Hi,

Well, when you are discussing the preparation of cooperative CD in the near "Buzz" thread looks like these guys already help us to make buzz with our game by the same way. :D

http://www.garagedeveloperinternational.com/profile/cdroms.html

Fun thing that they SELL cd-roms with our games (WildSnake Pinball) but I don't remember that I ever was giving to them any permission to do such "help" to us. ;)

I'll really appreciate to hear your opinions and advices on situation.

PS BTW you are welcome to check if your games are published as well. :D

Thanks,

I have seen shareware EULAs that say basically:
"You are allowed to redistribute the shareware demo, but you are not allowed to redistribute the full version."

Is this what you have? If so, I don't know what else you can do, because they are basically doing what they are doing legally (unless they are distributing the full version, in which case they are not).

If anything, you are getting free advertising, and they are getting the abililty to bundle some games with a quality game some people might recognize.

If this is not something you would like to happen, you might need to change the EULA.

If your EULA does not allow them to do this, let them know. If they don't do anything about it, consult your lawyer.

EDIT:
I just checked out the site:


The developers of the games featured on our CDRom series have been gracious enough to allow their demos the opportunity to be played by you. Our CDRom series acts as your gateway to many of these fun and unknown independent game demos. If you enjoy any of them, please visit the developer's website and purchase the full versions of their games.

So apparently they assumed you let them do this. Do you have a separate publisher that maybe let them do so?

> Do you have a separate publisher that maybe let them do so?

Big Fish Games? :D

I hardly doubt they'd become working with these guys.

Assuming our EULA we don't let to redistribuite either full version or demo version of our games without our permission.

No, we'll obviously not die from this issue. But our games were made in very comfortable offices. And we had spent amount of efforts, time and money to organize them. Not in garage :p

PS You are right! I should check our EULA and Terms of Use more carefully...

I actually think this is fine. Good free advertising. Hopefully they're not charging too much, but they will have to cover expenses and from a consumer point of view it's worth it for the convenience. From a developer's point of view it can only help.

Anyone know what the platform game is on the vol 2 box shot that has the rainbow in it?

So how is this not a good thing? Plenty of internet sites do the same thing by the way - simtel.net is one I remember.

It's probably tempting to get annoyed at someone else making money off your demo, but letting them get away with it will probably increase your sales. Attempting to have your game removed will result in no benefit, and can cost you a lot of time and frustration. I think the right course of action is to be happy your game is on cd, and to make the most of this opportunity.

The site doesn't bother to make it very clear that these are demos that they are selling though, seems intended to mislead.

Yeah it would be one thing if they distributed the full version of the game without your permission, but they are distributing the version of the game that you yourself WANT people to distribute.

If you don't want them to profit from doing so, you can put in your EULA that they may redistribute your demo, whether alone or in a compilation, so long as they do not charge for it. While it is advertising for your game, if people get pissed off about it for any reason ("I thought these were all the full version!"), then your game gets egg on its face through afilliation. I was going to say it isn't your fault, but it would be because you should be able to protect against that in your EULA. It is better to make sure that distribution of your product is on your terms and not someone else's.

Then again, perhaps this actually works out for everyone, so it might be good to get this kind of "free" advertising. It's your EULA, so you make the decision I guess. Not thinking about it too hard, I would probably let it happen, thinking that such exposure would be good. I have no experience, but that is my opinion currently.

What do you think about these parts of our EULA?

"2. DESCRIPTION OF OTHER RIGHTS AND LIMITATIONS.
- Not for Resale Software. You may not resell the SOFTWARE PRODUCT.
- Commercial Usage. You may not use the SOFTWARE PRODUCT for any commercial purpose."

It says about demo version as well - meaning it even written in demo version.

(May I ask you for a favor. Let we interpret this discussion in a little bit another manner. Let we discussion not this concrete case with that garage guys but use this case as example to recommend me correct EULA terms.)

So, isn't that enough for us to be safed from such cases?

Thanks for your patience, :D

Simtel.net - is absolutely another case - I gave them permission when I was submitting product to their site....

Originally posted by WildSnake
Hi,

Well, when you are discussing the preparation of cooperative CD in the near "Buzz" thread looks like these guys already help us to make buzz with our game by the same way. :D

http://www.garagedeveloperinternational.com/profile/cdroms.html

Fun thing that they SELL cd-roms with our games (WildSnake Pinball) but I don't remember that I ever was giving to them any permission to do such "help" to us. ;)

I'll really appreciate to hear your opinions and advices on situation.

PS BTW you are welcome to check if your games are published as well. :D

Thanks,


the cdroms only contain "demos" and
starting with Volume 7....
graphical advertisements from companies
and small businesses.
the cdroms are sold to people who come to our retail store.
:)

Personally I'm ok with anything that distributes our demos. To me it's just free advertising. It's a lot of work putting together a package and shipping it etc.. so I don't begrudge a company making of few bucks off a collection of demos. I'm not sure in what sort of scenario I'd be unhappy with it so long as the demos remained unmodified.

Most places will write to us and get explicit permission before they add the demo to a CD of any kind though. Usually this comes in the form of magazine cover CDs.

Originally posted by svero
Most places will write to us and get explicit permission before they add the demo to a CD of any kind though.

Good point svero! :D

Bad scenario? Well, let me guess some: adware, viruses, demo doesn't work on customer PC (but he/she paid for it!), usage to advertise competitors products... :confused:

Originally posted by WildSnake
Bad scenario? Well, let me guess some: adware, viruses, demo doesn't work on customer PC (but he/she paid for it!), usage to advertise competitors products... :confused:

Yep.. those all sound bad. Course some of them involve modifying the demo which was more or less the 1 proviso I had.

Originally posted by svero
Course some of them involve modifying the demo which was more or less the 1 proviso I had.

But as far as I know nobody from there doesn't disturb themeselves by idea to approve me that they didn't modify our demo. Of course if they are selling demo...

That's why we prefer to have the full control on our demo appearence in different archives and to not react on all their cheap words about "free advertising".
That's why we are standing against the danger to loose some customers but ask ALL our publsihers to not include our games in any bundles...
We like to be honest with our potential customers. We like them to know that.

I'm really sorry for these laud statements. But this is really marketing politics of our company. And I had repeated it here just only explain why I'm really disappointed by behaviour of such companies like these garagedevelopers.

PS Your opinions are very important for me.

Thanks,

Im afraid short of barring it with legality, which by the way would have been as simple as putting the words "it is unlawful to transfer this demo product on to other mediums" that people running a business don't care what your plans are.

They have their own plans. Its your job to protect your ass, and if you don't it is not their problem.

This is why business persons have such a bad reputation, most lack any sense of ethics and every business person sometime in their life (who works for any company) will be asked to, at some point, do something that may not agree with their principals. That is: Forget that you have any.

Would it have been nice for you to be informed, yeah, sure, but consider it a hard (actually not so bad... many worse ways to get 'hurt') lesson learned.

If you have a marketing plan it is your job to protect it. Me? If I felt that this act was damaging my image I would file a cease and desist e-mail with them, and make an additional threat that failure to comply may result in legal action. Dispite the fact you have no legal ground to stand on, the threat may be enough that they deem it worthwhile to stop.

Meanwhile I would find some foreign hacker who has knowledge of CC fraud, file 10,000 fraudulent claims and bankrupt their company through chargebacks. (Im joking, but I heard a story recently where this happened. 80,000 dollars in chargebacks accumulated in less than a week. There is suspicion it was, again, a business man without ethics.)

Joseph Lieberman, the cynical.

Originally posted by WildSnake
That's why we prefer to have the full control on our demo appearence in different archives and to not react on all their cheap words about "free advertising".


Sure. Well it's certainly smart to retain control over all appearances and distribution of any of your creative work in any form, and indeed bigger companies do their best to ensure that it's the case.

However I think this is a case of effort vs. reward. How important is it to safeguard the demo's distribution? What is the actual risk of not tightly controlling it? and what are the downsides to controlling it too much? I've had demos out for years and have yet to be bitten by this in a bad way. I'm not saying it can't happen, just that I think the worse case scenarios are unlikely and don't come about often enough for me to spend too much time policing how my demos are distributed. I think it's in my best interest to propogate the files as much as possible in most cases.

And lets say in some worse case scenario someone who was very malicious or had no integrity decided to hack the demo and use it to sell illegal pornography in such a way as it looked like I was promoting the stuff, would a warning clause in my demo's EULA prevent that kind of person from taking advantage? Personally I doubt it.

Originally posted by WildSnake
But as far as I know nobody from there doesn't disturb themeselves by idea to approve me that they didn't modify our demo. Of course if they are selling demo...

That's why we prefer to have the full control on our demo appearence in different archives and to not react on all their cheap words about "free advertising".
That's why we are standing against the danger to loose some customers but ask ALL our publsihers to not include our games in any bundles...
We like to be honest with our potential customers. We like them to know that.

I'm really sorry for these laud statements. But this is really marketing politics of our company. And I had repeated it here just only explain why I'm really disappointed by behaviour of such companies like these garagedevelopers.

PS Your opinions are very important for me.

Thanks,

WildSnake,
the demos are not modified and no adware/spyware is used.
it's simply a cdrom collection that has game demos on them.

months ago, i had submission forms containing an agreement
that developers filled out that granted permission to distribute
their game demos. but i wound up having similar experiences
to the one mentioned in another post on here concerning
the formail script. so it was taken down.

i apologize for not asking for permission previously.
your games were downloaded, played, and featured
on the cdrom simply because i thought they were cool.

we don't do "cheap" advertising, it's "cheaper" advertising.:)

my place of business is not in a garage, it's located in
downtown FuQuay-Varina, NC.:)

Originally posted by GLIPSEntertainment
i apologize for not asking for permission previously.
your games were downloaded, played, and featured
on the cdrom simply because i thought they were cool.

Well duhh, why would he want the free demos to his games featured on a CD that could end up in potential customers hands? That's crazy talk!

Wait, actually, that is the point. Nevermind, what was I thinking? ;)

Well duhh, why would he want the free demos to his games featured on a CD that could end up in potential customers hands?

You want to control where and how your products are seen for the same reason you want a good-looking website; a clean, professional business card; and appealing graphics (be they simple or fancy). These things represent your product and your company. If you are creating a children's game, you might not want it packaged in with "Debbie Does Dallas -- The Interactive Edition." You might also give them a pass if their packaging is shoddy. Or, you might feel that simply being one of "250 GREAT SHAREWARE AND FREEWARE GAMES ON THIS CD!!!" cheapens your product. As GLIPSEntertainment pointed out, someone might also package your game on a CD that installs spyware.

Nevermind, what was I thinking?

I get your point, but I disagree with it. :)

GLIPSEntertainment,

Really I don't care in what downtown are placed your offices. Your CD's from garagedevelopers represents us by the way like OUR offices are placed in garage. :D
But this is not too big pain by anyway.

My real point only: you MUST to ask the permission from anybody to place their software on any media - that's how most of respetive companies are working. I'm afraid in your hunt for 4500 collection you forgot on a minutes kind of corporate ethics. Don't you?

Thanks,

Originally posted by WildSnake
My real point only: you MUST to ask the permission from anybody to place their software on any media - that's how most of respetive companies are working. I'm afraid in your hunt for 4500 collection you forgot on a minutes kind of corporate ethics. Don't you?

That's good stuff. In the month you've been here you've called me a racist and Glips unethical, even after he apologized to you. It's great to have you on board!

Besides, while it's a good idea to get permission before placing a free demo on any demo disk, many developers encourage people to freely distribute their demos to as many people as possible. It's a good thing you reviewed your EULA after getting in a huff and didn't jump to any conclusions :rolleyes:

Well I would certainly be happy to appear on one. But I guess not everyone feels the same way, and these wishes should be respected. I'm sure it was an honest mistake as people who object to their demo being distributed are surely a minority.

But more importantly: ;)
Anyone know what the platform game is on the vol 2 box shot that has the rainbow in it?

Gregory,

What do you prefer? Should I answer you in the same manner as you are or just ask you to focus on the subject of the topic?

1. Our EULA doesn't let anybody to print and sell our demos on CDs. And it was written specifically with this idea in mind.
2. The company made steps which act against our EULA and Terms of Use.
3. You suppose that this is correct.

Thanks a lot for your opinion.

But in fairness, nobody ever reads EULAs. All right, so if you're compiling shareware CDs you probably should be reading the EULAs more carefully - but as the majority of shareware authors actively encourage the distribution of their demos, I find it very easy to believe that this was just an oversight.

So file a lawsuit for defimation of character and violation of EULA already.

Joseph Lieberman

Originally posted by WildSnake
Gregory,

What do you prefer? Should I answer you in the same manner as you are or just ask you to focus on the subject of the topic?

1. Our EULA doesn't let anybody to print and sell our demos on CDs. And it was written specifically with this idea in mind.
2. The company made steps which act against our EULA and Terms of Use.
3. You suppose that this is correct.

Thanks a lot for your opinion.

:rolleyes: dude
umm....the apology is there. and again i apologize for
featuring your demo on the cdrom without your permission.
accept it if you wish.:)

but prolonging this is serving no purpose, if you'd like to
continue discussing this further...feel free to email me please.:)

GLIPSEntertainment,

I'm pardon to not let you know this in my previous message. You appologize is accepted. I see you weren't meaning anything bad to our company and products.

Really I was starting this thread mostly to check with another forum members if our own position in control of our demo movement is reasonable and correct. Result is as always something near to 50/50 :D

NO - we are not planning any lawsuit connected to this case.

Thanks to all for your opinions. That was very useful.

Ah, so it was all a big misunderstanding and everyone is happy now...right?

And is anyone going to answer the question about what game is featured on Vol 2? I have to admit, my curiosity is peaked.

Originally posted by GBGames
Ah, so it was all a big misunderstanding and everyone is happy now...right?

And is anyone going to answer the question about what game is featured on Vol 2? I have to admit, my curiosity is peaked.

everthing's cool afaic:)

dweebs 2: the new breed from mutation software
www.mutationsoftware.com