to music selling affiliates such as music boulevard (now part of amazon). This little guy's entrepeneurial mind (I was quite young) kind of died later on, for reasons I do not know of, but I want to be this guy again, the guy who tried to learn everything about computers and the internet. Except now it's more about game development and business.

I already talked to several people and they think I'm crazy, which really doesn't help much, but it's not as if my life is over, after all I could still get my degree later in life. My mom, however, has been quite supportive, she offered me a significant sum of money to start my entrepreneurial ways, so I have quite a bit of capital to work with. It might be the fact that my mom herself is an entrepreneur that saw what I'm trying to do.

From that point, I'm going to study as much as I can about programming, business, psychology, health, whatever, for a few months to educate myself better. The focus will probably be more on game development, however, as that is basically what the whole business is built on. Then I work on my business for several years. If at a point in time I really want to work at a game development company, I might consider the guildhall at SMU but I will probably have learned a lot by then to build an attractive portfolio or resume.

The main point of this post is to see what you guys think of my decision, feel free to say it's the worst decision I could ever make, or say something supportive. All I know is, my decision is pretty much set right now and I'm going in for a crazy ride.

Michael Le

In the previous calculus discussion I didn't know that this situation had gone so far. You were just asking how important math was, and now you are dropping university!

Why don't you try them together? There are lots of people who can even do double major and they can still do activities hobbies etc. You shouldn't hurry.

ergas

Originally posted by ergas
In the previous calculus discussion I didn't know that this situation had gone so far. You were just asking how important math was, and now you are dropping university!

Why don't you try them together? There are lots of people who can even do double major and they can still do activities hobbies etc. You shouldn't hurry.

ergas

Math isn't much of a problem anymore. As for doing a degree and working on hobbies together, the broken schedule nature of university tends to really kill my productivitiy. It is much easier to do a specific task at a specific time each day, and I think I would do it much better like that as well. Also, my brother did the degree, yet he is still learning material (web development) to try and get a job. The problem I see with that is that he didn't learn too much at university, and he's not as driven to work hard so needless to say he's having problems right now.

My first attempt at Uni failed miserably. I wasn't ready to try hard yet, and it showed. I didn't go to many classes and I barely passed classes I had an interest in. Those I had no interest in I never showed up for. I only stayed two and a half semesters (just long enough to find a wife).

I decided to take a break from school for a while. I found myself a nice crappy tech support/web programming job paying $7 a hour and lived miserably in a small apartment for two years.

I eventually went back to school when the time was right for me. I also did quite well, graduating with a 93.4% gpa and winning a couple awards. If I had stayed in school originally, I would have graduated with a 75% - 85% gpa at best. I also wouldn't be starting a shareware company. I would probably be working as a code monkey somewhere making very little and hateing every minute of it.

There is no wrong decision here. Going to Uni is right, dropping and going indie is right. These decisions become wrong when you dont keep at what youre doing, what will happen when the going gets tough? you'll change youre route again or will you try harder?

You didnt have any sucess with the Uni route since you weren't sure you even want to go there. Everytime youve entered a class or did homework there was a reoccuring thought in your head of an alternative and you didn't gave all you had.

I guess nobody liked school here (not as their main goal in life, c'mon... at least french ;) ), but we all finished it because we knew there's no alternative. We had to finish it. If you were to finish your degree, no alternative just as school, you would have done it by now. If you didn't have any alternative, or your mind was set up on finishing that goal, you would of done it. The only reason you didn't went ahead and finish your degree even though it was hard, is because you weren't commited on doing so.

There's a scene in a movie called "Fight Club", where Brad Pitt takes some random clerk and threaten him with a gun.


TYLER (Brad pitt)
what did you wanna be?

CLERK
a veterinarian

TYLER
Would you rather be dead?

CLERK
no

TYLER
I'm keeping your license. I know where you live. I'm going to check on you. If you aren't back in school on your way to being a veterinarian, you will be dead. Now, get the hell out of here.


sure, youre not pointed with a gun, threatened to finish Uni or to finish a game. but you would of gotten a degree if it was so, right?

Point is, that everybody CAN achieve their goals, but only if they put their mind and heart for it.

Choose the path, and commit on finishing it.

Good luck

I know you said you've made up your mind, but do think very carefully before leaving uni. I dropped out of uni a couple of years back, and found it very hard to get anything other than low-paid, low-skilled work - which is why I am now trying my luck as a full-time indie. If it doesn't work out, I will probably get a job in a warehouse again.

If your heart is set on it then so be it, however you could always dabble in your spare time, and then go full-time with it once you have finished your degree and have something to fall back on later.

Originally posted by Chandler
Math isn't much of a problem anymore. As for doing a degree and working on hobbies together, the broken schedule nature of university tends to really kill my productivitiy. It is much easier to do a specific task at a specific time each day, and I think I would do it much better like that as well. Also, my brother did the degree, yet he is still learning material (web development) to try and get a job. The problem I see with that is that he didn't learn too much at university, and he's not as driven to work hard so needless to say he's having problems right now.

When there was an exam that me and some friends hadn't prepared enough, we used to "relax", a behavior we got in those hard years. This behavior then turned to a habbit for some of the friends and they hardly finished school, and after they did, they mostly continued to relax in their jobs, too. I am afraid that you are relaxing. If you had decided to be soccer player, basketball player, or even an f1 racer, I could understand dropping university. But your alternative is very parallel to university. It is up to you, to make better use of school. University helps you if you try to find the right people there. If you don't, yes, university can't help.

If you are able to teach yourself, maybe you could change your major to a different field. Say, sociology, philosophy, economy... This way you learn at least two disciplines, which could bring a lot of advantages. I studies physics, and taught myself programming, now I do physical simulation programming, and that brings me lots of advantages. I would recommend you not to focus to a single point. While teaching yourself game development, the university might teach you some other things.

ergas

Originally posted by Chandler
I experimented the last couple of days on what it would be like to not goto school. What happened was my brain used to think of school as a backup, like a security blanket, to succeed in life. After all, university offers a degree, internships, and cooperative programs. Without this security, I felt so much drive and motivation to work hard that I thought I could do anything. It's a little nervous and scary, but this is definately something I want to do. What do I want to do? Mainly, start a business, an independent game development business (wasn't it obvious).

You touched on a very interesting point here. I pretty much got the degree for the same reasons -- as a "backup" or "safety net." This was a very bad reason to get the degree. Unfortunately, I've always been unconfident in myself and my choices (byproduct of how I was raised, but I'm getting better), and easily swayed by other people. So I bought into the reasons others told me to get a degree. I certainly didn't go to college to learn things, I went to get a piece of paper that will get me a job. I did end up learning some stuff though, but I'm sure I would've learned more if I had a different mindset.

For the record, the piece of paper hasn't gotten me a job yet (I graduated in August), so that sense of a "safety net" and "security" evaporated pretty quickly. Although the degree IS a requirement in most job postings I see (actually a lot do say "degree or equivalent experience"), it's a pretty silly one. This is because of how much experience and knowledge employers want from you these days. There are virtually no entry level programming jobs. I think there are none AT ALL. What I ended up doing is sending my resume to "mid to senior level" positions and I am actually getting some responses, but that's because I have over 3 years of C++ experience by spending time on game programming. The point? Even though you're "supposed" to have a degree, the bottom line for employers is what you know. A degree might get you an entry level programming job in a great market, but right now nobody gives a crap about your degree if you don't have experience. So it is my opinion that degrees are very overrated.

Back to what I was saying before -- about a year ago (I think after reading some of Steve's articles) I realized how much I've let other people influence my choices in life. Though at the time I started college I didn't think I wanted my own business. That I realized also about a year ago (I've always wanted to make games and thought I'd be fine with an industry job until I found out just how bad the conditions and pay are). Since I spent 3 years in college already, I decided I might as well finish it since I only had 1 year left. If I had known 100% like I do now that I wanted my own business at the time I started college, I wouldn't have gone. Why? Because all college would do for me is allow me to indulge in a false sense of security.

Sure, some people might say you're crazy. That's because they want a regular job, and for that you need a degree. 99% of people also don't know anything about starting/running a business and have no interest in it. So what you're hearing is a point of view of someone who has totally different goals in life (if they even have goals) which is why they think you're crazy. They just don't understand you. It's hard being in the minority of anything. For instance, now that I decided to become a vegetarian my friends and family think I'm being extreme/crazy. Your mom probably understands you since she's an entrepreneur herself, which is why she's supportive.

I guess what it comes down to is you have to make your life choices based on what YOU want. Just because everyone else is doing something doesn't mean it's right for you. That said, definitely consider why you want to drop out, and what college would give you. College CAN in fact teach you many things, and you CAN learn them yourself, but then you have to take an active approach, whereas college lets you take the passive approach (they pick what you learn and try to teach it to you).

But definitely don't get a degree just because everyone else does, or because other people are telling you that you should get it. Don't make the same mistake I did. But I'm not repeating it again -- my parents have tried to pressure me to get a Masters because "it's easier to get a job then" but since my ultimate goal is not to get a job but to have a business, I only see that as a waste of my time. Know thyself, then you will make the choice that is right for you.

Originally posted by simonh
I dropped out of uni a couple of years back, and found it very hard to get anything other than low-paid, low-skilled work - which is why I am now trying my luck as a full-time indie. If it doesn't work out, I will probably get a job in a warehouse again.

I just graduated with a CS degree and I might have to end up doing low-paid, low-skilled work, because there simply are no entry level programming jobs in this terrible market. Unless someone decides to take me for a mid-level position, which will be interesting. However, because I'm competing with programmers who have actual job experience, it's probably unlikely.

The comments so far are quite helpful and I thank you guys for that. I actually have two months to go back on my decision. Maybe I'll try a "30-day trial" and see how it goes. I also want to become a vegetarian if not a vegan, the health nutrition thread has been very informative.

I just graduated with a CS degree and I might have to end up doing low-paid, low-skilled work, because there simply are no entry level programming jobs in this terrible market. Unless someone decides to take me for a mid-level position, which will be interesting. However, because I'm competing with programmers who have actual job experience, it's probably unlikely

A degree isn't just helpful for getting a computer job though, it can help with getting all sorts of jobs which you may want to consider in the future. For example, if you wanted to become a teacher here in the UK, a degree (any degree) will enable you to take a teacher training course in one year - otherwise it takes six.

So Chandler just has to consider whether he should sacrifice the chance of being able to consider different job opportunities in the future, for the sake of pursuing a single, uncertain career path right away. If it works out then great, but if not then things could get bleak.

Originally posted by simonh

So Chandler just has to consider whether he should sacrifice the chance of being able to consider different job opportunities in the future, for the sake of pursuing a single, uncertain career path right away. If it works out then great, but if not then things could get bleak.

What you're saying implies a level of doubt in one's ability to succeed. If you treat going indie as an "uncertain career path" then I don't know how you're going to make it. I don't see it as "if it works out that's great, if not I'll do something else." I'm going to see to it that it works out, there is no other way for me. There is NOTHING else that I would want to do. Therefore, a degree is really not as useful to me as to someone else. Look at Steve for instance -- he himself has said that his degree is not worth much to him these days.

For example, if you wanted to become a teacher here in the UK, a degree (any degree) will enable you to take a teacher training course in one year
Uh huh. And now everyone I know is becoming a teacher. Seriously - I calculated it, and something like 50% of my friends at the time were training to becoming teachers. For many it's because that little bit of paper (ie their University degree) wasn't enough to get them a significant job. The people I knew at University either didn't get a job after graduating, or got a 6 month government contract... and that's it. So long as they continue their education, the University doesn't have to record them as people who were unable to find work.

I could ramble on about this topic for a long time, because I'm passionate about it... but instead I will say to Chandler, look inside and do what feels most right to you. Consider all the possibilities (could you be a part time student and do both?). Don't assume you'll get a job because you have a degree, or that your business will be an easy run. Nothing is for certain, unless you make it so. Good luck with whatever you choose.

being an indie gamer is a good thing but as we all know making money from this path is a difficult task and needs a lot of time (most people making profit here took more than 2 years to be able to work as a full time indie gamer). I'm afraid you may get disappointed after spending much time doing indie games without making money (when I get disappointed about my sales I start thinking in my other things in life that can make me money, then after sometime I can figure out what to do to improve my indie business), what I'm talking about is that you have to get something to secure you while doing this risky long-timed path.
plus you do not have experience, I'm not talking about your programming experience, I mean your experience in making a product ... my opinion is to continue ur uni. and make a plan to make games as a hobby until finishing ur uni, then I'm sure you can decide your career with better view.

You might want to estimate 3 years before getting a full-time income from your software sales, that should be a realistic goal. I started out while I was part-time at University and living with my parents, so I didn't have the pressure of rental bills. If you have commitments like that, you'll need to think about where the money is coming from.

I also have a casual job which helps - around 5 hours a week, but I can work from home and choose my hours (usually after midnight :) ). I currently earn about as much from my software, so it's 50/50 right now. I'm maybe halfway to what I regard as a full time income.

I sometimes get doubts about whether or not I NEED school... but then I just think to myself, "Suck it up!" and I get back on track. I also hope to be a full time indie someday, and I have no doubt in my mind that I will need a degree to suppliment my income for a while. I'm about a year and a half away from completing my CS degree at a university and a week or so away from releasing my first game. I'm trying to do both at the same time, and while its hard and grueling work making time to do both (not to mention a part time Network Admin job and a gf ;)) I think it makes me a more driven person to at least try my hardest to do all these things. So my advice to you: "Suck it up!"

-Bruno

I quit the University too a long time ago, but was studying something really different from computers (was Political Sciences).
I won't tell you if it is a good decision or not, but know this: even if you'll fail at indie dev, but you still can program in C really good, you'll get a place in a gamedev software house anyway.
The most important thing to get a programmer job is to show a good demo... not to have a degree.

I know quite a lot of ppl who have a degree in computers and are worse than me at programming (and I am surely not a good programmer!!!).

I spent five years in college getting a couple of bachelor's degrees in English and History. Sheesh. Yeah, those degrees sure helped me get a job -- at a chain bookstore.

I was staying (overstaying) in school because I didn't know what I wanted to do in life. I finally had to graduate and still didn't know. I didn't figure out much on that score until my late 30s.

I wish instead I'd taken off from school and travelled -- hitchhiked across the country or backpacked around the world. (I actually did backpack around the world at age 32, and it taught me more about what I want to do than college ever did.)

I wish I'd had something like these Dexterity forums (fora?) back in school. Steve's articles have inspired me. The point he makes over and over is to figure out what you want to do and find your own way to do it. If you take that message to heart while you're still young, you're moving faster than I did. Good luck!

Wow there are a lot more positive responses than I thought!, After I slept on my idea though, I might try to get a degree as fast as I can, like within 2 years instead of 4. My school is very flexible and I just realized there's a little financial problem with my idea. I have to pay back my student loans. My mom offered to fix it but I don't think I would feel comfortable with that.

Well, I still feel I wouldve done better if I started now but I'm going to have to postpone of going indie for just a year or so!

I think I'll just focus on becoming a vegetarian right now.

It seems to me from reading this thread and others that it takes time to build up a sufficient customer base to become profitable. With this in mind and the fact that you’re looking to drop the University, why not considering taking a part-time schedule at the University while concentrating on your indie development? Rather than take the predetermined courses why don't you concentrate your University schedule on courses that will help in administering your business? Rather than taking the programming related courses why not take some accounting, marketing, creative writing, and/or psychology classes? The main focus would be on your business and how to make your business better. If you can identify the needs of your business and then take courses related to those needs, you can only help out your profitability equation.

By taking a part-time schedule at the University you can devote more time to developing products and building a customer while still retaining the "safety" blanket of the University. The development of your products is only a small part of the whole of running a business. Use the University to gain as much as you can, but realize that at some point the law of diminishing returns will come into play. I recommend using the University at least one more year to help gain additional knowledge of running a business. Then if you still think the same way you'll at least have some products developed/in-development and you should have a customer base starting to build up.

Some courses that were especially helpful to me were Marketing and a Quality Assurance course.

Originally posted by Fenix Down
What you're saying implies a level of doubt in one's ability to succeed. If you treat going indie as an "uncertain career path" then I don't know how you're going to make it.

Of course it's an uncertain career path, at least to begin with. I think recognising that fact is actually a good thing, as then you know that you must try and do everything within your powers, to make a success of yourself.

If being a full-time indie was a safe, dependable profession, then everyone would be doing it, and parents would encourage their children to become one. As it is, it can have its risks and pitfalls.

Originally posted by Chandler

I already talked to several people and they think I'm crazy, which really doesn't help much, but it's not as if my life is over, after all I could still get my degree later in life. My mom, however, has been quite supportive, she offered me a significant sum of money to start my entrepreneurial ways, so I have quite a bit of capital to work with. It might be the fact that my mom herself is an entrepreneur that saw what I'm trying to do.
Michael Le

A wise man once said....

If you want to get into the lower-middle class, go to a state school...
If you want to get into the upper-middle class, go to an Ivy league school....
If you want to make a difference, drop out


As I've inferred before, one must be smart enough to get into college and wise enough to drop out. Did you know that John Carmack (creator of Doom) is a dropout.

Sure, people say those folks are exceptions. But let's look at the average college graduate -- they usually cannot find meaningful jobs. For the most part, a college degree infers that a person is willing to do bitch work; that this person cannot set goals for himself.

As an employer, I would hire these folks to do work that the passionate folks would never touch. The way I look at it is...you find dropouts to help drive the company and then hire graduates to do the boring/non-exciting work that eventually follows a successful entry into a market. I'm beginning to reconsider this mentality -- why even bother hiring college graduates? I could hire smart high school students and make them interns. In the process, I learn from them (and maybe even convince a few to drop out ;) )

You mentioned trying to go through the university in 2 years. Don't do it! Why would you do that? If you're going to go through college, the best experiences will be outside of the classroom!
You mentioned being an entrepreneur. Put yourself in the shoes of an employer trying to grow his/her business -- would you hire someone with credentials or someone with passion and experience. Someone that spent two years going through college or two years gaining experience developing products?

Look at the top-performing companies in the world -- most of them don't care whether you have credentials -- they want to see talent. Places like Microsoft and Google do not care much for credentials. If you've got talent, they will hire you. Only non-innovative/stagnant/non-growth companies look for degrees (and it's probably for the reason mentioned above -- that folks with degrees are willing to do boring work.)

At the same time, I know a degree opens the door to mediocre jobs. As mentioned in this thread -- many university folks are going into teaching. The fact of the matter is, teaching has the artificial requirement of having a degree; this is born from the state-supported educational monopoly that squelches innovation. We all know that the degree does not make these teachers smart. If you want to end up like them -- then follow their route.

It's not as if the degree makes teachers smarter. In fact -- at places like Harvard -- they don't really care about your credentials. If you have world-class experience -- they'll get you as a teacher. At the Kennedy Instituate at Harvard, they care more about a person's experience. I know the governor of our state got a teaching job there after finishing his time in office and he doesn't have many credentials.

Do you want to be one of those loser-type teachers that are high on credentials and low on talent?

So the question is....what do you want to do with your life? Do you want to be average or do you want to make a difference? Some folks would prefer to be average while spending time with their families. I would argue that one can excel in a career while still having time for family.

In any case, if you're going to drop out of school: have a plan! Don't just drop out this semester. Spend some time and figure out a plan that ensures you will have products ready soon after you drop out. You should also consider finding some of the few competent folks at your university and see whether they can help you develop the products (as it's hard to do all of this alone).

If you're taking student loans...then definitely make your plan soon. Is the knowledge from college worth the investment -- absolutely not (unless you're going to a top-tier college). It would be better to spend the tuition money on starting/growing the business. Or use that money to travel! I'll tell you this much, traveling will give you an unparalleled education in life. Chris Whittle -- a law-school dropout and founder of the successful Whittle Communications -- mentioned that his year of traveling did a lot to open up his mind.

In any case...good luck. And remember...follow the actions (not the words) of folks that you want to end up like.

Btw, do you think anyone would be interested in an E-book titled "How to drop out of college"? I think there might be demand for it.

Take care,
FinishIWannaBeA

P.S. The good the thing about being young is that you have a lot of energy. You may not have a lot of experience. So it'll be painful to go through the learning experences necessary to start a business. So...if you're not passionate, determined, or goal-oriented....then stay in school!

The only thing I miss about having not gone to traditional college or university is the opportunity to...ahem..."socialize" in that environment :) Otherwise the whole experience seems like such a waste of time when I look at what my friends who went to university got out of it.

This is why I swear by the little "tech" or business colleges. There is absolutely no fluff - if you want to know C++ then you take a 9 month course and that's all you learn. There are no "filler" courses in humanities and philosophy used to pad out the program. I took a 9 month 3D animation course and in a little over a year I was employed as a level artist alongside Sheridan (the big animation school) and BA grads. My education took 1/3 the amount of time and cost 1/4 of that of traditional universities but the end result in employment terms was the same. I just couldn't imagine being able to go indie if I had $20,000+ in student debt hovering over me.

A CS degree has nothing to do with games programming, I recommend looking up your local "arts institute" and seeing if they have a specific video game programming course. I know everyone with traditional degrees look down on people who come out of places like Devry or ITT tech, but then you can't argue with success and the tech colleges have better placement numbers than the universities (last I heard).

"My mom, however, has been quite supportive, she offered me a significant sum of money to start my entrepreneurial ways, so I have quite a bit of capital to work with."

Moms rule! Take her up on the offer :)

If you are not inspired by school right now, DROP OUT! I kept going to school long after I had lost interest, and all I did was waste time and money for 7 years.

You can always go to school later. I returned for a software degree when I was 25, and was on the deans list for two years. It's amazing the difference it makes when you really care about your studies.

Chase the dream now, while you're young and have the energy and few ties. School can wait.

If you find you lack the skills you need, then look at your local community college. Usually you can drop into a night class for C++, psychology, business or whatever else you need without having to formally enroll in a full-time program.

Originally posted by FinishIWannaBeA
A wise man once said....

If you want to get into the lower-middle class, go to a state school...
If you want to get into the upper-middle class, go to an Ivy league school....
If you want to make a difference, drop out

An incomplete list of professions that this advice does not apply to:
* Doctor
* Lawyer
* Psychologist
* Therapist
* Astronaut
* Teacher
* Minister
* Pharmacist
* Geneticist
* Professional Engineer
* Orchestra Conductor

To the original poster:

Speaking for myself, I got a lot out of a four-year BSEE program at a good school. I'm glad I didn't drop out. I learned a lot of stuff that seemed useless at the time, and some of it really has been useless to me as my career has progressed. Other things that seemed useless at the time turned out to be valuable later on. That's why they make you take a bunch of different things; because nobody knows exactly what you will or won't need to know downstream.

Then again, you may prefer to disregard my opinions since I am not now and do not have plans to become a fulltime indie game developer. I find game development makes a much better hobby than a fulltime job, both for my own needs and the financial well being of my family.

Everyone's needs and goals are different. I wish you luck in meeting yours.

I too am a first-year undergrad, currently considering exactly what degrees I want(probably a CS major and a history minor as of right now), and I definitely don't plan to drop out.

Nor do I plan to study hard and get a 4.0 average at all costs.

I'm going to do enough to pass and get my degrees and learn some good things(hopefully things I'm interested in - I really don't want to waste my time for the paper), but all the while, outside of the classroom, I'm spending my time doing the real work - studying and analyzing older games, working on the coding or the art or music skills, and working on my own games for practice and perhaps a "portfolio" if you could call it that. I might try to start an indie career during school, or hold off. I don't know if I want to be an indie yet, but I do know I want to make games, especially designing them. The various technical aspects are tough but I can already handle them competently, and part of getting the CS degree will be the motivation to practice the skill of coding until it's at an industry-usable level.

In my view, following my official study curriculum mindlessly is a dead-end. I have lots of better things to do. My parents are the ones paying, and I have slightly let on to what I'd like to do, but at the moment, at least, they are still operating under the assumption that the purpose of my major will to be to get a job using it. This is the source of some tension for me - I think my dad less so, since he built his own small software development company from scratch after floating through a few lousy programming jobs in the early 80s(not games - right now applications in medicine to aid in things like diagnoses). But my mom got burned by getting a music degree and then discovering as a classical harpist that if you don't get into an orchestra or become a world-famous performer, you are stuck playing one-time gigs, primarily weddings, for about $100 each for the rest of your life. She also tried operating a music store but ran into the sheet music monopoly, wherin you must buy tons of bad songs in order to get good ones. So while my dad seems mildly supportive, my mom displays her pessimism in the "what will you REALLY do" form. As of right now I just reassure them that I'll do a good job studying(and I will this quarter if I bother to practice calc problems enough to ace the final) and not waste my time.

Making some money off of a game would be a good way to get them off my back, but that's a challenge I'm not quite ready to take up yet. Maybe sometime next year though...

An incomplete list of professions that this advice does not apply to: ...
* Teacher
With a bit of lateral thinking you can get around this. If your goal is to educate people (but not necessarily teach in a school environment) you can go out there, become a success at something, note what it took to become a success at it and then write a book for others to follow... or give seminars... or become a business mentor... or perhaps become a private tutor, as I did when I was still in my second year at University. If you really want to be a teacher, perhaps you could find a private institution that doesn't require the same qualifications.

You don't have to tread the well beaten path unless you want to be the same as others - you can always find your own way.

Let's not forget that many of today's most influential and groundbreaking individuals DO have rather impressive academic degrees by their name. :)

The college degree (from a good school) means you have a well-rounded education incorporating other knowledge from outside your specialization, but it also makes sure you don't have too many embarassing holes in your knowledge of your discipline of choice. There's the adage I like to use that says if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. A college education helps make sure your box is full of much more efficient tools.

Finally - a lot of the discussion here is on what you can accomplish in spite of lacking a degree. I say in spite of, not because of. Having that piece of paper DOES open a lot of doors. Yeah, you can get over it... but you may spend more time "paying your dues" and proving yourself in other ways than you would have buckling down and getting the degree. A buddy of mine recently went back to school part-time to finish his degree, because in spite of the fact that he'd been an enterpreneur, an executive officer at a couple of companies, and a manager for a MAJOR technology corporation, he was still fighting against a perception that he was somehow unqualified because he lacked a degree. You *THINK* that it won't be important, but in business you HAVE to deal with other people - customers, investors, employees, etc. It's stupid and it's frustrating, but if they find out you are "less educated" they do have a tendancy to pigeonhole you. And you have to compete with people who don't have that kind of thing working against them.

In the end, it's your choice, and you can do well either way. But the way I look at it, choosing university means short-term hardship in exchange for an easier time going forward. Skipping university means short-term gains, but you are accepting a tougher time of it in the future. Just be sure of your choice.

Originally posted by Coyote
A buddy of mine recently went back to school part-time to finish his degree, because in spite of the fact that he'd been an enterpreneur, an executive officer at a couple of companies, and a manager for a MAJOR technology corporation, he was still fighting against a perception that he was somehow unqualified because he lacked a degree. You *THINK* that it won't be important, but in business you HAVE to deal with other people - customers, investors, employees, etc. It's stupid and it's frustrating, but if they find out you are "less educated" they do have a tendancy to pigeonhole you. And you have to compete with people who don't have that kind of thing working against them.



To be honest...maybe your friend is not smart enough to drop out (not everyone is). Ultimately -- results matter. Maybe he dropped out but didn't take time to read many books, become a self-learner, etc. If he's not going to learn on his own, then he should not drop out. If he cannot set his own goals, then he should not drop out.

Finally, keep in mind that he might be in a town that has ignorant thinking. If he is smart enough, he can go to a company in a competitive field and get a job. He might need to leave the town/area to find a job.

In any case, dropping out of Stanford grad school did not prevent the google founders from success. I suppose they had to fight the perception of not having a PhD when approaching VCs. But it didn't matter -- cuz they had talent and results to show.

Results are important. I'll admit that I'm struggling towards producing results. But once I produce them, I'm sure companies will be willing to hire me.

Peace,
FinishIWannaBeA

P.S. To respond to another post in the thread...there are two types of teachers:
1) Credentialed Teachers
2) The teacher mentioned in a later post (a teacher that gets hired to offer their experience and valuable knowledge).

You need a degree to be #1 but not #2. And keep in mind that most teachers that fall into #1 can only teach at places that lack resources/morale/direction to be effective (e.g. public schools). On the other hand, #2 usually teaches in a nice facility and never has to worry about resources/computer access/etc. Tony Robbins doesn't have a degree but ... hehe...he has a lot of resources handy when he decides to "teach".

Just on this point, it's also worth remembering that a degree can work against you. I was in a job interview where they made it clear they weren't really interested in my degree, but in the I programming I have done outside of the degree. I've also heard similar comments from other graduates in my year, that there's a degree of hostility towards the degree unless you can prove your worth by other means. Having seen the quality of coding from other graduates, I can understand why :) But this probably isn't a statistically significant sample, since it's only people I knew in my year group (I didn't know everybody).

A positive for a degree is that many Universities are desperate to keep their "those who found work" percentages high, and so they'll be eager to help you find a job (any job) through their careers advisors. The University I went to has a deal with Motorola to try and direct their best students to them - Motorola bought University land and built a software development centre just across the road from the computer science department. If you don't really want to be an Indie, that could be a good path.

Let's not forget that many of today's most influential and groundbreaking individuals DO have rather impressive academic degrees by their name.
Hey, could we start compiling a list of some of these? There *is* a lot of focus on those who drop out in the media, but not so much on those who pursue their degree to the end. It would be interesting to compare. Any suggestions?

In my opinion a degree is not a decisive factor in whether or not you can succeed in life. A degree is required if you want to play by the rules of society. That is, if you want to succeed within the system. What that means is basically getting some sort of job. If a job is what you're after, a degree is a must. If you want to have your own business, having a degree won't do you much good in the long run.

However, a degree can help initially. If you want to start a business (especially indie business which has fairly low overhead) you can get a temporary job to pay the bills and raise capital as you're starting out. The reason a degree helps here, is that a job you can get with a degree will generally pay twice as much as a job you could get without a degree (at least that's how it is here in the states). So you'll be able to raise capital and be able to quit the job much faster. That's what I'm planning to do, as soon as I can get a job. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Fenix Down
The reason a degree helps here, is that a job you can get with a degree will generally pay twice as much as a job you could get without a degree (at least that's how it is here in the states). So you'll be able to raise capital and be able to quit the job much faster. That's what I'm planning to do, as soon as I can get a job. :rolleyes:

I would be careful here. My friend did the same thing. The thing is, he was so stressed out from his day job that he couldn't work on stuff when he got home. If you're coding 8 hours at work, it's hard to do 8 more at home.

Maybe the best strategy is to get a low-stress job while developing your company. For example, I go through a temp agency and they have nice easy office jobs that requires little work and gives decent pay. To be sure, I did put in good work. The thing is...I know how to program computers so I can code VB scripts to do stuff they pay 3 full-time employees to do (like modifying Access/Excel files, etc). The thing is...the employees take 3 weeks to do it while it takes me 3 hours. So ... guess what I'm doing for the remaining 2.75 weeks ;)


- FinishIWannaBeA

Originally posted by FinishIWannaBeA
I would be careful here. My friend did the same thing. The thing is, he was so stressed out from his day job that he couldn't work on stuff when he got home. If you're coding 8 hours at work, it's hard to do 8 more at home.

Maybe the best strategy is to get a low-stress job while developing your company.

Yeah you're right. A high stress job won't help very much. I think I'll try temping/consulting as well, or some other low stress job even if the pay is lower.

I would be careful here. My friend did the same thing. The thing is, he was so stressed out from his day job that he couldn't work on stuff when he got home. If you're coding 8 hours at work, it's hard to do 8 more at home.
Your logic doesn't follow. Your friend's job has nothing to do with whether or not he has a degree. Maybe the higher-paying, higher-stress jobs become AVAILABLE to you after you have a degree, but in theory a degree doesn't close any doors - only opens them. He COULD get a job as a Quickie-Mart manager if he wanted to.

I say, "In Theory," because there are some low-to-mid-paying jobs that won't take you because you are overqualified. I guess they figure that you will jump ship as soon as a better job comes around, so their investment in your training & hiring will be lost.

Really, what that degree buys you is significantly increased opportunity and (supposedly more importantly) a greater education which you can apply to whatever field you pursue. What it costs you is about 4 years of your life which you COULD use doing something more productive - building your own empire.

I'm thinking maybe I can catch two rabbits at once....get a business degree MB - I think, that way you will have a degree that will help your business A LOT.

Originally posted by Coyote
Your logic doesn't follow. Your friend's job has nothing to do with whether or not he has a degree. Maybe the higher-paying, higher-stress jobs become AVAILABLE to you after you have a degree, but in theory a degree doesn't close any doors - only opens them. He COULD get a job as a Quickie-Mart manager if he wanted to.


My mistake. I jumped the gun here. My friend followed the same logic of the poster that inspired the comment. He mentioned getting a degree so he can get a high-paying job that pays off his student loans while he develops software on the side.

The reasoning is that the high-paying job drains you of the creative karma you have for the day.

-- FinishIWannaBeA

Originally posted by Mman
I'm thinking maybe I can catch two rabbits at once....get a business degree MB - I think, that way you will have a degree that will help your business A LOT.

With all due respect, a fair amount of successful entreprenuers do not have a business degree. In fact, I would venture that most folks that succeed in starting a business have no formal business training.

However, a business degree may be good for entering management.

- FinishIWannaBeA

I finished my CS degree about 2 years ago now, and I still don't have a programming job. Why? It's because all my schooling has taught me is to turn up on time, and hand in something which is enough of what they asked for by a particular time. I was so good at it, they gave me a distiction.

My problem is that I love programming, but I have no idea what I want to do with my life, so nothing worth doing ever gets done. Please, know what you really want to do and stop wasting time jumping through other people's hoops.

Now, I'm not saying I recommend bombing out of uni. It gives me great satisfaction telling everyone that I'm a graduate, because there are so many people who regret not following through with it. Those people have as little direction as I do, but they just didn't want to do the 'turn up on time' thing as well.

I'll finish my ramblings off by saying that, from my job hunting experience, a university degree is just a filter companies use to reduce the resumes they need to look at. They expect you actually learnt something useful at uni, but the real thing they want to see is experience. I have no visible experience, so my degree is not worth the time I spent doing it. If your going to stick with it, put your spare time to use making your first game. If you end up making a game that just doesn't sell, then at least you can show people you're not an idiot :)