I know it's a crazy idea, but what if your full version was only available via CD? Also, the full version would require the CD to be in the computer to run the game...

This would pretty much stop the casual pirate since the game will have to actually be cracked to use an illegal copy. A lot harder than just distributing serial numbers. Since piracy has come up a lot in our discussions recently, I thought I'd bring up this option.

Here are a couple of pros and cons off the top of my head.

Pros:
- Greater piracy protection, especially against the casual pirate.
- Customers actually have a hard copy of your game. Makes it easier for them to hold on to your game over the years if they get a new computer or have many upgrades. Might also reduce adminstrative work on your end since the customer doesn't have to contact you all the time for the serial number (assuming the serial number is on the CD/CD packaging).
- Higher quality sound. You don't have to worry about trying to keep your download size small. For the full version, you can have the sound quality as good as you want.
- Higher quality art. As long as you still stay within your minimum specs, you can enhance some of the art and textures in your game.
- Customers can let their friends borrow your game. However, since the CD is needed to play the game, the friend will eventually have to return it to the owner (thereby hopefully purchasing the game for himself! :) ).

Cons:
- Depending on the shipping method and their location, the customer has to wait anywhere from 3- 14 days to play your game. This could be a major turn-off.
- Requiring to have the CD in the computer to play the game could also be a major turn-off. People lose CDs all the time.
- You couldn't just release a new version of your game, you'd have to also provide a patch for all previous versions.

That's all I can think of. There are more pros than cons that I saw. However, the few cons are pretty major, especially the one where the customer has to wait for the CD to arrive in order to play the full version....Unless....you made a 14 day expiring full version downloadable. The customer can play that while they wait for the CD to arrive. The 14 day full version would not contain a key or serial number, so it would have to be cracked for a pirate to use it

Just throwing some crazy ideas out there. :) Any thoughts or opinions on this?

Doing as you suggest would likely result in your sales figures plummeting so rapidly that you'll actually be in negative numbers.

Additionally, your costs would go up since CD-based copy protection schemes can be fairly pricey. (On the plus side, since you won't sell many copies, it won't be THAT expensive.) You - or your audience - would also have to pay for shipping and handling.

Don't get me wrong...selling CDs is a good idea - if it's an OPTION available for the person inclined to purchase the game, as opposed to the only method of obtaining the product.

- Roulette

Why not make the "downloadable full version" and the CD version separate products? Add lots of bonus features to the CD version (higher quality sound as you mentioned, better graphics... bonus levels to the game? Maybe even a level editor?) to encourage people to buy the CD version. Kind've like a Lite vs Pro thing. Naturally you would have to charge accordingly, to ensure you make extra earnings for your work. I think you'd also need to make the "downloadable full version" available to anyone who buys the CD anyway, so they can keep playing while they wait. I think then you might be able to make more CD sales from it.

...assuming the serial number is on the CD/CD packaging...If you can, put it on the CD itself. Some people manage to lose serial numbers even if it's a sticker on the CD case itself. Don't ask me how, I have no idea....

Because the CD ends up in a different case?

My instinct tells me that Roulette is right; your sales would go down the toilet. However, why not wait and see? Octopus Motor are currently working on a high-quality, high-profile shareware game, the full version of which will, last I heard, only be available on cd (it's a big game). It should be due out fairly soon I think; they've been working away on it for the last 2-3 years. It would be interesting to see if it works (great news if it does!)

Delivery method is only one of a set of interrelated factors that will affect your sales and profits. I would agree with the previous posters that putting a typical casual game (Super Brixxxout Deluxxxe III - 4.5 MB - 12.95 USD) on a CD is not a good idea. It will be hard to convince the audience that the extra deluxe graphics and audio are worth the hassle and increased expense of the delivery method.

On the other hand, if you are creating a game that is more like a typical mainstream RPG or RTS or Action Shooter, then the CD option becomes more attractive. My game Starshatter will probably end up being almost 200 MB, with a 100 page player manual. The retail price will be at least 25.00 USD. While I could still (perhaps) use Internet downloads to deliver the full version, the game will probably be available only on CD.

One other factor to consider in your decision is shipping cost. Getting a CD in a bubble-pack envelope delivered anywhere in North America is fairly cheap. But exporting that same CD to Finland or Germany or Australia can easily end up costing more than the game itself.

Good luck!

Perhaps if CD delivery becomes more prevailant in future, the way to go would be to do a deal with other developers around the world; have a european-based dev print and deliver the european cds, and a US dev deliver the US cds etc...?

I bought a registered copy of "Fatman", which came on cd...

... so they DO sell..

The full versions of both Dr. Blob's Organism and Strange Adventures in Inner Space (from Digital Eel (http://www.digital-eel.com)) are (apparently) only available on CDROM (though the demos of each are available via download).

Yeah, we're doing CD-only, as - like milo's Starshatter - TCFH's way too big to be downloadable (it may very well end up being 2 CDs), and I want to provide a printed manual. After all, mail-order worked fine for DOOM.

Waah! MOM! Anthony called me shareware! :)

Oops, I mean independent ;)

I'm really hoping it works out, in cases where the game is good enough to "deserve" it... I'd love to fill up a cd with content myself, but at the moment I'm sticking to the <10Mb download conventional wisdom. Which is actually more work in a lot of ways, 'cause I still want it to look like a cd game. Custom music tracker software, handcoded intro movie, here I come...

Bleah --- my games already over 10 megs zipped, and it's still quite a bit of content shy of being complete. I am gonna have to work just to keep it under 15 megs.

Originally posted by Coyote
Bleah --- my games already over 10 megs zipped, and it's still quite a bit of content shy of being complete. I am gonna have to work just to keep it under 15 megs.
If it makes you feel any better, Hold the Line, the major B5 mod for Starshatter, is already over 250 MB. That's just the mod; it doesn't include the game itself.

The problem I see with doing a CD only is all about overhead.

If you want to generate a big profit you can't use on-demand CDs. This leaves you buying CDs first, which means you need an accurate idea of how many sales you will have.

I can get a box, CD, 8 page insert (all color) with shipping for about 4.50 each for 1000. Its quite a bit cheaper if you take the box out and make it jewl-case or DVD-style digipack... but anyway the point is unless you have 4,500 dollars on hand its not an option. (Okay so if you just had a Jewl Case you mailed it'd be quite a bit cheaper, probably half the price)

You can not, or should not, afford to pay 9.00 per CD via swiftCD or the like if this is your primary distribution source.

As long as the actual demo is availible via download I have not seen any numbers that inidicate online transactions are superior to box sales.

Joseph Lieberman

I don't see how going CD-only drastically reduces sales as bad as some of you say.

Granted going CD-only with a Puzzler is probably not the best idea. But if you're doing a fairly in-depth platformer, action/adventure, or strategy game, going CD-only is not necessarily a horrendous idea. Especially if the CD version has proper incentives such as higher quality sound/graphics. I would even include goodies such as wallpaper, screen savers, and even concept art.

Plus a lot of people like having a hard-copy of a game with a nice box and instructions if possible. That's a selling point in itself.

Like I said earlier, the only downside for the customer that I can think of is that they have wait for the CD to arrive to play the full version. But it's not like this has never been done before; the whole shareware industry up until the past 6-7 years mostly operated by people sending in mail orders. So I think it's a little short-sighted to say your sales will plummet drastically simply by going CD-only.

Just like with other deliverly methods, if you go CD-only you have to provide the proper incentives and constantly modify and improve your sales process. With certain games, I think going CD-only is just as viable as being available only by download. If people feel they're getting a lot with the full CD version, then they'll tolerate the ship time. Heck, hundreds of thousands did with Doom...

Personally, I might try giving them access to a couple of bonus levels while they wait for the full version to arrive. I'm still tossing up ideas. But I like the idea of going CD-only because I can make the game closer to how I really want it and I can provide fans of my game with a hard copy and box to keep on their book/CD shelf for many years. I think you'll build a more loyal fanbase if you can give them something tangible.

The problem I see with doing a CD only is all about overhead.



Exactly. Overhead and finding the right pricing is the biggest challenge.



I can get a box, CD, 8 page insert (all color) with shipping for about 4.50 each for 1000. Its quite a bit cheaper if you take the box out and make it jewl-case or DVD-style digipack... but anyway the point is unless you have 4,500 dollars on hand its not an option. (Okay so if you just had a Jewl Case you mailed it'd be quite a bit cheaper, probably half the price)

That's true if you're going with stamped CDs. However if you opt for high quality CD-Rs, then you won't need to spend that much money upfront and you can go by demand bit more.

I've seen places where they'll do a 300 two-color silkscreened CD-R for around $1.50. That'll come to about $450- 500. Then you can order 100- 200 DVD boxes and colored inserts. That will bring you to about per CD package $2.50 - $4.00 (shipping not included) depending on the size of the manual.

So you could actually get started with just about $1,000. And you don't have too much inventory. I'm pretty sure most people here would be confident enough in selling 300 copies in at least a 6-12 month period. And if your sales ends up doing pretty good, then you can always order in higher volume possibly with stamped CDs.

I'd probably prefer to receive silk-screened CD-Rs and then burn them myself. That way I'm always giving my customer the latest version. You don't want to release a new version, but still be stuck selling 500-700 CD-Rom copies of the older version, which has bugs you'd rather not see circulate anymore.

Well, in our case DCS concentrates only on producing single A quality titles, so if we expected to sell only 500 copies we wouldnt bother producing the game. (Its not that single A titles sell more, its that the production time and cost wouldn't be worth it if we didn't sell over 1k)

So that is how I tend to think. If we are going to have a CD we are going to have a CD that looks and is as professional as it can be. This means professionally pressed CDs, because we don't have time to burn 1000 CDs, even if you spread that time out over a year. We would, and you may not, opt for boxes. Despite the higher cost a boxed version has a tactile pull to purchase (meaning people are drawn to buy it) and it also stands out when giving demos to reviewers and media agencies (and future publishers). Maybe best of all: You get to have a box to show your kids! (Direct quote from our CEO)

The company we would use has a variety of types you could use, a CD Mailer (To save you time/hassle) would only be 1.82 each. (The nice benefit of you don't have to spend money on packing material would make me reccomend something like that.)

So, you could get your 300 CDs and burn them yourself for a grand, or you could get 1000 CDs, burned, professioanlly produced and sent in mailer packs for 820 more dollars and do virtually no work. Its a 5 color silkscreen too with a test disc and disc film and I believe a barcode. Personally I would spend the extra cash just to not have the hassle and to boost my revenue per sale that much higher. (3.33 vs. 1.82, before you include the shipping material on that 3.33 and the cost of your time and the fact its lower quality)

If anyone wants more information on this I would be happy to give it via PM, I think I hijacked this thread's intent a little, lol.

Joseph Lieberman

I definitely agree with just about all your points above. That's why I'm aiming for going with boxed (DVD style) CD version with color manual. There are so many advantages going with a hard copy from a customer to marketing aspect.

I'd love to hear more information about this (ie. please PM me! :) )

Yeah, I'd like to hear more about your CD replication company as well. Do they do paper manuals as well? Will they assemble and drop-ship the finished box direct to your customers?

I don't think you have hijacked the thread at all. The decision to ship CDs is driven by the amount of cost and hassle versus the benefits. Knowing exactly what the cost and hassle will be can only help someone to make the decision.

I'm starting to think that shipping and handling could be the biggest hassle of all. If you only sell a few hundred units a year, then shipping is probably pretty managable. You bring a few boxes to Mailboxes Etc. every Saturday morning and you are done. But if you are planning to move 1000 or 5000 copies in a year, that's up to one hundred boxes a week that you have to lug around.

http://www.cd-duplication-replication-manufacturing.com/

Is the company. We have not purchased from them yet, but their service before the sale thus far has been excellent. If you deal with them be sure to say Joseph Lieberman from DragonClaw Studio referred you. I dont think you will get a discount from saying it, but maybe I could... have a heart!

They don't drop ship, they may be able to do manuals, but manuals are VERY expensive. Most modern games avoid manuals because the cost cuts into the profit margin (added shipping weight + cost to print + cost to fulfill and on the larger scale + cost to wharehouse). You will have to ask them about the manuals.

This company would assemble and ship the boxes to you though, and its up to you to get them to the customer.

I am currently researching companies to handle the backend. So far the best company I have found you are looking at paying them about 70 dollars a month and 3.33-3.75 per sale. Im not certain that price is acceptable to me. (If you sell the boxed version for 25 dollars thats talking 13.3% of your profit + the 70 dollars a month)

In short, if you move a decent number per month you are staring at 400 dollars a month to have someone else handle fulfillment. Is that worth the 4800 dollars a year? Maybe... I will keep looking for alternative companies to handle it and let you know if I come up with any.

An interesting option is reverse calculation of cost for the items. Lets say you sell normally for 20 dollars online. Well if it costs you 3.50 to get the product out the door you can sell the box version for 24.00 + shipping (keeping in mind that you still have the CC company to pay, and if you are paying 10%, the 4.00 price hike means you are paying 40 cents more in CC processing, hence why its 24 and not 23.50). Then add in the cost of the production, say 2.00/unit. You are up to 26.00 (PLUS SHIPPING). 3.50 goes to your backend, 2.00 goes to the MFG, 2.60 goes to the CC processing company. You make 18 dollars, the same as if you had an electronic sale for 20 with 10% CC fee... actually you make 10 cents less, but who cares.

By passing along the cost to the consumer you maintain your profit margin. Of course, this may result in losing sales due to price. The other option is eating the cost of back end work and shipping... or some combination.

Lets do a little breakeven analysis... (Can you believe I do this stuff all day for work and take the time to do it on a forum... marketing is an art.)

So you save 4.00 per transaction by doing the work yourself. The cost to produce the CDs is $2000. In order to 'break even' in this game you are making $18 per sale with using a backend. At 112 sales you turn a profit for the first time. By mailing them yourself you turn a profit at 90 sales. The long run difference if you sell all 1000 copies is 4,000 dollars.

Now you have run into two dillemas. One: Your price is now 26+shipping. Say shipping is 3.00 on average... is your game worth 29.00? Two: If you go with a backend distributor, what advantage do you have over ESD? You make the same amount, will the extra sales from having a physical product EXCEED the 2,000 dollar overhead PLUS the loss of sales due to higher price? Maybe... it depends on your product.

If you distribute it yourself you are netting 4.00 per sale more than the ESD model. So now we can give a numeric value to the % decrease that is tolerable due to using CD only. That % is approximately 18%. What this means is:

In this scenario if going with CD only is your choice and you are distributing it yourself as long as you lose no more than 18% of the sales you normally would have had using ESD, you will turn a higher profit with CDs.

Since many parts of this equasion are adjustable, each scenario and each game will be different. You can charge a higher price, a lower price, you can try to factor in what affect using CDs will be...

Sky's the limit boys...

My conclusion: If you can't find a cost effective way to have someone else ship your game then it isn't worth using MFG CDs ONLY unless you are willing to ship them yourself.

Thoughts?

Joseph Lieberman

Has anyone looked at using DVD clamshells?

I received Morrowind in a DVD clamshell that contained the two CDs, a manual, and a folded up map.

I thought this was a really slick way to package...it looks professional, but it's lightweight and doesn't take up much space. Plus, you don't have to pay for both a box and a jewel case. Best of all, it doesn't need any additional packing materials for mailing...you could put an address label on it and mail it! Quicken recently sent out their 2003 updates this way.

I've seen clamshells available for as little as 25 cents each in small quantities at Fry's and the like. You'd have to print cds and manuals, and hand assembly, unless you can find a duplicator who will print all of these and assemble for you.

The link I gave at the top there has the DVD shells.

They charge 2.00 each (1000 min) for that and a 1 page color insert and go as high as 3.50 for a 12 page full color insert (basically a small full color manual).

The "top notch" ways to distribute are
#1) Full box (Because of tradition/eyecatch)
#2) DVD Box (Small, sleek, and cheap)
#3) Digipack (More expensive than DVD Boxes, but could be suited for some things and can be sealed)
#4) Jewlcase (For that 9.99 special feel)
#5) Mailer (Easiest way to mail things)

Terin

I'm looking to ship and possibly assemble the CD packages myself. That will definitely save some costs there. My wife is essentially the secretary, so she doesn't mind packing and dropping off CDs. :)

The big thing for me is shipping costs and packaging. I don't know what's the best method. UPS Ground isn't too bad for US residents, but it's not an option for International customers. I'm probably going to pass the cost onto the customer like most online retailers, but I still don't want it to be excessive.

In general, people are used to paying for shipping for online products. Almost all sellers on Ebay require auction winners to pay for shipping. Clothing stores like Victorias Secret make you pay for shipping. I know, I ordered several items for my wife this Christmas. :D I balked a bit at the shipping costs, but I still made the purchases.

Also, online retailers like Amazon and EBgames that do offer free shipping, have quite a few restrictions on it. With Amazon, your order has to be over $20 and it could take 10 - 14 days for your order to arrive (in the US). Same deal with EBgames, except there's no minimum order. Here's EB's shipping rate card: https://ebgames.com/ebx/help/shippingChart.asp#uschart1

Both Amazon and EBgames do really well, so I don't think shipping costs scare away too many people as long as it's reasonable. Also, it may help to have several shipping options.

So if your game has a sticker price of $24.99, I think you'll be okay if a $6-7 charge is added on the checkout page. Especially if your packaging looks appealing and you offer enough incentives, people will look forward to it arriving and won't mind paying a little extra.

I'm still probbing a bunch of online retailers to see how they handle shipping for their products.

Call your local post office and ask for a rate sheet. USPS is the cheapest way to send most light packages (I belive a DVD shipping price is only going to be 1.42 or so in the USA, plus packing material... at most 2.00).

You can get a similar sheet from FedEx for international shipping.

Joseph Lieberman

During Digby's Donuts exclusive period on RealArcade, Real allowed us to promote and sell a CD-ROM only version of the game (i.e., no downloadable demo)

We used a DVD jewel case with CDs we burned and labeled ourselves. We used USPS and would usually put on $2.00 just to be safe.

Our materials (with estimated prices) included:

DVD movie-style jewel case - 25 cents
CD-R - 25 cents
1200 DPI DVD Cover pintout from Kinko's - 25 cents
CD-R label - 25 cents

Prices are for quantities of 100...just do a search to find lot's of options. Also, don't bother using fancy/glossy paper for the DVD cases...we did this at first (at $1 per page) but when you slip them under the celophane, regular paper looks the same as the expensive stuff--they both look glossy and nice.

So, our per unit cost was relatively low...even with $2.00 for shipping. We charged $5.95 for S&H inside the U.S.

We didn't sell a ton (we couldn't provide the download version until after our exclusive expired) but having a nice looking package has been useful for some other deals we're working on.

Each sale was a bit of a pain because we had to label a package, etc. etc. ...and we're used to basically doing nothing with the downloadable versions. :)

Hope this info is helpful...
-Scorpio

Thanks Scorpio, that was very useful! :)

So inside the US, shipping with the DVD case was just $2.00? That's not bad. Was that first class? What was typically the deliverly time?

Heh, yeah that must have been tough selling a CD-only version without a downloadable demo!

We didn't sell a ton (we couldn't provide the download version until after our exclusive expired) but having a nice looking package has been useful for some other deals we're working on.


That's good to hear. Terin and I alluded to this earlier, about how having a nice CD package opens up other opportunities you wouldn't normally get with a downloadable. I'm glad to hear it holds true. :)

Originally posted by Chris_Evans
So inside the US, shipping with the DVD case was just $2.00? That's not bad. Was that first class? What was typically the deliverly time?

Yeah, shipping was actually weighed and priced by the post-office at $1.67...but then one came back to use needing $1.85...so I just started slapping on two $1 stamps. :)

I believe delivery time was in the 2-5 day range and this was just regular mail. I figured we'd switch to something better if we ever got a complaint...but we never did.

Glad this info was helpful. Good luck,
-Scorpio