How to build it? - Just create the game archive with your exclusive game titles.
How to make it powerful? - Just unite your efforts.

It was said amount of times. So, I didn't get at all why are you crying about the D.com, ROne, BFish politics if you all help them to grow and become independent from you by all possible ways.

Independent doesn't mean doing things alone...

I was discussing this options with some of you privately. I suppose now it's the time to give some publicity to these discussions. So, it would be great to hear your opinion...

Thanks,

.. If you can build me a site with that much traffic, I'll happily submit to it. :) But considering the number of sites that have tried to create their own download.com and how little traffic we get from them...

I can build for you papillon?..
I can't papillon. WE can... together...

Submit?.. What and where are you going to submit papillon? - The idea was to unite efforts and make it togather. Not to create D.com for you by efforts of another guys.

Exclusivity... No one site provides exclusive titles from several developers - no any reason to visit them all for anybody. That's why everybody goes to D.com. To download titles and to upload them as well :)

Originally posted by WildSnake
How to build it? - Just create the game archive with your exclusive game titles.
How to make it powerful? - Just unite your efforts.

It was said amount of times. So, I didn't get at all why are you crying about the D.com, ROne, BFish politics if you all help them to grow and become independent from you by all possible ways.

Independent doesn't mean doing things alone...

I was discussing this options with some of you privately. I suppose now it's the time to give some publicity to these discussions. So, it would be great to hear your opinion...

Thanks,

I have been reading this invaluable forum daily for well over a year and finally thought I'd sign up due to this thread.

Wild Snake - this idea is so simple yet so powerful and I think it is exactly what is needed. A download.com type site with indie only titles. Someone should get this going not only to help out all of the indies but also because it is a great business idea.

I have to think that this had already been done (probably many times) but the fact that none of us seem to know about shows that it hasn't been done right.

A few keys to success (IMHO)

1) It needs to have paid listings - this site would need to be profitable in order to ensure that it survives. It could also have free listings but it needs to generate revenue through paid advertising.

2) Maybe the site could add merchant type functionality to gives indies an easy way to sell their product without having to use paypal or accept creditcards themselves. Another way to generate revenue.

3) A clear definition of indie is required otherwise the site will lose its value.

4) I would think that if the person / people running the site also had their own games that this would be a huge conflict of interest and potentially make the site lose all credibility. I think that whoever takes this on needs to be out of the indie game business.

5) Include apps other than games - there are lots of indie business tools which would bring different types of people to the site and increase exposure.

6) Include indie web based games - I see this segment gaining a lot of ground as servers and hosting become cheaper and the tools become more and more powerful.

7) Create some kind of referral system to get the word out. Whoever takes this on needs to have a strong business sense and great marketing ability.

Anyone have other ideas or comments on these ones?

RG

Thanks a lot for your opinion Roygon,

Unfortunately I can't agree with your point of view on idea in common. You are just trying to create another download.com by your points.

My idea backwards is to unite all game developers and make their own place to attract their customers. If everybody from community will make just very small step to each other this could help to everybody significantly.

I have a slogan for the campaign guys: Even if you like to stay indie so much you can't build your own World Wide Web

How do you like it?... :D

Hi Wild Snake,

I understand your point but the problem I see with a site run by the developers is that I don't see it lasting very long or working well because there are too many chefs in the kitchen but I could be wrong :)

The problem with download.com is that there is too much crap! As other people have pointed out, patches and add-ons for commercial games make up the first 6 pages! By having a site totally geared towards indie releases (not just games - or maybe just games, who knows...) you avoid that and with some clever marketing it could become The Place To Go when looking for unique and interesting games or applications.

I personally can't stand most of the games that are coming out - they either make me dizzy or require too much of a time investment which is one of the reasons why the last 5 or 6 games I have bought have been indies.

Anyways, I wish you good luck on setting up the community that you have in mind.

RG

Originally posted by WildSnake

I have a slogan for the campaign guys: Even if you like to stay indie so much you can't build your own World Wide Web

How do you like it?... :D [/B]

.. unfortunately, I can't *understand* it enough to like or dislike it. :) Sorry, I get confused by your English, I'm not quite sure what you're saying.

How is your idea different from all the other game download sites?

How is your idea different from gametunnel/diygames?

What does that slogan mean?

You probably have a lot more idea than I can figure out from what you've said. I just have trouble understanding you. :)

Papillon,

Thanks for those links (gametunnel and diygames). That is what I was getting at. I'm glad to see that there are already sites like this in action to help the indie community.

Are these sites really well known outside the indie community? Have people had good results with them?

Thanks,

RG

Please pardon me my poor English papilion.

Anyway, let we just wait for opinion of another influencing guys in community.

REM: I'm not either going to setup or push this type of collaboration by my own. Why? - The answer is very simple - we have no enought power yet. :) I just share by idea and we are open to collaborate on it.

PS D.com - have no exclusive titles, file archives - have no power and exclusive titles, all another - have no power, exclusive titles and visitors.

Thanks a lot for your feedback guys.

It sounds like to me you want to create a co-op. Kind of like a bunch of farmers getting together and starting a grain elevator company to store and sell the corn they grow.

How it works: Co-op charges a fee for use. This fee is an educated guess on how much the co-op needs to meet costs, and future capital investments. Then at the end of the year it does its books and refunds the “extra” profit to everyone based on how much they paid. For example: Ten developers signed up and paid $5000 each a year, in exchange they get a web host, links into the front “mall” area, credit card processing, and maybe even some user support. (Depends on the charter of the co-op I suppose, there could be different levels of service too.) After a year the co-op does its books and determines that after costs, it has spent $40,000, and used up $5000 in capital assets, which it’ll have to replace down the road. That means an “extra” profit of $5000 or 10%. So each developer gets $500 back (10% of the initial $5000.)

A great example of this is USAA. USAA is a co-op of Military Officers (and some enlisted) and their dependents that provides auto insurance, home insurance, banking, loans, the list goes on and on. At the end of every year they cut a check to every member for the “extra” profit. On top of that the company has an incredible reputation for service, and a very loyal group of members (I know because I am one and there is no company that I trust more.)

A rough way of looking at it is that a co-op is a company whose “shareholders” are its users. You “buy” stock by becoming a user. Another example I know of is REI an outdoors equipment retailer.

I can see how indie’s could save themselves some money, and effort by pooling hosting, credit card processing, and marketing resources into one place. I image that the site would run a few “mall” front pages as a sort of game portal, but then each indie would maintain their own web pages (or store) inside the “mall.” Using the resources provided by the co-op. The co-op would charge the developers a fee for the services, but not a cut of the sales.

I see four crucial factors that would determine the success of the endeavor.

1. You’d need high quality directors to oversee the co-op that had a great reputation with the indie community.
2. The economy of scale must put the co-op on an almost even footing with for-profit providers of web hosting, credit card processing etc.
3. Flexibility with quality control. A big concern for each individual will be the flexibility to present their product the way they envision, but they’ll want to keep dilapidated sites out. This would be a tricky area.
4. Giving everyone equal access to the traffic. If you have 400 developers it is going to be hard to give each equal marketing and “mall” front space.

If such a site existed how many out there would consider using it instead of build there own site from scratch?

It's not the site. it's the traffic that comes to it.

You don't get traffic simply by building a good site. You will be able to build a better download.com by uniting indie developers, but it doesn't mean the site it going to see a ton of traffic.

See, Dexterity and retro64, and other game sites, well they have traffic. Not because they co-oped, or becuase they tried to be like download.com. No, it is because they worked hard at bringing people to their site. Getting traffic. Even if you start a download.com site, you're going to need to get traffic. And if you can't get satifactory traffic to your own site, then why would you expect to be able to do this for a new site with a bunch of indies?

Simply put, getting a successful site requires a change in tactics. Once you understand those tactics, you won't need to build a download.com style site, becuase you'll apply it to your own and you'll have your own successful site instead.

In a way though I think BigFish games has done exactly what you've suggested. They've built a site, they are pretty easy going on signing up new games, and they market the hell out of it to get traffic. You could do the same thing but apply it to your own site.

Just my 2 cents

~Hanford

It can definitely take a while to build traffic if you want to do so without spending a ton of money on marketing. Dexterity.com has been online since 1995, so that's a lot of years to build up a lot of links. Traffic becomes an asset in its own right then, since once you have a regular flow of eyeballs, you can put things in front of them to buy, and you'll generate sales.

The strategy that has worked well for me over the years is to think in terms of building assets that can generate income instead of trying to generate income directly from my time. Things like a newsletter list, a customer database, a web site with traffic, a press list, and even personal relationships are all assets that keep paying off over and over. Most of the money Dexterity generates comes from the repeated use of these assets.

It seems sad to say this, but I think the games themselves are becoming more and more commoditized in the indie arena, mainly due to increased competition. To the typical customer, there isn't much difference between one decent game and another. I think a lot of customers probably regard indie games as something akin to "disposable entertainment." Sure there are exceptions, but I think individual games themselves aren't as valuable an asset as some would think. I'd probably rather have a very popular web site than a very popular game if I had to choose one asset over another.

My main idea with this theread was exactly not to give the final decision but open the discussion. Great to see how the discussion becomes more concrete and detailed.

Thanks for your posts MrPhil, Hanford and Steve.

Steve, you are describing the way of building your success which became de-facto standard for every independent developer on current stage. Mostly because they are studying this business on yours and similar articles. Look on opinions of Hanford and pappilons.
But they will loose. Why? Right because they weren't starting at 1995.

It would be hard to achieve something appropriate in this direction while we continue to think in categories "submit my files" and "I should build my trafic alone".

The net to catch you is built and ready. D.com, Real, Big Fish, Dexterity (pardon Steve!) - they are waiting for your fresh blood. What ever collaboration you do with them you just help them to be more powerful and really independent from your concrete products and your efforts.

When you submit the product on D.com (subscribe the agreement with BigFish or RealOne) and me do the same we already collaborate guys. But we collaborate to bring success to them. That's the point!
And decision? - Very simple. Just find the way to exclude D.com from this our collaboration with you...

I ask you continue to share by your opinions gentlemen!

Thank you,