After seeing Steve moving to Las Vegas, I reviewed an old post I made quite some time ago, "Cost of life" where I was curious to see what was the cost of living in the various countries in the world.

Now I posed myself this question: if I had already a good shareware business going, where I'd go to live?

Of course some options would be open only with a GOOD business - moving to California without a monthly income of 2000$ isn't possible (I'm talking about my "family", my girlfriend, 1 dog, 2 cats and 2 small rabbits! hehe)

I am particularly curious since, for example, I discovered that svero is living in Thailand, and he must have made that choice because he found that place good for him.

Well, if I could go living elsewhere than Italy, I'd like to try for sure Germany. Not the big cities, but more like the Bavarian countryside. A bit cold maybe, but I've been there 3 times and I liked it a lot (also the Austria was good).

If I could choose, I'd also go in Croatia for 2-3 months during summer: I've been there too last year, and it is a wonderful place (if you go to a small village near the sea, the inside is a bit spoil).

In general I'd like places where you can live peacefully, with a lot of green and not the bad huge traffic and smog found nowadays in all medium-big cities! :cool:

Anyone who has travelled a bit the world willing to share his impressions/suggestions?

If you don't mind being isolated, Guam is a beautiful place. Wish I had a decent camera while I was living there so I could show you guys. You absolutely can't beat the weather - 66 to 96 degrees, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Perfectly clear skies and water, lush green jungles and not as touristy as, say, Hawaii (just one Japanese tourist strip on the west side). It's not cheap to live there but there are worse places.

I'm a musician as well as a programmer so I'd rather stay close to a decent music scene. I like my current location: Phoenix, Arizona. It's very spread out so it doesn't seem as congested as other cities this size, unless you have to take a couple of the bad rush hour routes. As a work-at-home indie it would be great. You could get a nice, new home in the east valley and just stay out of downtown Phoenix altogether.

I myself don't think I want to move away from Chicago. A lot of people (including my fiance) think that I am crazy. Our winters are too cold and such.

Whatever. I love my winters here. I love snow. I couldn't stand to be somewhere with only one season like Florida or southern California.

But if I had to move somewhere, I would say Iowa. I have a friend from there, and when I visit, I love it. Maybe a similar country/farmland setting somewhere would be the best for me...

I like tropical places like southeast asia. Cheap to live, beautiful beaches, nice people. The only downsides are immigration rules and poor internet connections.

I find the idea of only living in one place to very intimidating. My long-term plan (10 years or so) is to move to Europe and basically live on that entire continent, moving around countries whenever I please. Being able to see as much of the world as possible is one of my highest priorities.

The Phoenix valley works well as an indie. Cheap living, good services, access to entertainment a big city provides when staying inside all day gets maddening. BTW, Diragor, the next Phoenix IGDA chapter meeting is Wednesday the 21st at the Art Institute of Phoenix.

I'd love to move to another country in the next few years. As a company we constantly joke about moving operations to some marvelous island. One of these days it'll move from an offhand comment to a serious idea...

Personally my vote goes to South East Asia. Have been to Thailand a couple of times, it has cheap food, cheap living, beautiful scenery. As someone said it's a shame about the internet connections. Would like to earn enough so I can go and travel for 6 months while writing my next game. Japan would be another place I'd like to live for a while, quite expensive though.

From a practical point of view Spain, Italy or Greece wouldn't be too bad. They're in the EU so we it's pretty simple to just up and move there.

From a practical point of view Spain, Italy or Greece wouldn't be too bad. They're in the EU so we it's pretty simple to just up and move there. As long as you don't mind dealing with the language barrier, local beurocracy, laws, traditions, etc. I don't think it's a trivial thing to contemplate. I really wish I'd learnt a second language growing up...

20thCB

I've been living in Vegas for four months now, and I really like it here so far. Outside the touristy areas, it's a fairly normal U.S. city, but I also enjoy the quirkiness of the Strip in small doses. A few weeks ago my family went to visit the Star Trek Deep Space 9 Promenade in the Las Vegas Hilton, where you can have lunch in Quark's Bar while watching Borg drones, Ferengi, and Klingons walking around, and the costumes and make-up are incredibly genuine looking. My daughter especially liked playing with the Tribbles and the food replicator. It's sort of an unreal place to live sometimes.

I was just playing poker at the Excalibur hotel earlier this evening, chatting with the woman next to me. I mentioned I had recently moved here from Los Angeles, and she asked me if it was hard for me to find a job here. That sort of made me realize how nice it is to have the freedom to move around without needing to worry about employment.

From a practical point of view Spain, Italy or Greece wouldn't be too bad.
Living in Italy, I must warn you: Italy isn't anymore that "CHEAP" country it used to be before the euro.
Thanks to our great government and lack of controls, prices here are DOUBLED.
Some quick example: going in a restaurant to eat fish = over 70 euro for EACH person (complete dinner).
Also, thanks to immigration, criminality has rose a lot in the big cities. And don't let me talk about traffic and huge transportation costs, the lack of green areas and the pollution...!

I definitely NOT reccomend anyone coming here :D isn't so bad like other places (Romania or other east-countries comes to mind) but I think that in 4-5 years Italy population will consist mostly of immigrants of which a lot could be criminals, this thanks to our great feeble laws that let "people" do anything they want... :(

Well I guess that geographically speaking I'm Jack_Norton's neighbour! Think of me as an offshore "terrone"*.. we get so much Italian TV that our culture overlaps pretty much most of Italy's :)

Malta has just joined in the EU as part of the recent enlargement but we haven't switched to the EURO yet.

The cost of living here is going up although it's still relatively cheap, or at least, the wages are.. consumables / electronics are comparatively high as always and automobiles cost at least twice as much thanks to an import levy.

The IT and Communication infrastructure is top notch.. we've had ADSL long before Italy for starters.

Still.. to keep a small family living decently you need at least the equivalent of US $20,000 - $25,000 dollars.

* Slang for Italians living in the south i.e. Sicilians

The IT and Communication infrastructure is top notch.. we've had ADSL long before Italy for starters.
not difficult to beat italian IT... I have a croatian friend who has far better comunications and lives in a small town ;)))

Still.. to keep a small family living decently you need at least the equivalent of US $20,000 - $25,000 dollars
well it depends on lot of things... is hard to define "decently".
I prefer comparisons with one people, not family: with a family you have lot of expenses:
- your wife goodies ;)
- children health/insurance/school/entertainment (huge expenses)
- larger houses
- more food expenses

I personally can live here in Italy with as few as 500 euros month, but I still live with my parents and don't have rent to pay... otherwise I'd need MINIMUM 1500 euro/month, because rents here in Italy are as expensive as 500-700 euros / month even for a simple apartment (not a full house!) and that's just insane if you ask me :eek:

70 euros per head ??? Are you sure you are not mistaken? I have some friends living in Italy and they sure don't pay these prices when they go out for dinner.

Portugal is rather cheap, you pay around 15-20 euros per head to have a good meal (yesterday for 3 people we paid 50 euros, but i ate more than i did during the entire week but my mom hardly ate anything)

Rents vary alot, from 300 euros a month in the city i live in for a 2 bedroom flat to 600 euros a month for a one bedroom flat in a big city.

Portugal is cheap compared to other countries, but you get what you pay for. Bad roads, bad goverment, high crime, stupid uneducated people, highest AIDS number in the EU, highest number of deaths in the streets (driving) in the EU, low salaries (average is around 600-700 euros), lack of benefits, lack of employee protection on various issues like being fired, etc etc etc. And no, it isn't the same in every country, I've lived in Scotland and I have friends living in various places around the world, and except for 3rd world countries, you can go anywhere and it is better than Portugal.

Having said this, I do love my Country and what it stands for :)

As for moving out, apart from Scotland which I really liked, Japan and Austria are next on my list. Another option would be Andorra or a similiar place but I'm afraid of the lack of business related support (reliable broadband, IT lawyers, etc) I may get there.

70 euros per head ??? Are you sure you are not mistaken? I have some friends living in Italy and they sure don't pay these prices when they go out for dinner.
hehe ok, I have inflated the prices a bit :)
that price is for someone going to eat fish in a luxury restaurant.
Last time we went to restaurant (probably the only one this year) we spent 45 euros in 2 persons:
1) 2 dish "Tortelloni"
2) grilled fish for 2
3) water

nothing more... surely isn't cheap :)

Austria is very interesting for me also, because I like green areas and can't stand the hot climates (even 30°C for me is already too much!). My only doubt about it is the IT connectivity... not sure they have DSL in small towns, and going to live in Vienna isn't my goal :p

Originally posted by Jack_Norton
hehe ok, I have inflated the prices a bit :)
that price is for someone going to eat fish in a luxury restaurant.
Last time we went to restaurant (probably the only one this year) we spent 45 euros in 2 persons:
1) 2 dish "Tortelloni"
2) grilled fish for 2
3) water

nothing more... surely isn't cheap :)

Austria is very interesting for me also, because I like green areas and can't stand the hot climates (even 30°C for me is already too much!). My only doubt about it is the IT connectivity... not sure they have DSL in small towns, and going to live in Vienna isn't my goal :p

Heh, heck I'll spend a lot more if i go eat lobter or shellfish (?) here too :)

I love Austria's country life, I would stay away from big cities as well, but even small cities (50,000) should have ADSL, but that is something to be researched. The good thing is that in a few years, I'm betting that satellite internet will be the new standard and I'm sure availability will be a lot easier then :)

Also, if this contract work is extended a couple months more, I'll have enough money to go to Japan next year AND Austria this year when snow starts to fall there!Wanna come ? :)

Also, if this contract work is extended a couple months more, I'll have enough money to go to Japan next year AND Austria this year when snow starts to fall there!Wanna come ?
hehe, I won't go alone, I have a GF, a cat, a dog and 2 dwarf rabbit to take care of :)

Bring the wabbits, they will double as backup food if we ever run out of money :)

Just kidding.


I wonder if greenland as adsl.... for some reason it always fascinated me :)

I talked with iakibuk (he is from austria) and he has wireless connection from the university which is cool :)
but don't know really the DSL situation there... I've read that austria isn't so advanced in connectivity too :(

I wonder if greenland as adsl.... for some reason it always fascinated me :)

http://www.tele.gl/index.jsp?id=dbb50e9ace0622f04d4d1343bb87b0bb&l=da

http://www.tele.gl/index.jsp?id=98f17304f64cab402a78b85c5a48fa0c&l=da

Incase you happen to know language ;) SO basically they should have ADSL atleast somewhere.

I also dream of moving somewhere in the Alps, having a house in the woods with a lake and a wolf as my pet, working with a notebook near a fireplace :)

But what are your plans for the language barrier? I speak spanish and an understandable english, but almost zero german and zero everything else. I know some people here (was it Anthony?) lives in Tokyio "as an illiterate" - isn't that unbearably hard? What would you do about this problem?

Originally posted by Jack_Norton
I talked with iakibuk (he is from austria) and he has wireless connection from the university which is cool :)
but don't know really the DSL situation there... I've read that austria isn't so advanced in connectivity too :(

go here (http://chello.at) , here (http://inode.at) and here (http://aon.at) for some of the most common (as far as i know) providers in austria (those sites are obviously in german, lemme know and i'll try to translate).
i think you should be able to get a good connection everywhere as long as you don't rent some house on top of some high mountain :D
altough vienna is the bigger city i heard only bad things about connectivity there.

oh and i definetely don't recommend hosting your server or website in austria, prices are generally too high. but that's a different story anyway.

wow thanks :)
I'll use the sites as practice to learn German ;)

Well, I don't plan to have an house on a top of a mountain, but not really close to big cities either... :D

I've found some nice houses here: http:/www.findmyhome.at but was wondering on which of those I could get DSL connection since some seems really isolated :)

Originally posted by ggambett
I also dream of moving somewhere in the Alps, having a house in the woods with a lake and a wolf as my pet, working with a notebook near a fireplace :)

But what are your plans for the language barrier? I speak spanish and an understandable english, but almost zero german and zero everything else. I know some people here (was it Anthony?) lives in Tokyio "as an illiterate" - isn't that unbearably hard? What would you do about this problem?

I speak Portuguese (native language), English (not native but rather well I think), Spanish (so so), French (I can read most things but don't understand half of it when a frenchman speaks, if spoken by a portuguese I can get most of it. I'm also learning Japanese and Portuguese sign language. German may be the next one i'll pick up if I ever get the time to study it. My goal is to be able to understand linguistics enough to be able to move anywhere and pick up the language easier :) Shame sign language changes alot from country to country :(

But I can assure being illiterate in a foreign country when you are all alone can be both scary but mostly funny experience :)

Hey guys, why Austria? You get the same here in Slovakia (well, we have Tatras insted of Alps) and it's much cheaper ;)

Ehm yes, but learning to speak Slovak (or what is the official language there) isn't much useful :p

(like it is useless learning Italian, don't misunderstand!)

Originally posted by ggambett
I also dream of moving somewhere in the Alps, having a house in the woods with a lake and a wolf as my pet, working with a notebook near a fireplace :)


That's where we are for the moment :)
instead of a lake we have the mediterranean sea though...

There's even DSL in the mountain, amazing for french service, i suspect someone of France Telecoms living nearby, it's just not right ( almost surrealist ) to have it there...

pat.

Originally posted by Jack_Norton
Ehm yes, but learning to speak Slovak (or what is the official language there) isn't much useful :p

(like it is useless learning Italian, don't misunderstand!)

There's no need to learn the Slovak language. People here speak English and German, in the south many people speak Hungarian, the vast majority understands Czech, and people in one region have gone crazy for French because PSA Peugeot Citroen is opening there a local branch. You just need to choose what suits you best :p

edit: I forgot that older generations remember Russian as well :)

Originally posted by patrox
That's where we are for the moment :)
instead of a lake we have the mediterranean sea though...

Close to Nice, am I right? I'm looking forward to playing Driv3r and (at least virtually) seeing where you live :)

There's no need to learn the Slovak language. People here speak English and German, in the south many people speak Hungarian, the vast majority understands Czech, and people in one region have gone crazy for French because PSA Peugeot Citroen is opening there a local branch. You just need to choose what suits you best
ehm, you mean that a LOT of people speak english or that "some" people can speak english?

even here in Italy you SHOULD learn english from school, but if you try to talk in english with someone you don't understand a thing :D

@Jack_Norton: You guys will have a hard time becoming fluent in English (or any other language for that matter) as long as you find most of your reading, video and other media in Italian. Ditch your copy of "Il Signore Degli Anelli" and grab the original "Lord Of The Rings" instead :)

Anyway, personally you seem to be quite fluent in English, at least in its written form!

Malta, having a tourist-based economy, being part of the British Commonwealth and because of its proximity to Italy was forced to adapt accordingly and hence the majority of the population has a practical knowledge of both English and Italian. As a matter of fact, English is classified as a second National Language besides Maltese, which is semitic / latin in origin. In short, the driving force behind our tri-lingual capability is the need to sustain our traditional tourist economy, and now, the emerging service-based economy.

Another consideration is that Malta, being small, simply doesn't have the manpower to translate most popular magazies and books, save, say, the classics.

And we also get plenty of TV in particular from the Italian media, which is my favourite.. I can't live without my daily dose of Camera Caffé (For the unaware, it is a daily sitcom in the style of Dilbert).

Like a few of the other members, I'm in Phoenix, Arizona. Unfortunately, making games isn't my full time job and I have a family (wife, kitten on the way) to take care of so I'm forced to work a boring (non-game programming) full time job. I'm able to live very well on about $30k/year + what my wife makes.

One day I hope to be able to make my living doing shareware game programming... And as much as I would love to move to Seattle or a place where it rains more than once every five years... I imagine I will spend the rest of my life in Phoenix and just travel a lot. It's hard to imagine moving since all my family and friends are here. And the cost of living isn't too bad either.

Which actually brings me to a question of my own. For those of you who only do games for a living... If you don't mind me asking... Is it possible to do it and make $35k-$40k/year? Just curious... :)

It seems like the availability of broadband carries a lot of weight with some folks. Speaking as someone who has lived without broadband internet now for almost 3 years, I can say that most of the time I don't miss it and I get by just fine with dialup. So, don't let the lack of high speed internet access keep you from living where you want--there is life without broadband. :)

Life without broadband? Impossible!!!

It's great to be back on broadband now I'm back in Tokyo. But I'd much rather be back in New Zealand, even if it means 56k forever...

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Canada. I have a couple friends from Spain and Croatia who love it here. Being born here myself, well, I'm biased. :). The US is in your backyard, and we share time zones, so working with US businesses is no problem. While I don't know the specifics, the cost of living is low outside Toronto and Vancouver. High speed Internet access is extremely competative. You can get 1.5 Meg+ DSL service for around $20 US, or cable, or some cities are testing other strange services like power line high speed internet. Good healthcare. A friend of was diagnosed with some liver disease, had his liver replaced, and the government covers some silly ammount of cost of his anti-rejection drugs (Worth something like $5000 a month, and he only pays like $100). Things tend to be a little cheap here, like an XBox, PS2 or GameCube with exchange comes to about $3-10 less here than in the US. Lots of little things. There's some minuses too, like 7-18% tax on goods depending on the province (state). However, I was in Los Angeles recently, and I must say some of the prices there are sick (though I'm sure it's one of the, if not the most expensive cities/state). It also snows durring the winter here, much like many middle and northern states.

So yeah, that's Canada.

Has anybody been to South Africa? I have American and British friends who have been here on holiday, fell in love with the place and moved here. We definately have the best weather in the world, Johannesburg at least. (Mild winters, always warm, summers are hot, but not blistering, never humid, never dry etc.)

Our currency is weak, although it has strengthend in the last few years; it was in fact the best performing currency last year. US Dollar to Rand is 1-7. A coke costs R4 A big Mac: R9

The people are fantastic.

We have broadband, although its a little costly, but no more than any other country.

We have an amazing road infrastructure, due to apartheid and being at 'war' for 50 years.

The population is roughly 3-4 million whites, 40 million blacks.

The water is safe to drink anywhere in the country and tastes fantastic (I cant say the same for the states).

A decent house costs about R300 000 but obviously that depends on where you live, siz etc.

We have plains, coasts, forests and tropical jungles.

You can travel to any place in SA via road or via plane. We haev 3 huge airports, Joburg international is one of the biggest in the southern hemisphere.

.... :)

kerchen: INFIDEL!!!

PoV: Canada is also tempting for me, but I'm not exactly sure if it is cheap (compared to most countries). I have family members that went there for a few weeks, stayed with friends, and still wasted a lot of money there. About sales tax, well, Portugal has 18.5% currently so it wouldn't suprise me that much, talking about taxes, 45% of my salary goes to the state, then I still have to pay 18.5% on what I buy, so technically, I only get 36.5%!!!! Again, I don't recommend anyone coming here =)

PoV, just to test the waters, care to take me in your home (or shed) for a couple weeks if I go there ? =)

Another thing, how are immigration laws in Canada, any site I can have real information about it (for some reaosn, there are always 50+ sites about immigration about any country, and there are always 50 different things you need to be able to move to them =( )

Nick: I'm not too keen on SA, but I have a friend moving there next month and he is planning to stay for a year in the beginning, I'll see what he says afterwards and decide if it is a possible place to move to =)

45% of my salary goes to the state, then I still have to pay 18.5% on what I buy, so technically, I only get 36.5%!!!!


Your maths is off. I make it to be 44.825%

yeah, something like that if you count the 18.5% on the 55% only, but heck, I STILL PAY more than what I earn. I REALLY need to get out of this place (AGAIN).

Anyway, personally you seem to be quite fluent in English, at least in its written form!
I know english well, was talking about the OTHER italians! I mean the average italian that walk in the street ;)

Life without broadband? Impossible!!!
hehe I agree :)
I have a bad ISDN connection here that has a sort of "time limited" connection. You have 8-9 hours a day to use. It may seems a lot... until you find a customer that report a crashing bug on your new release and your hours are due... :P

I don't need high speed: just a reliable always-on connection!!!

Over here we have 512Kbit ADSL download / 128Kbits upload at about US$ 45 / month.

You can get 128Kbit download / 64kbit upload for about US$ 30 / month.

The service, or at least the ISP I use, is very reliable.

Originally posted by Nemesis
Over here we have 512Kbit ADSL download / 128Kbits upload at about US$ 45 / month.

You can get 128Kbit download / 64kbit upload for about US$ 30 / month.

The service, or at least the ISP I use, is very reliable.

over here cable modem, 500Kbit is about 25USD per month...
they started offering 2Mbit packages, but thats way too much for me.

Originally posted by gilzu
over here cable modem, 500Kbit is about 25USD per month...
they started offering 2Mbit packages, but thats way too much for me.

:mad: no fair! :mad:

Man, it's quite cheap at your end! Is the quality good? uptime?

Originally posted by Nemesis
:mad: no fair! :mad:

Man, it's quite cheap at your end! Is the quality good? uptime?

great quality, computer is 24hrs on dling stuff, same prices for ADSL btw. here they propose for about 30$ for 2Mb (http://www.zahav.net.il/adsl/), only in hebrew& Israel - sorry ;)

well if you live in big cities, even here in Italy we have fast connections... a friend of mine has 10mbit connection (downloads a full cd-rom in 20 minutes) and lives only 25km from my town :(

@ Jack_Norton: Mo ssi propio sfigato! ;)

@ gilzu: would I qualify if I told you I'm kinda semitic? :)