Hello all, this is my first time both browsing and posting here. :)
Please forgive me if my questions are complete noob.

I've been toying with the idea of going indepedent lately, but I've got a family to provide for so I have to be careful. I've got good benefits and health care where I am now. ;)

Just how tough (or easy?) is it to 'make it' in this biz? Is there a sense of how much your average indie developer makes per year? Is it mostly a hobby where you hope to make a few bucks on the side?

Thanks for your input.

Well I do it full time.

It's not going to be easy.

If you need to support a family, and you want to make a go and a full time indie biz, you will either need:
a) a store of money to live on. OR
b) a flow of other income.

Don't expect to spend a weekend to whip out a game and make a living at it.

It takes time, passion, unwaivering vision, skill ( or the will to develop the skills), money, and a few scoops of luck.

That said, folks make real incomes from being indie, but it's never handed to them with little effort, they scraped and clawed their way into that position.

I good 1st step would be to read Steves great articials to get a primer into how to be successful, and make your dreams something other than a hobby.


To have a hobby is great. And that is something entirely attainable with a modest effort. You might in time turn that into a profitable biz.

A downside of the part time or even worse the "spare" time method, is that your drive is somewhat hampered by the safety net. If you have a clear goal, and there is something bout the life you are living now that is draining your soul, you might be better off making a plan to cut your safety lines and MAKING it happen.

I can remember a lot of concerned faces in 1994 thinking I was going to be in trouble if I pursue making games at home as a living. The thing is, I couldn't see what they we're so concerned with. However I didn't have a Plan B, because frankly I wasn't going to let this thing fail.

The average indie doesn't make much. but if you are only going to shoot for being average, I would certainly stick with your day job.

If you have this giddy enthusiasm in your chest about sailing off on your own, and you won't let that dream die, then you have a shot if you and your family are willing to go there.

So the answer is Yes, you can "make it" .

I hope that wasn't too gloom and doom, I only mean to let you know that the sky is the limit, if you don't limit yourself.

I would say it's hard but achievable. Unfortunately I'm still at the finding it hard and haven't achieved anything stage.

If you're going full-time, you need some savings, and support from your close ones. Both may gradually dwindle over time though, so be sure to put everything into it straight away and do not waste a moment.

Come March, I will have been a full-time independent software developer for 5 years. There have been some good years, and there have been some lean years. On the whole, though, it's been a lot of fun.

In addition to the articles Jonas mentioned, I would like to suggest you check out my book, The Indie Game Development Survival Guide (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1584502142/davidrmsoftwa-20). It covers the whole process of independent game development, from initial concept through self-publishing on the Internet. It also includes the results of a survey of indie developers on a variety of topics. For example:

Do you make your primary income from being an indie?

25% Yes
75% No

How much do you make yearly (before taxes) from your indie products?

43% < $1,000
14% $1,000 - $10,000
8% $10,001 - $50,000
6% $50,001 - $100,000
2% $100,000+
27% Undisclosed

(Survey Note: 63 Respondents)

So, yes, it's possible to make it as an indie. It's not always easy, but it's possible.

-David

Thanks all for the replies (and keep them coming)!

It's not so much that I intend to put in your average effort, I'm just figuring fate might take my drive and effort and give me average results. ;)

For the time being, I'm thinking I'll have to do something on a part-time basis (I know, it's lame) and maybe switch over to full time once at least some money comes in (on perhaps a project that isn't too ambitious).

Thanks for the advice. I'm going off to read the links provided now.

It's not lame; it's perfectly sensible. It also means you'll have to work extra hard of course!

I currently have a part time job, do part time game dev, and am a full time dad. Even though I don't depend on game dev for my income (yet!), there is no way in hell I'm not going to finish and publish my game... so I don't think you have to burn your bridges to get sufficient motivation. Also, most successful full-timers will tell you it took several years to get into that position...

Yep, thats a fine plan.

Just be sure if this is something you want, to take anthoneys approch " no way in hell I'm not going to finish"

So start with a project that you can finish in a reasonable amount of the time.

Tip: take what ever you think it's gonna take and multiply that by 3 :)

Pick a project that is small and that fits well with your skills. And make sure there is a NEED for such a game if you want to sell it. There are plenty of nitche games that have few competetors hence less big buck productions.

Do some research before you dive in since you will want to most effectively use the time you do have.

Just wanted to add my $.02

It is possible, but it is not easy. We are doing a pretty good job of making it.. but we are not even close to making what we made when we were working for a big game company.

I think my personal best advice echos the advice given above. It is possible to make a living as an independent developer, but it is not easy, and it is not a sure thing.

Our experience is that it can be done, but don't start shopping for a ferrari.

I am not a full time indie developer but it is a dream i've had for a while now. I have a dull full-time (dull-time? :) ) Helpdesk job but i work 12 hour shifts and often get whole weeks off which i spend programming. This suits me perfectly at the moment as i couldn't possibly live off the sales of my game, even though for me it has been a success. So to echo the other guys, if you can find the time to work on your project but still have some source of income then that's the way to go. I would imagine that you need several successful products (or a major hit) in order to support a family. It's not always just a matter of time and effort either. You need inspiration and a bit of luck or you might find that you've spent 6 months on something that people just aren't interested in.

Good luck!

You need inspiration and a bit of luck or you might find that you've spent 6 months on something that people just aren't interested in.

While I do agree with this statment, there is a lot of chioces you can make to reduce that Luck aspect.

What was it, I think it was some Steven Segal flick where he as a line " Luck favors the perpared mind"

While I doubt that he came up with such a profound statment, it's entirely true. before you code a line, research and find a niche that needs to be filled. If you create a game like "floor Sweeping Sim" make damn sure that there are folks that are gonna want it before you sink in that very scarce comodity of time that you have.

Espeicaly for folks that are starting thier 1st game, I would think it would be best to find a category that allready has SOME games in it that is lacking some way that you have a great way to fix.

Again, spend some time researching. for every hr spent in preperation, if could save you days of execution.

I know for me, I've been wanting to take the dreams of being an indie game developer beyond just something I toy with on weekends. It's very very hard - especially when you have to focus on day-to-day income stuff and only work a few minutes here and there. Here's a few "dreams" of mine:

1) Become a member of an indie game "collective" that consists of many part time folks who I could contribute coding, artwork etc. to.

2) Have some kind of website that would be like a "sourceforge" only catering to indie developers -- wizards for creating design documents, forums for sharing coding tips, etc. As well as things like time trackers, encouraging support from other folks etc. (Part of the reason why this forum is so awesome)

3) A free indie version of RealArcade or GameSpy Arcade -- you publish your game via some XML file like blogs do with RSS and the tool picks it up and acts as a channel for indie gamers.

4) Time to really explore my game ideas

5) Some way to hire a "ghost writer" only for game ideas... I may never get to create the game, but perhaps the idea might be worth creating...



Regarding the "finding a niche" comment -- is there anywhere online where folks can post "wishes" about the kinds of games they would like to play? How do you find out what kinds of games folks really like and want more of?

How do you find out what kinds of games folks really like and want more of?

Well it does depend a bit on what kinda audience you are interested it making games for.

One way to get some leads would be to brose download.com, see if there are some underserved games.... say a game that looks pretty crappy, but gets a boat load of downloads.

Read the constuctive comments ( very few really) and then use that as a stepping stone to Google with.

100's of other ways Im sure, but something that springs to mind.

You really need some sort of metric to use, so something like how many downloads a game gets somewhat tells you how much folks like it. What it doesn't reveal so much is wheter folks would PAY for such a game, or if other factors contributed to it's popularity.

When looking a current popularity over the same amount of time, sort by Downloads/last week. Still tainted, but at least if gives you a recent time chuck to compare with.

Originally posted by Jonas
Well it does depend a bit on what kinda audience you are interested it making games for.

One way to get some leads would be to brose download.com, see if there are some underserved games.... say a game that looks pretty crappy, but gets a boat load of downloads.
...
You really need some sort of metric to use, so something like how many downloads a game gets somewhat tells you how much folks like it. What it doesn't reveal so much is wheter folks would PAY for such a game, or if other factors contributed to it's popularity.


That's one way to go, but I have a fundamental problem with this approach (in its raw form). As I understand, you're recommending to make a game based on the current state of the market. The problem with this is that you can't just keep doing it if you want to have a successful business. What I mean is, you want to build up a customer base which will want certain types of games. This means that you can't just change the kinds of games you make based on the state of the market, because you already have a customer base from your previous game(s). Making a game that may be popular in the mainstream when it's released will alienate your customer base if it's not a game they'd want to play.

Look at Dexterity for instance. They've created a customer base of puzzle gamers, and are catering specifically to them. Though, rumor has it that Steve is going to shift gears now to different kinds of games, but that may be a hard sell to the current customer base. What I'm getting at basically, is that deciding what game to make is going to have much greater implications for you in the future (especially the more successful the game is) than might seem at the moment. That is, if you want to capitalize on your success.

I think one should have a plan as to what sort of games they want to make, not just based on what can be profitable at the moment. Trends come and go, and you won't build a successful business by making games that are popular at the moment (such as puzzle games right now for instance). I think the best way to go is to pick a genre (a niche really) you have passion about, where you can make a better product than what's already available. Then you can entrench yourself as the leader in that niche and build up a nice customer base. Being the leader anywhere (in any niche, even really small ones) is better than trying to capitalize on the current trend (in other words being the #2 or #3 and so on.. if you make a puzzle game right now you might be #10,000). Every successful indie it seems has picked a niche, and they're successful regardless of whether their products overlap with today's trend or not.

Now, I'm certainly not saying one shouldn't do market research. Just saying there should be long term planning involved if you want to build a successful business. Of course I'm just a n00b myself at the moment (at the business side, not development), but this is what I've gathered from hanging around these forums since they opened up. And it's also the strategy I'm planning to employ myself, which is why I'm posting it. Who knows, maybe I'm totally off my rocker. :)

I think it is important that you are passionate about the choice of game you make. I for instance have gone down the soccer game route which is pretty choc-a-block with manager games. As a gamer though i'd always wanted to be the player, not the manager, so i came up with New Star Soccer. You wouldn't believe how many emails i've had that say, "This is the game i've always wanted to play!" It's an angle that as far as i know hasn't been done since an old Spectrum game (Footballer of the Year - Gremlin).

My point is, if i wasn't a football fan, and if i wasn't passionate about football games then i could never have found this niche, or would at least never have followed the whole project through to completion.

Thanks again for the replies.
:)

Originally posted by siread
My point is, if i wasn't a football fan, and if i wasn't passionate about football games then i could never have found this niche, or would at least never have followed the whole project through to completion.

Yeah, I hear you there. I know from personal experience that it's also important to work on something that excites you in order to stay motivated. Starting these games is easy - but man on man finishing them is a different story.

I'm not too worried about coming up with a game that will find her niche. I just didn't want to hear a bunch of stories where people put their heart and soul into a quality shareware title that just didn't make any money.

There seems to be this idea out there that shareware is dead - I just wanted to ask around a bit to see if that's a load of crap. ;)

@felix Sure, I can agree with that. Lets say its a tool that could be helpful, but should be one of many. If you find a game that looks like it's underserved, AND its a genre that you really want to make, thats kinda what you are looking for.

@siread yep, the world is big enough that there is a market for everything. However if you interest was in apendix surgry, the game might not have a LARGE following. I am by no means suggesting that folks not follow thier dreams. That is actuly priortiy #1.

There are a bunch of variables. Popular games are often too crowed to make any noise. Extreme nitche games can be hard to find enough interest.

Sometimes something comes along that nobody knew that they wanted and it blindsides the world. and ya, that takes a leap of faith, but even there, it's often times 5 parts genius, 50 parts research, and 200 parts fizzy lifting drink
:)

Originally posted by Max
Thanks again for the replies.

There seems to be this idea out there that shareware is dead - I just wanted to ask around a bit to see if that's a load of crap. ;)

Yep, that's a load of crap :)

Actually, just thinking about it, a floor-sweeping game could work pretty well! (um, from a game design point of view... marketing it may be another matter)

Max: man on man? :D

Originally posted by Anthony Flack
Actually, just thinking about it, a floor-sweeping game could work pretty well!

Or maybe Window Washing, using a web-cam!

Damn. :(

I personally would stay away from trying to identify a genre and instead just pick and idea and work it until it is fun to play.

A fun game will sell units. Identifying a niche, having great marketing, etc... will only get you so far. A ready made target audience might make a good game sell better, but a really good game will sell.

I personally would concentrate on the game and on doing a good job on the demo upsell to full version.

Also, getting people to try the game is key. One thing we have noticed is something we call the 'duh' factor. Pick a name and make a marketing description that fits the game that will get peopel to check it out. If it is confusing and obtuse, you will lose 90% of your potential buyers without them even playing the demo.

Shareware isnt dead - at least to me. I've paid for about 10 shareware apps this year (er, last 12 months) and probably will pay/register a few more in the next month or so...

I think the hardest part is making it less of a hassle to pay for and activate a full game.

One of the primary motivations for me to start paying for software was identifying with the creators -- perhaps if there was some way for players to connect more with the folks who create the games, they might feel more inclined to pay for registered / activated copies...

I also agree with the previous statements... dont chase after the fad of the moment - it'll be dead by the time you get something out the door. The trick is to find a way to combine what you are passionate about with what you think other folks are passionate about (or will be by the time you can ship something)

Shareware has evolved in recent years. It was always a very idealistic model in its purest form. Idealists usually die poor. So it's changed a little; now we have cunning nag screens, crippled features, limited uses, time expiration, inbuilt-buy screens, unlockable wotsits, etc. etc. etc. My own game is not "shareware" at all by any definition. You download the full game and it lets you play it to your heart's content, and then it mercilessly cuts off just when you're enjoying it (or not, as the case may be) at which point you've got no option but to buy it or ditch it. Contrast with the original "pure" shareware model where you gave it away and expected a tiny trickle of sales from altruists.

I think the only shareware titles I have ever bought were Winzip and Textpad. And then, only because I was rolling in filthy cash at the time and felt generous one night.

<edit>And just thinking back over the past couple of years, I've bought rather a lot of stuff that I'd never have bought if it was just purely shareware. EMS MySQL Manager Pro timed out on me after 30 days. I had to have it; it's brilliant. Strange Adventures in Infinite Space was very cunningly crippled. In fact most of the games I've bought were "crippleware" demos.

Cas :)

I'll add my personal experience.
NOTE: It is based on ONE person making shareware. If you're a TEAM (3-4 ppl or more) that's really a different thing!

I switched in september 03 from fulltime to part-time job, to pursue my dream of living with only indie dev.
Found it really HARD.
I have made a soccer management sim. I've talked a bit about siread, and I understood why he was successful while I didn't.
I got a LOT of email, msg, etc saying that my game has huge potential, the graphics are great, it is fast, etc etc but ppl aren't buying it a lot.
(I've tried to reduce the price now to see if things go better)
Comparing my game to the one of siread, mine has better graphics and lot of things to do, but the siread one has one great thing "the IDEA" :D
So I guess the most important thing is the idea. I'm sure that a game like NSS with graphics like my USM, would rock !

What I've learned now? well I just finished my second game, a puzzle game, currently testing a bit more because I have some problems on geforce cards.

This one took me about one month, which is pretty good for a game.

My goal is to be fulltime by the next 2-3 years. And I think that this is should be the average (ALONE, I repeat) shareware developer working part-time.
If you work full-time, you may need only 1 year, depending on your skills and luck.
I disagree with some members and I think LUCK is really important. Some example in which luck (or bad luck) can really affect your shareware business:
- another company makes about the same game you are betatesting now and beat you on time, releasing it first, and on quality (his game has better graphic/sound/gameplay than yours)
- you get ill or have some RL problems. this may DELAY a lot things
- you get your server hacked by hackers (well this isn't a big damage)
- you release your game in a bad period (ex. when a war or a economic recession is starting)

So well, I'm not going to say to give up, but if you start, think that, if you're lucky, in 2-3 years you MAY be fulltime.