Hi, I was wondering what the language of choice for web based games is (that may or may not also have downloadable counter-parts)?? Java, Flash, shockwave? and what IDE's are used for each? This medium is a little new for me, but I would love any pros and cons or any other advice on the subject. Thanks

I perfer Flash. The main deciding factor for me was size (of both its player (~.5 megs) and the files it plays, SWFs) and Flash Player installation size.

Director (shockwave) is very cool, and very capable but its player it quite large (~3.5 megs) and it has quite a steep learning curve. Its newest version, due out next month (of the IDE not the player), will allow scripting to be accomplished via JavaScript, not just Lingo: I'll take another look at that time.

BTW, Flash's scripting language is called ActionScript which is, for all intents and purposes, JavaScript.

As far as IDEs, Flash files are created in Macromedia Flash MX 2004 and Shockwave files are created in Director MX 2004 (this is the new version due next month).

check out www.macromedia.com for more info
David

1) Javascript will get you nowhere... :)
(heh... actually I remembered a "Vampire game" which I started doing many years ago using CGI text database and Javascript. It's finnish text´but NOT A LOT - so you can guess what you can do: http://www.vampirecgi.spyw.com/
... basically you must first select your character, normal window and then you can move in different locations)
...if you got interested I can dig the source code (can't quarantee if I find it but I can do this if you want)

2) Java is perhaps little too heavy but can produce lots of stuff

3) Flash can do good.
=> I'd recommend flash.

and maybe you should try to search for game types you'd like to create and see what technology they use.

Originally posted by Morphecy
and maybe you should try to search for game types you'd like to create and see what technology they use.

I was on popcaps page and they say: Free and easy! All our games play right in your browser. They're all 100% java, so no downloads or plug-ins are needed.

Without reading that I wouldn't have guessed it... do they use something special integrated with java?

No, just plain shitty Java 1.1. It's an uphill struggle trying to get decent performance / features out of 1.1 though. I'd use 1.4.2 or later and try and tempt customers to upgrade.

Cas :)

Our web game uses JS and html1.1, but its not like your normal web based game ;-)

So my 2 cents aren't even worth 2 cents.

Joseph Lieberman

Alot of folks find flash to be a great way to develop cross-platform games, while learning the IDE can be really daunting and frustrating for HTML/XML types like me. I've managed to find a very interesting and promising development environment that gives you the freedom of using flash, while still being able to use xml and javascript for the UI and logic. There's a company called LaszloSystems ( http://www.laszlosystems.com ) which has an app which will take xml, images, mp3's etc. and create on the server side flash applications... I've found it braindead easy to develop for, and having the output be flash makes it accessible to a wide audience. It's relatively new, so there's not too many applications developed on it, but I know of many in the works... If you go to the mylaszlo site ( http://www.mylaszlo.com ) you can see a few game examples... It appears that while it wasnt originally designed to do games specifically, it's really suitable for retro- 2d style games.


Here's a link to some really impressive demos: http://laszlosystems.com/demos/

It's worth noting that Popcap's web version of Zuma doesn't use Java, but rather a custom ActiveX control as an engine. It recently launched--the web version wasn't available when they launched the downloadable game in December.

Personally, we use Virtools (http://www.virtools.com) for the web version of our game. It's performed decently, despite requiring installation of a low market penetration plugin.

Originally posted by Terin
Our web game uses JS and html1.1, but its not like your normal web based game ;-)


Wow, that looks pretty damn amazing for using javascript and html only!

Just to touch upon something Princec said:

I was also concerned about the version of Java than would be available on the users system (if any, ... I'm still not sure whats going on with Java and windowXP systems). And distributing the large Java runtime with my game or asking the user to D/L and install it, was not an option.

The Flash Player, on the other hand, which is seems to get updated about every 18-24 months, has a very fast uptake rate: looking at the last couple version (5 and 6), it has taken about ~18 months for each to go from 0% installed base to 60%+ (thats about 285+ million web users; version 6, released early 2002, is currently around 91.8%) Version 7 should be no different.

Look here (http://www.macromedia.com/software/player_census/flashplayer/version_penetration.html) to see more information about where i'm getting those numbers come.

David

Shockwave all the way.

I'd say it's the most robust web application for games out there. It can handle bitmaps with ease (unlike Flash) and can generate images on the fly. I've seen some amazing 2D games done with shockwave.

Also, I think it would be real easy to do puzzle games with shockwave. Considering how many people around here do puzzle games, I'm surprised Shockwave isn't used as much.

It's 3D engine is pretty impressive too. Unfortunately, there are tons of demos, but very few full-fledge games that take advantage of it. Documentation is pretty sparse, you have to really dig and do a lot of experimentation yourself.

Also, Shockwave does have a bit of a learning curve. But in my opinion it's worth it. While not as high as Flash, the Shockwave plugin has about the same penetration as Microsoft's Windows Media Player, which is pretty good. Additionally, you can easily export your shockwave game as a stand-alone application. So with a click of a button, you have both a Web game and a downloadable.

It also can export to a Mac version (though you'll need to have a Mac computer). So with very little work, you can have your game in three formats, Web game, downloadable, and Mac version. I think few other web game languages can boast this.

Finally, unlike Java, if the user doesn't have the shockwave plugin, the plugin downloads almost seamlessly with just a click of a button. The user doesn't have to install any separate files or configure anything. Even the Virtools plugin seems awkward in comparison. Installing the shockwave plugin is pretty brainless. The only downside is the plugin might take a few minutes to download if they're on a slow dialup connection. But if someone is on a slow dialup connection, they're probably use to waiting these days anyway. :)

Finally, unlike Java, if the user doesn't have the shockwave plugin, the plugin downloads almost seamlessly with just a click of a button. The user doesn't have to install any separate files or configure anything.
I take it you haven't installed Java for a couple of years then...?

Cas :)

I guess not... :) I just keep hearing some people have problems getting the latest Java runtime.

What's the process these days?

Pretty much just surf here (http://www.java.com) and click Get Java. You can take care of automatically getting it when necessary with a bit of Javascript and such (Puzzle Pirates does this). All in all it's about as simple as you can get.

The best bit comes when you can then just point people at games (http://www.puppygames.net/downloads/alienflux-full.jnlp) and it takes care of all the installation etc. for you. One-click web install for the punter. Marvellous :)

Cas :)

Cool, yeah that's how shockwave works. :)

Originally posted by princec


The best bit comes when you can then just point people at games (http://www.puppygames.net/downloads/alienflux-full.jnlp) and it takes care of all the installation etc. for you. One-click web install for the punter. Marvellous :)



Clicking the link gets it to download smoothly.

However, the Security Warning box that says,

"This application is requesting unrestricted access to your local machine and network.
Do you want to install and run: Alien Flux 1.5c
Signed and distributed by: Puppy Games
Warning: Failed to verify the authenticity of this certificate. No assertions can be made of the origin or validity of the code.
It is highly recommended not to install and run this code."

seems like it would discourage people.

Not that downloading any other type of game and running it on your own computer wouldn't come with the same risks -- just that most other installers don't come with a "It is highly recommended not to install and run this code." warning.

Sadly I'm too poor to afford a code signing certificate right now :( But isn't it great that you could be certain of trusting it if it were signed?

Cas :)

So for you shockwave and flash fans, how do you control your "demo" and "full" versions? Do you only do a demo version in flash/shockwave and a "full" version in C++, etc? If so, I would imagine this would present the problem of users having no problem on the flash version and then discovering that the C++ version has some kind of problem thus resulting in a refund and a bad customer experience?

Or do you use some kind of scheme for protecting the flash/shockwave versions using registration keys, etc? Or do these, err, languages have some built-in support for this functionality?

And have you guys really shelled out $900 for Studio MX, or is there some less expensive way to do shockwave/flash?

"borrowed from work" no doubt, like most everyone else's expensive software here I suspect.

Cas :)
(user of free Java dev tools :P )

@Punchy

You could do that, but that would be a lot more work creating a shockwave and C++ version.

As I said earlier, shockwave can export as a stand-alone .exe (or Mac) file. So you can use shockwave for both your demo and full version (I'm not sure if this is possible with Flash).

@princec

There are still some of us who pay for our software legitimately (even if it's expensive). I see it as an investment. Almost all of my software packages I paid for, paid for themselves after the first or second project I did.

Originally posted by princec
Sadly I'm too poor to afford a code signing certificate right now :( But isn't it great that you could be certain of trusting it if it were signed?

Cas :)

Just to clarify for someone who knows nothing about Java development:

How much does a "code signing certificate" cost?

When you have a certificate, does it show up with some message like "Always trust content from Gator corporation?" or does it just run the software?

Chirs_Evans: I realize you can build it to an .exe, but my question is, how do you handle registration, etc? What kind of flexibility do you have with Shockwave to implement your own software protection schemes, or possibly even 3rd-party solutions?

A code signing cert. costs about the same or a little more than an SSL cert. When signed code is downloaded, the dialog box says something along the lines of "This application is certified to have come from Puppy Games. Do you want to give this application access to your system? Only say yes if you trust Puppy Games." or somesuch. As it is, we've got a self-signed certificate, which does nothing except prove that it all came from one place - hence the warning!

It's a huuuge step forward in security for the end user (not least because it runs in a VM as well), the likes of which are simply impossible with any other technology, apart from dot net.

Cas :)

@Punchy

Sorry for the delayed response. I didn't see your post. Anyway, you can use this http://www.sampson-multimedia.com/ for different registration methods with Director. Or you can make your own custom solution.

Chris_Evans: Cool, thanks!