As many of you know, I've been a member of the Association of Shareware Professionals (http://www.asp-shareware.org) since 1996 and also served a couple years as its VP and then its President. I've probably convinced dozens of indies to join the ASP over the years, and so far no one yet has told me they regret joining.

I think pretty much anyone involved in indie development should join the ASP. But I also know that a lot of people don't really understand what the ASP will do for them. The ASP is not a perfect organization, but I think it's well worth $100/year, and I still keep renewing year after year.

So why do I think it's worthwhile for indies to join the ASP? I guess the main thing would be the quality of information you gain access to. As good as I like to think these newgroups are, they're free and they're public, while the ASP newsgroups are members-only and private. As it turns out, this is a really significant difference.

Because every ASP member has to pay to gain access to the private newsgroups, there's an extremely high signal-to-noise ratio for people who are serious about building their businesses. People ask really good questions and get really good answers. And people will discuss topics in the ASP that they'll never discuss in a public forum, including specific sales figures, legal issues, etc. It may sound odd for me to say this as the adminstrator of these forums, but if I had to choose between subscribing to the ASP forums and these indie forums, I have to go with the ASP.

One thing that's so valuable about the ASP forums is the experience of the members. You can get advice from people who were making a living from shareware for more than a decade. Whereas most members of this forum seem to be fairly young and inexperienced in terms of running a business, I'd guess the average age of ASP members is around 35-40, and a lot of members have been involved in the software industry since before I was even born. Having access to so much experience is extremely valuable to me. There are questions I post in the ASP newsgroups instead of here in these forums because I know I'll get higher quality answers.

The ASP has multiple discussion forums (I think it's over 10 different ones now -- I don't subscribe to all of them), each geared towards a specific area. For example, there's a technical forum where I recently asked some nitpicking hardware questions (I'm building a new PC from scratch this weekend) and got some expert answers. When you need expert geek advice on something that's outside your expertise (for me that's hardware), there's always someone geekier than you who knows the answer.

Another advantage is that the ASP gives you a broader perspective. I've gotten many ideas from ASP members who sell business software, utilities, educational software, financial software, etc. When you only chat with other game developers, there's a tendency to be too myopic.

Honestly I think the "Association of Shareware Professionals" isn't an accurate description of the organization, and that may turn away some would-be members who don't like the term "shareware." A title like "Association of Independent Software Developers" may be more accurate. People discuss non-shareware ways to run a software business all the time.

Some key industry members are also ASP members, including CNET download.com and Tucows.com and many registration services, and most are active participants in the forums. ASP members often get access to information about changes in these services long before the general public. Plus there is a feedback channel open there -- these services have many ASP members as customers and in my experience tend to give better service to ASP members.

What the ASP has done for me over the years is provided me with an extremely valuable education. There are many ASP members who are absolutely brilliant IMHO, and I've learned so much from them. There's no way Dexterity would be doing so well if I never joined the ASP -- absolutely no way. There would have been too much for me to learn on my own. In early 1999 dexterity.com was getting only 15 visitors and 60 page views per day. Thanks to the ASP, within six months the site was generating enough traffic to bring in $2500/month. Six months to go from virtually nothing to making enough to support myself... Everything I did during that time was by applying what I learned from other ASP members. They taught me how to create good registration incentives, how to write a press release, how and where to get distribution, how to place well in search engines, and so on. And despite the number of articles I've written, a lot of this basic how-to information is stuff I've never written about in any article. The only place I see certain info is in the ASP newsgroups; some techniques are just never discussed outside the ASP to my knowledge.

The $100 annual dues tends to keep out people who aren't serious about running a software business, so the newsgroups have a lot more people that are making a living selling their own software as opposed to doubters who don't think it's possible (which you still see on public forums a lot). There are ASP members who only post in the ASP newsgroups and nowhere else, so if you aren't a member, you'll most likely never hear about their successes.

I really want to encourage forum members who are serious about building their own software business to join the ASP. So I'll throw in a little extra bonus for you. If you join the ASP by the end of the month (April 30), send me a PM with your membership number and email address, and I'll send you a free copy of the full version of Dweep Gold. I know a single free game isn't a big deal, so if any fellow ASP members want to sweeten the deal by offering freebies of their own too, feel free to post here. But even without any extra freebies, ASP membership is well worth $100/year.

That reminds me -- another benefit of the ASP is that members often give members free software. I've gotten free licensed copies of WinZIP, FTP Voyager, and many other programs just by being a member.

Here's the link to join the ASP if you're interested, and if you do join because of this post, please let the people in the ASP know.
http://www.asp-shareware.org/join/join.asp

And here's a page of testimonials from other ASP members who found their membership valuable:
http://www.asp-shareware.org/join/testimonials.asp

There are many more benefits to the ASP... more than I can list, but most can be found on the ASP's web site (http://www.asp-shareware.org).

If you have questions about the ASP, feel free to post your questions here too.

Just wanted to let you know that I signed up. I was planning to once I finished my business plan, but after reading your post I can't see any reason to wait. I'll send you a PM once I receive my membership number and I will be certain to let the ASP know that your post helped to "seal the deal".

Cheers!

Jeff

EDIT: Just wanted to mention that I let Richard Holler know that I had joined after seeing a post on the Dexterity forums by Steve Pavlina.

I joined earlier this year, (in part due to Mr. Pavlina's comments on the organization), and so far think it's worth the meager $100/year fee. I'm currently lurking, but I figure I'll poke my head out and ask some questions when I'm more familiar with the newsgroups' workings.

One thing I'd love to see would be a "best-of" -- there must be tons of great stuff I'm missing, as I can only see back to about February, 2004. (Some of the material, such as Al Harberg's marketing newsletter archive (http://www.dpdirectory.com/3newsltr.htm) is available online.)

I joined the ASP earlier this year, and it's worth the money. So far I've made at least half the money back through free licenced copies (eg FTP Voyager is really good). They also helped me get a non-paying customer to pay up - how to word the letter, who to address it to, etc etc. They paid within a few hours, and the ASP helped me feel more confident about the process. The newsgroups are full of innovative marketing ideas that can really help you. It's like having realtime access to a group of software business experts.

Their monthly newsletter is better than I expected. Imagine the Dexterity Articles, with less of a self-development emphasis, more on marketing and software dev. Mix it in with industry news, and that's the kind of articles you'll see.

It's not all sweetness and light though. I've seen pro-spamming discussions in the newsgroups, and some developers with a disregard for customer privacy. The ASP has also run advertisements for companies who later turned out to develop spyware. But not everyone in the ASP shares these views, and they're not official ASP views either. Just remember to question what you read, don't follow everything blindly. Not only will you exercise your independent thinking muscles, you'll also learn a lot that can help your business.

PS Hey MiceHead, visit your private ASP webpage. There's a newsgroup search engine that goes back some years, it's really helpful.

I think some ASP members have saved ZIP archives of previous newsgroup postings going back several years. You may try posting a message in the asp.members group to see if anyone can post a link to share it. However, as often as the same questions keep coming up, the answers often change over time.

In the members-only section of the ASP web site, there's also an archive of the ASP newsletter (ASPects) which goes all the way back to 1988.

One thing I should stress is that when you join the ASP, get active in the newsgroups right away. A mistake I made was that I joined in 1996 but never even logged into the newsgroups until 1999. Before then all I did was read the newsletter and the resources on the web site, which even by themselves I thought was still worth the $100/year. But really the newsgroups are the core of the ASP's value, and I wish I had gotten to them sooner. It's a good idea just to make a simple intro post with a link to your site, since then other members can begin getting to know you.

ASP members are an outstanding resource for networking if you put in the effort (i.e. do your best to help fellow members, and you'll find that assistance returned in kind). New opportunities often come to me via my network of ASP friends, just as I try to help fellow ASP members when I run into an opportunity that might help someone in the group. In the last 12 months alone, I can directly attribute at least $10,000 of extra income to an opportunity that I was offered because of my decision to join the ASP. Many of the best opportunities that have come my way can be traced back to being an active member -- if I added up the financial benefits alone, it would easily be six figures. If I wasn't an ASP member, I would have missed out on many key opportunities, since the people who brought them to me would never have known who I was.

So the reason I so enthusiastically encourage other indies to join the ASP is that the benefits are both tangible and substantial. You'll get out of your membership what you put into it. So once you join, take advantage of all the great resources and put them to use right away.

Well, I took the plunge. :) I'm now just awaiting my membership info.

I hate to post "me too"s, but here goes: "me too" :-). Awaiting approval.

- elias

I joined last year but I'm afraid I haven't renewed my subscription (this time around). Here's the unwritten caveat: you'll only get out of the ASP what you're prepared to put in to using it, and I never had the time to get to grips with it.

Cas :)

Hi Steve, I've heard that the ASP offers a way to take action against crack sites, but I haven't found such thing on the list of the.. features.

Does this opportunity exists really or I remember the wrong? And what what to do you do usually in this case? Just for know.. we'll anyway join the association after the first commercial game and the new site are finished. :p

Thank you!!

Interesting question really to mr. Pavlina.

What percentage of ASP members don't renew their subscribtion for the second year?

Thanks,

Wildsnake, i'm in the % who didn't renew their subscription...


pat.

Thanks pat,

But I hardly believe I'd be able to count everybody. I suppose Steve should have very concrete digits on that...

Originally posted by Snakesoft
Hi Steve, I've heard that the ASP offers a way to take action against crack sites, but I haven't found such thing on the list of the.. features.

Does this opportunity exists really or I remember the wrong? And what what to do you do usually in this case? Just for know.. we'll anyway join the association after the first commercial game and the new site are finished. :p

Thank you!!

Yes, it exists, and I've used it myself. In the members-only section of the web site, there's a simple form to report crack sites. I'm not exactly sure what happens when you report a crack site though because I was never involved in that project directly, but I do know that many reported sites have been shut down. The ASP has a relationship with the SIIA in this area.

Originally posted by WildSnake
Interesting question really to mr. Pavlina.

What percentage of ASP members don't renew their subscribtion for the second year?

Thanks,

I don't know the current figures, but while I was President I think the annual renewal rate was somewhere around 80%, with most of the non-renewers only being members for a year or two. I recall that one year we conducted an exit poll of members who didn't renew, and the most common reason given for nonrenewal was that those members were simply leaving the "industry." I.e. someone dabbled in shareware marketing as a hobby and then decided to move on to something else. Also, some people join the ASP with the intention of starting their own businesses, but then they never really follow through, so after a year or two they leave. I suppose this is really no different than what any other trade org experiences. I joined the IGDA for a couple years, but when I realized that it wasn't doing anything for me, I stopped renewing.

For at least the past five years, I think ASP membership has been growing steadily year after year. I know it has well over 1000 members at present.... probably closer to 1500.

Originally posted by princec
I joined last year but I'm afraid I haven't renewed my subscription (this time around). Here's the unwritten caveat: you'll only get out of the ASP what you're prepared to put in to using it, and I never had the time to get to grips with it.


This is very true. You definitely get out of it what you put into it. While I was ASP President several years ago, one of the best projects I undertook was to establish the ASP Welcoming Committee, which is still running today. So when you first join, this committee assigns someone to send you an email to help initiate you and answer any questions you may have, especially encouraging you to become active in the newsgroups. Consequently, participating in the ASP newsgroups has grown by leaps and bounds over the past few years, and more people are taking advantage of the ASP's resources than ever before.

That reminds me -- another benefit of the ASP is that members often give members free software. I've gotten free licensed copies of WinZIP, FTP Voyager, and many other programs just by being a member.

It's worth mentioning that this sorta thing is ongoing -- you'll see free/discount offers for various utilities (and sometimes games) in asp.members.classifieds, and the ASP also has a members-only webpage listing currently active offers. Within the last 30 days, there have been over a dozen such postings in the newsgroups.

It seems strange but I'd feel much happier if it were a monthly sub rather than a yearly fee. Even if it worked out the same at the end of the year. There's something about the knowledge that if you quit halfway you haven't just burned $50 on something you're not getting.

Cas :)

There have been prior discussions about lowering or changing the ASP's fee structure, especially since the ASP has a rather large nest egg of cash that it doesn't even seem to need. But in the end many members prefer keeping the dues at $100 because then you know everyone else there has at least a minimum degree of commitment, and this keeps the overall quality of the newsgroups high. In truth the ASP isn't really out to maximize its membership because too many members could actually reduce the value of membership for everyone.

In order to function well, the ASP requires a healthy ratio of experts to novices. On most public newsgroups (especially on GameDev.net), novices vastly outnumber experts. What might be the ratio in GameDev.net's business forum? If I had to guess, I'd say it's something like 20 to 1. On these forums maybe it's something like 8 to 1. In the ASP though, it's probably more like 4 to 1, and the reason is that everyone there has to pay that $100 entry fee, which far more experts are willing to pay than novices. Lowering the annual dues or switching to a monthly fee structure would IMHO flood the organization with too many novices, which would then ultimately drive out many of the experts and greatly reduce the value of the org.

Imagine what would happen if I started charging $20/year for access to these forums. A lot of members would drop, but those that chose to remain would likely be more committed and serious than those that drop, so while there would be fewer members, the forums might actually increase in value for those that stay. That's basically what happens with the ASP and why, for those who opt to pay the entry fee, the newsgroups are so valuable.

1001st post above!

Quick! Someone stop steve from trying to make money off his message board!

Originally posted by Terin
1001st post above!

Quick! Someone stop steve from trying to make money off his message board!

I'm only the #2 poster though -- princec has me beat. Should we rename these the "Alien Flux Forums?" :confused:

Then maybe no one would come xD and eventually everyone would be granted admin status....

Originally posted by Dexterity
Imagine what would happen if I started charging $20/year for access to these forums. A lot of members would drop, but those that chose to remain would likely be more committed and serious than those that drop, so while there would be fewer members, the forums might actually increase in value for those that stay. That's basically what happens with the ASP and why, for those who opt to pay the entry fee, the newsgroups are so valuable.

In my opinion you really should do something like this. I don't want to see these forums turn into anything like gamedev.net. I think $20 a year is nothing, literally. It's only about one sale for many of us, and if it improves the quality of these forums I'm all up for it. And you could use money left over from paying the forum expenses to help the indie community or donate it to charity if you wanted to. Or just keep it for yourself, that wouldn't bother me. :)

Originally posted by Fenix Down
In my opinion you really should do something like this. I don't want to see these forums turn into anything like gamedev.net. I think $20 a year is nothing, literally. It's only about one sale for many of us, and if it improves the quality of these forums I'm all up for it.

... you implying that there's a bunch of current posters you're hoping to get rid of? :)

Originally posted by papillon
... you implying that there's a bunch of current posters you're hoping to get rid of? :)

Yeah, I'm in the "new Indie" category. Are you guys trying to get rid of people like me? :eek:

I didn't renew my subscription to the ASP this year either. I had been a member for the two years previous. I'm not trying to be a contrarion, but for me the two most tangible benefits of ASP membership where the ASPEcts monthly newsletter, and the newsgroups.

When I first started the newsgroups were manageable, but along the way they started getting a lot of traffic, there were a few months of pretty useless debate about the name of the ASP, then a large portion of the board of directors quit and there was tons of newsgroup traffic about that. In the end the noise to signal ratio was just too high for me to be bothered to keep up with the daily chatter on the newsgroups.

I find now that I prefer message boards over newsgroups as a medium of community interaction. The ASP newsgroups just didn't have enough for me as a game developer to warrant hitting the "Update" button in my mail client each day. Specific questions were answered quickly, but my general sense was a good portion of the ASP members do not participate regularly in the newsgroups and the information just wasn't as interesting and targeted towards the problems that budding Indie Game developers face.

The monthly newsletter (that arrives in hardcopy via snailmail) was decent and had some good articles that I enjoyed, but it wasn't quite enough to warrant the $100 bucks a year. One thing that is nice however is that when you join you get stuck on a ton of ASP link pages that various members host around the web and I did notice an increase in traffic to my site. However not having anything to sell, and the fact that I’m having difficulty keeping the site up to date while working on my game, this increased traffic wasn't really worth the $100 either.

In short, when I release my game I will revisit the decision to be an ASP member and see if it makes sense for me. I have a feeling it will but not for right now.

Since the ASP newsgroups get a large volume of posts, I've had to learn to manage them very efficiently, so I never get bogged down reading threads I don't care about. Here's what I do:

I use Outlook Express as my newsgroup reader. Whenever I check one of the newsgroups for new messages (which I usually do about twice a week), I might see 50 new threads pop up. I select the first thread and then hit Ctrl-A (select all) and then Alt-M-I (ignore all). What this does is set every thread to be ignored. I quickly scroll through the threads, read any that look interesting, and then un-ignore any threads I plan to continue reading when new posts are made. When I'm done, I mark all threads as read.

I have Outlook Express set not to display ignored threads/messages. So when I end my session, all the threads I've ignored become permanently invisible, so I never see them again even if new posts appear. The next time I login I'll only see brand new threads and previous threads I un-ignored. At any one time I might leave only one or two threads un-ignored, so I follow only a tiny percentage of threads at any one time. The max is usually around five.

This method saves me a ton of time. If there's a thread I don't care about it, I'll never see it after the very first time. Despite the large volume of posts, I can usually keep up on the newsgroups in about 10-15 minutes per week.

Hey, I'm also in the "new Indie" category, still nothing to show, but I would pay 20-30$ for this forum if paid subscription model makes it more valuable ! I think that everyone that is serious with the idea of becoming an indie would pay this amount ? Let's compare it to the price of some book that you want to read to learn something !
By the way, can anyone who is member of ASP make a little comparison of usefulness between ASP and this forums ?

That's a good strategy Steve, I'll have to try that one.

To the above poster, this forum has a lot more information with regards to the specifics of indie game development and game development in general. The ASP is a good source of motivation (you see other successful indies, despite the fact they they all make tools of one sort or another), it's also a good source of information for web based marketing, and the downloadable software industry in general.

ASP really does sound great...
The problem that I, like many other developers face, is time constraints. As soon as I can ease myself into a regular schedule than it sounds like it is definately worth joining.

Alex

Has the ASP considered replacing or supplementing the newsgroups with forums? That's one of the big things that have kept me from signing-up. The newsgroups sound like a great source of information, but the newsgroup format feels very clunky and it's just a part of the internet that my mind always greatly resists using.

Well like a lot of others we've plunged for the ASP on the strength of this thread, though I'm all for the Dexterity boards being subscription based as well. Over the last year they've been the best indie game developer site on the net IMHO. But, there's no doubt that there is a LOT more noise recently and the same questions being asked over and over. Sometimes even only a couple of threads apart, which to me suggests people don't even bother reading what's already here. Slowly but inexorably turning into gamedev.net

If a small subscription is all it's going to take to keep one of the most valuable indie game dev resources as one of the most valuable indie game dev resources then I'd like to see it happen. Perhaps only paid up members could post? That would still leave the boards available to all newcomers as the valuable starting point that they are.

SC

The reason people do not read what's already there is a) because the search feature is primitive and often unreliable and difficult to use and b) that's Just How Web Forums Work, as a result of their annoying flat layout and slow delivery, and it's not going to change, subs or not.

Cas :)

I actually like the Usenet newsgroup format the ASP uses because it's very fast and efficient as compared to web-based forums. It's not as rich, but for experienced users you can get around a lot more quickly.

There's an upgrade to VBulletin (which these forums use) that's available now, and I'm considering upgrading from version 2.x to 3.x. One new feature is support for threaded views. The upgrade is free because Dexterity already owns a VBulletin license.

As compared to these forums, the ASP seems to focus more on marketing, selling, order processing, and business and legal issues and less on product development and design issues. In other words it's more focused on the practical how-to business side. Some topics like anti-piracy get a much deeper treatment in the ASP because the newsgroups are private; there are some techniques I've never seen mentioned outside the ASP. I also find that the ASP is a great source of industry news items. If there's a new worm or virus going around or a new patent problem or a new technology that's relevant to shareware authors, I always hear about it in the ASP first.

Just a quick note to let you know we are yet another Steve's abductees :)

The biggest killer of any forum/newsgroup is noise. I was a moderator at WebmasterWorld.com for 3 years and came over there as a refugee from SearchEngineForums due to the noise factor. However, WebmasterWorld is now facing the same problems and many of the core members have left. Charging a fee is a great way to weed out that very noise and increase the quality of discussion for all involved. Plus, I think moderators and board admins need some kind of compensation for the amount of work they put into keeping people in line.

As far as the ASP, I have been a member going on 2 years and have not participated much in the newsgroups (which sounds like where the real value is) since I spent so much time at WebmasterWorld. I haven't gotten much out of the ASPects newsletters and honestly only read them for software deals :-) I will check out the newsgroups though and see what is going on in there (great tip on managing the threads Steve, thanks)

I am strongly considering joining the ASP now because of this post. I haven't finished my first real game yet though, although I should have it finished this summer. The main information I would interested in initially would be tips and how-to's on actually starting up my first business. After I get my buseness started the marketing and other buisness related information seems like it would be very useful.

The only reason I hesitate to join now is because my game is not ready to be released, and that before I join an organization of shareware developers that I should be sure that I am going to be able to start my shareware business within some reasonable amount of time.

Maybe it is just that in the past I have been where I am now feeling like everything is going great with my project when I realize that a large amount of it should be rewritten.

Perhaps I just need to be confident and not look at the past. Although, maybe joining the ASP would help motivate me and reassure me that I will be able to start my shareware buisness.

Sorry for diverging from the topic a bit in my post, but I would appreciate it if you (ASP members) think that I would benefit from joining now or if i should wait until I am closer to starting my business.

Thank You for your thoughts.

Personally I think it's a mistake to hesitate to join because you're waiting to start a business or waiting to release your first game. I initially joined the ASP shortly before my first shareware game (BrainWave) was released, and the ASP resources were very helpful in giving me ideas to prepare the demo, such as coming up with decent registration incentives, writing the EULA, preparing the game for submission to download sites, and learning which disk/CD vendors to submit the game to. Also, I used some (now-defunct) ASP members' services to distribute my game, and because I was a member I became aware of these services early on, so that when I did launch I was ready to go with some decent promotion right out of the gate.

Here's a question: When your first game is ready for release, will you know exactly how to market and distribute it? That should be figured out before you go gold, and that's something the ASP can definitely help you with. It takes time to acquire this kind of knowledge, so it's never too early to start soaking it up.

A lot of new members join at the point where they're just thinking about getting into shareware, so there are plenty of threads about how to start a new business (sole proprietor, LLC, partnership, corporation, etc), accounting, web hosting, registration services, etc. I think it's a great idea to expose yourself to all this info before you get too deep into your business. You might catch and correct mistakes in your plan much earlier. And even if you ultimately decide not to start a business, at least you'll have an accurate picture of what it's really like before you have to make the big leap.

Here's another reason to join the ASP - I've been catching up on the last 2 weeks of newsgroup posts, and someone has mentioned where you can get Visual C++ 2003 for free. Legally. Download directly from Microsoft.com.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualc/vctoolkit2003/

This is the sort of thing I'd never hear about unless I was an ASP member. Or knew an ASP member who posted on a public forum ;)

Originally posted by Dexterity
I use Outlook Express as my newsgroup reader.... I select the first thread and then hit Ctrl-A (select all) and then Alt-M-I (ignore all). What this does is set every thread to be ignored.
Thanks for the tip Steve! I use Microplanet Gravity (http://www.microplanet.com/) as my newsreader, and it has a similar ignore function (just type 'I' on a post and the whole thread will be ignored).

Gravity is now open source (http://mpgravity.sourceforge.net/) under a BSD licence (woohoo! No GPL!).

I'd like to second what Steve has said.

I've been a member for two days now and I'm still pouring through the marketing newsgroups. My reading list and ideas to explore has grown tremendously.

A great game/product is only the beginning, and the ASP is clearly a great resource to help get you the rest of the way. If you are starting a business (not just hacking out a game), then you need to spend time learning how this type of business works.

Tapping into the knowledge in the ASP for $100, is a steal. Another great reason to join the ASP is that it is an affirmation to yourself that you are serious and committed. This is a powerful thing.

Best of luck to all!

Jeff

If I had 100 bucks I might be inclined to join, but as it stands, I have only 50 bucks to my name.

Originally posted by Uhfgood
If I had 100 bucks ...

In the grand scheme of things, $100 is really nothing. If you drink soda every day at lunch, you are spending more than $100 a year just for that. Do the math: $.50 per can (or thereabouts), 5 days a week (work week), 50 weeks a year (minus 2 for vacation and whatnot).

People have trouble parting with money in lump sums for some reason. You won't mind spending $10 at 10 places as much as spending it all at one place. It is even worse if you spend the money in cash form rather than in plastic form. I certainly follow this pattern. I wonder why? Must be some kinda psychological thing.

Maybe ASP should charge people $10/month instead charging an annual fee.

Originally posted by Uhfgood
If I had 100 bucks I might be inclined to join, but as it stands, I have only 50 bucks to my name.

That's because you aren't an ASP member. :)

I'm actually only half-joking. My membership pays for itself many times over every year. The most basic way this happens is that just by being active in the ASP newsgroups, enough ASP members happen to check out my site, and a few eventually buy a game or two, which to my suprise is more than enough to pay for my dues each year. So it would actually be stupid of me to quit the ASP, since I'd lose money (and customers) by doing so. And this is just for games, and I certainly don't push my games on the ASP crowd. It's really just a passive side effect of participation. I'm sure people who sell software that's targeted towards developers will see much greater sales just from being a member.

Plus there are other passive benefits that can easily pay your dues for you. For example, the ASP has its own download site just for members, so you get some extra traffic and downloads for your products when you join. It isn't much, but the ASP web site is fairly popular (Alexa reports 2500 other sites linking to it), so it does drive traffic to the ASP download site. The download site isn't overcrowded with listings because only ASP members can submit products to it.

So I wouldn't think of the $100 as a sacrifice but rather as an investment. I've been broke before where I used to barely squeak by each month with less than $100 in the bank, and sometimes I still had more month left at the end of the money. But I learned that I wasn't spending too much money; trying to spend less and less actually made the problem worse. I was investing too little, bypassing opportunities to turn $10 into $50 or $100 into $500 because I was too afraid of losing that $10 or $100 and not excited enough about making the $50 or $500. I escaped that situation partly by switching my focus to what I would gain instead of what I woud lose. I put more thought into focusing on the potential upside instead of the potential downside. What if you lose $100? Yes, that sucks. But OTOH, what if you make $1000 back? What if you make $10,000 back? Your worst-case downside is fixed at $100, but your best-case upside could be much, much higher. These are the kind of bets I like.

One of my biggest problems right now is finding a knowledgeable, trustworthy lawyer and CPA. Would becoming a member help me with that at all? Do you have CPA or lawyer members who happen to be software developers? Or anyone who is perhaps a member who doesn't mind sharing his/her CPA and/or lawyer?

Asking for CPA/lawyer recommendations is common in the ASP newsgroups, especially when something goes wrong (like an unexpected IRS audit or a nasty patent problem).

I found an experienced intellectual property lawyer through the ASP. His name is Lance Rose, and he lives in NYC. He helped craft Dexterity's original publishing contracts and reviewed a couple licensing agreements for me. I also worked with him a lot while I was ASP President, since he was the ASP's attorney too (and I think he probably still is). He's also spoken at the Shareware Industry Conference, which is where I first met him in person. He's extremely knowledgeable about IP law and wrote a book on the subject, which I actually own a copy of. I'm pretty sure he's still an ASP member too. He isn't cheap though -- good IP lawyers never are.

The ASP is just an awesome resource for building a software business. When I hired my first employee and needed to start doing payroll, there were ASP members I could turn to who helped me understand the process. One member, Jerry Medlin, is an accountant who sells accounting software, so I bought his payroll program (www.medlin.com), which is much easier to use than QuickBooks. It just does payroll and nothing else, and there's even a discount (20% I think) for ASP members, which I took advantage of when buying it. I think it was only something like $35, and it was so easy that it allowed me to do payroll in less than 5 minutes per pay period. But because Jerry was active in the ASP, I already knew I could turn to him when I started doing payroll, so having that resource available made it easier for me to make that first hire.

The ASP makes it easier to grow my business because I know if I ever face new situations, there are always other members who've already been through it. If you get a surprise IRS audit, or a nasty letter from a lawyer accusing you of copyright or patent infringement, or your web server gets hacked, or you want to incorporate, or you want to double your sales in six months, or you need a way to make $1000 fast, or you need a source of cheaper bandwidth immediately, there's some ASP member who's already been through it and can talk you through it.

Public forums like this one are great for technical development oriented questions. If you have a question about how to do something in DirectX, you'll get better advice here than you will in the ASP. However, if you have a business-oriented question, you'll likely get much better advice in the ASP.

I think for someone who's never run a business before, the word "business" is such an amorphous, unclear concept. It's just something you do for money, and it doesn't really mean much. You might have a wealth of technical knowledge about all the steps needed to develop a game (tools, processes, algorithms, strategies, solutions, resources, etc). But your whole understanding of running a software business is probably much simpler. But business itself is at least as rich and deep a topic as game development. There's just so much to learn in this area that people don't even know they don't know when they're first starting out. I think where the ASP helped me a lot was just exposing me to all these rich complexities early, so that when I ultimately faced them myself, I was already prepared.

Well, I just jumped on the wagon too. I originally thought it would be useless to join until my game was nearing completion but Steve convinced me otherwise.

Thanks for the advice.

It's funny, when you say, "I don't have the money" people automatically assume, you're just saying that, and in reality you do have the money, but are just being miserly about it. I literally don't have 100 dollars, I live at home with my Dad, and we usually have enough for rent and groceries basically. As far as myself I only have 50 bucks, quite literally. I don't spend extra money on anything else.

Plus I have nothing to show for myself right now anyways, not until I complete a few of my games, then i'll start thinking about saving money to help me in my business efforts.

Originally posted by Uhfgood
It's funny, when you say, "I don't have the money" people automatically assume, you're just saying that, and in reality you do have the money, but are just being miserly about it.

Well, you're half-right. When people say "I don't have the money," (at least if they live in the USA and aren't homeless), I do usually assume they do have the money. But I don't believe it's because they're miserly... more that they don't recognize the money they have. Money might not be sitting in one's wallet as cash or in a bank account; it might be in another form... unneeded junk that can be sold on ebay or at a garage sale, free time that can be put to work to generate income, etc. The average family has thousands of dollars (market value) of junk just lying around unused.

In my experience when people say "I don't have the money," that belief behaves more like a cause than an effect. That was certainly true for me, and it took me a while to break that habit of thinking and replace it with, "How can I get the money?" or better yet, "How can I get the money and enjoy the process too?"

I don't pretend to know your actual situation, so please accept my apologies if the above doesn't apply and I'm way off base. When I was broke and only had about $50 to my name, it was helpful for me to look around and see just how much money I really had, even though it wasn't in the form of cash. I had two back-to-back garage sales and coverted a pile of junk into almost $1500 in cash (old clothes, books, games, etc). Plus it was a good way to clean out the closets. :)

So what you are saying is, I should sell my transformers collection that, ehhm, I have been saving for my ehhm, kids, yeah, in exchange for a chance at fortune???

Decisions, decisions, darn, that's tough! Growing up sux! :)

Seriously though, great idea. What's an optimus prime worth these days? Hehehe. $100 anyone?

If you need a few bucks, ebay is your saviour. You are 100% certain to have junk that someone else will pay for.

Cas :)

Originally posted by KoekTromL
So what you are saying is, I should sell my transformers collection that, ehhm, I have been saving for my ehhm, kids, yeah, in exchange for a chance at fortune???

Decisions, decisions, darn, that's tough! Growing up sux! :)

Seriously though, great idea. What's an optimus prime worth these days? Hehehe. $100 anyone?


Cool, do you have any pictures of the collection, I still have that Decepticon, the one that was also a plane and was always trying to take Megatron place but always being dissed and made fun of by Megatron, Sky something! AFAIK all the other ones were given to charity.


Keith: why not try to get a job mowing lawns or cleaning windows to build a small cash stock? If I'm not mistaken wasn't this what you were doing a few months ago?

<edit> I joined too, I've been looking to subscribe for a while now but never got my head to it, I was also planning to get Dweep next month for a relative so that pretty much made the sale =)</edit>

Bruno

Yea Yea Yea. Another one forkin out the cash, no thanks to that smooth talkin' Pavlina guy. Steve, I sure hope your commission makes up for all the lost sales in Dweep :D I figure, at the very least my kids will be happy with the full version of the game. Since the ASP renewal price for the 2nd year is the same if you register between april - june, no point in waiting any longer. I'm definitely commited now, gotta make some money to cover all these expenses.

But seriously; Steve, thanks for the push. I'm looking forward to all that knowledge and experience on the ASP site.

I too have finally joined. I've been putting it off for months, now was a good time as any. :)

I've been told by the ASP that these forums are their number one referrer of new members (even before this thread was started). I don't get any kind of commission though. My real reason for promoting the ASP is to overwhlem it with game developers, so we can ultimately transform it into the Association of Indie Game Developers, take control of the ASP's assets, and put them to use promoting all our games. So far our fellow gamers have already been inserted into the ASP positions of Chairman of the Board, Vice President, and Webmaster. Eventually they'll all be assimilated. Remember when it comes to election time in the ASP that each one of you gets a vote, and the winning board members in each election may only win by 10 or 20 votes sometimes. The board then appoints all the officers. Muahahaha.

I'm kidding of course, but now I'm starting to convince myself that this could actually work. :eek:

So what you are saying is, I should sell my transformers collection that, ehhm, I have been saving for my ehhm, kids, yeah, in exchange for a chance at fortune???

Shhh! The enemy (http://www.dexterity.com/forums/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=1005) will hear you. :)

Originally posted by Dexterity
Personally I think it's a mistake to hesitate to join because you're waiting to start a business or waiting to release your first game.
Yeah, I think Steve is completely right. But, personally, I'll postpone anyway a little bit the joining for concentrating a little bit more on the game and my exams, before to cope with such a big amount of informations. Anyway, yes, joining the association before to start, seems completely logic. Thanx to Steve for the useful topic! :)

Originally posted by Dexterity
Personally I think it's a mistake to hesitate to join because you're waiting to start a business or waiting to release your first game.

A lot of new members join at the point where they're just thinking about getting into shareware, so there are plenty of threads about how to start a new business (sole proprietor, LLC, partnership, corporation, etc), accounting, web hosting, registration services, etc. I think it's a great idea to expose yourself to all this info before you get too deep into your business. You might catch and correct mistakes in your plan much earlier. And even if you ultimately decide not to start a business, at least you'll have an accurate picture of what it's really like before you have to make the big leap.

Thanks for the comments Steve.

I have decided to join because it sounds like the information available to ASP members is exactly what I need/will need. I also think the type of people in the ASP will help me be even more serious about starting a shareware business.

When I first found these forums and the articles on Dexterity.com, I felt more serious about starting a shareware business and that I could do it. Reading posts here helps me motivate myself to work on my game when I am feeling unmotivated. I think the ASP should have the same effect.

So I am just awaiting my membership info...

Btw Steve, my last reply wasn't really in contention to your reply of my original post, but someone else's reply of my original post, by trying to tell me if I spend the money I have the money i could spend elsewhere, and that 100 dollars isn't that much. And yes I was referring to cash on hand and in the bank (i have 20 on hand and 30 in the bank, and that's it) as far as junk i could sell, I have some, and have sold through ebay a couple of times. I guess I could do that.

There is also something else, i'm working on a contract job, and assuming I finish it in any reasonable amount of time to the satisfaction of the employer, i'll be getting enough to cover the cost of 1 year in the asp. I may opt to do it then, i've been generally saving my money for my "business". So joining the asp would probably be part of that. Investing whatever money I need to do that. But this won't be for another few months.

Anyways, i'll look into it, when I have the cash-on-hand ;-)

Bruno - I believe the name of the decepticon you are looking for is StarScream - as he was Megatron's second in command as-it-were. As far as work no, i wasn't mowing lawns or any other thing like that, i've only worked at the post office once in my life for about 8 months. And i've taken a few contract jobs having to do with games, other than that, haven't done much job-wise.

KoekTromL - are they the original die-cast metal transformers? they should be worth a mint, if they are, and if you have enough of them.

Aaaaaargh!

All of you put that hundred bucks back in your wallets or give it to me for safekeeping ;)!

Now tell me what exactly you're looking for in the ASP membership - not just what Steve tells you you might be able to find, but what you're actually looking for!

This is why I didn't renew my membership this year. I prematurely joined on a wave of enthusiasm and completely failed to use any resources available to me. Be sure you know what you need!

Cas :)

Originally posted by princec

Now tell me what exactly you're looking for in the ASP membership


1. Associate with professionals who are successful and experienced at doing what I'd really like to be doing.

2. Learn more about marketing / sales from people who have been there, done that.

3. Learn about business facts (ie. actual sales figures, detailed marketing strategies) that many people are reluctant to discuss in a totally open forum.

4. Find out how much I really don't know about running a shareware business. And then do something about it.

5. Network (human, not machine).

6. Make a further investment / commitment to myself that I will be successful in this business.

princec . . . what did you get from it? I'm sure there must have been something.

Originally posted by SunAndGames
princec . . . what did you get from it? I'm sure there must have been something. [/B]

More people to laugh at Java :-P

J/K. Been thinking about joining the ASP myself for a long time, and probably will soon. However doing to much other stuff at the moment to get the full value of it.

I got precisely, absolutely, completely 0 - zip - zilch from it. I might as well have set fire to a pile of 100 dollar bills. At least it would have made me warm for a few seconds and it would be a bit rock n' roll :P

And that's purely my fault. I'm sure that the ASP has plenty to offer, but beating a path to their door with $100 looking for some magic fairy to turn up and Make You Rich Selling Your Game ... isn't why you're there. So I'm saying - think long and hard about ASP membership and join when you really understand why you're joining, rather than when smoov talkin' Steve tells you that it's the bestest thing since the internet and it's made him a millionaire.

Cas :)

If you want to get good value from an ASP membership, then you really need to dive into the newsgroups (especially asp.members and asp.marketing) as soon as you join. You probably won't have time to keep up on all the posts, nor will many of the topics be relevant to you. But you will learn quite a bit within the first several weeks. Also, make a post to introduce yourself and ask for feedback on your web site if you have one already -- you'll get some great info that way.

And of course ask a lot of questions. I find that the best questions are when I identify a goal I want to reach and then ask other members how they achieved it. It could be a financial goal, setting up a customer database, reconfiguring a web server, increasing web traffic to X visitors per day, getting to #1 on a search keyword, etc. Pretty much every business or technical challenge you'll face, someone else has already done it.

For example, if you want to get to the point of making $3000/month from shareware marketing, ask members who've already done if they could explain what they did (what worked and what didn't). One of the first things I did when joining the ASP newsgroups was to find out who was making over $100K/year and then ask each of them how they did it. At the time I was making only $300/month from shareware. Then I applied what I learned from them and within a few years, I was getting their results too. It's really not that complicated and difficult when you have so many great people to model. If you want to get your business to six figures a year, there are plenty of members who've been at that level for years. I just wish the ASP had more millionaire members. I did meet one member a while back who made something like $1.2 million in a year (solo, no employees); he was pretty happy about it and got a good brain-picking from me. :)

I have to agree that you'll get out of your ASP membership what you put into it. If you decide to join, then put it to work for you as I have, and I think you'll find it really pays off. Joining the ASP and not taking advantage of its resources is like buying a new cutting edge PC and doing nothing with it but playing Alien Flux. ;)

Keep in mind that if you run a business, your ASP membership should be tax deductible as an expense too.

Steve, if you ever quit the game biz, please become a motivational speaker. Every time I read one of your articles, or even one of your posts, I feel re-energized and even more eager to pursue my game dev dreams to the fullest. Thanks for that :)

And thanks to Cas also, for reminding us that dreaming is great, but to keep our feet on the ground while doing so ;)

Seriously, guys, I'm not trying to be a suckup or anything, but the amount of real-life experience you and others share here is as valuable as any of the technical know-how I've accumulated over the years. Which is why I think membership in the ASP will be very much a necessity for me once my project hits the final stretch.

Originally posted by princec
Now tell me what exactly you're looking for in the ASP membership - not just what Steve tells you you might be able to find, but what you're actually looking for!
[/B]

The answer is easy:

1) The opportunity to actively network with professional people working in the same types of businesses as me.

2) A group of peers that I can ask detailed questions of for guidance.

3) A bunch of things that are basically extrapolations of the above two.

Jeff

Personally, I've found the information contained in the ASP newsgroups and ASPects newsletters to be fantastic. I'd originally thought my fledgling products were in pretty good shape but the more I mine the newsgroups, the more I realise I can dramatically improve my entire software/marketing channel.

Believe me, I have a huge list of improvements to make, none of which I would have been aware of without the newsgroups and articles.

Prior to joining the ASP, I spent 6 months wading around the Internet piecing together information on shareware businesses - yet all that info (and more) is immediately available upon joining the ASP.

The #1 thing for me though, is that the folks within the ASP newsgroups don't endlessly wonder whether or not it is possible to 'make it' in shareware - they believe they can, and even help others to achieve it.

This is an important thing to me - I'm surrounded by people who tell me none of this is possible - so just the verification of successful shareware businesses from the ASP members is worth the $100 to me.

Originally posted by Firestorm
Steve, if you ever quit the game biz, please become a motivational speaker. Every time I read one of your articles, or even one of your posts, I feel re-energized and even more eager to pursue my game dev dreams to the fullest. Thanks for that :)
stretch.

Tell me about it.. I almost quit my day job before opting to take a safer route and keep a regular income from a duller, yet safer source :)

One might say I chickened out.. but hell yes.. it's not like I'm just coming out of college / uni with a zilch burn rate!

The #1 thing for me though, is that the folks within the ASP newsgroups don't endlessly wonder whether or not it is possible to 'make it' in shareware - they believe they can, and even help others to achieve it.

This is an important thing to me - I'm surrounded by people who tell me none of this is possible - so just the verification of successful shareware businesses from the ASP members is worth the $100 to me.

Bingo.

Even with Steve's sales pitch, this was the number one reason why I joined.

As great as this forum is, there are a lot of people here who are still very doubtful about making a living with shareware. They either say it's near impossible or it takes 4-5 years (after developing 10-20 titles). Until recently it hasn't really bothered me since I'm the type of person who gets motivated when someone says something is "very hard" or "impossible". But now I'm knee deep in development and I'm trying to get over the hump, so it's time for some positive re-enforcement. I want to start reading about and hopefully talk to people who are successful and confident with their shareware business. Hopefully even get some personal advice from them. :)

Like I said this forum has been and still is great. It really forced me to stop and think, and get things in order and not just do them half-heartedly. If I thought shareware was all rosy and didn't hear all the cautionary tales here, I probably would have rushed out my first game with little thought, and of course it probably would have done badly. But reading these forums forced me to get my act together and take the shareware business seriously from the start. I just think it's time to also surround myself with people who are successful in Shareware to help get me through the last leg of my game. That's why I joined the ASP.

Originally posted by princec
Now tell me what exactly you're looking for in the ASP membership - not just what Steve tells you you might be able to find, but what you're actually looking for!


I'm just looking for something to read and talk about shareware that isn't written by wannabe kids (no offense to anyone) when I'm slacking off at work. :)

That and the fact I just got a decent unexpected bonus!

Chris Evans wrote:
"But now I'm knee deep in development and I'm trying to get over the hump, so it's time for some positive re-enforcement."

Well, allright then:
- You can do it! -

There...

;)

Thanks! :D

Originally posted by Wibble
The #1 thing for me though, is that the folks within the ASP newsgroups don't endlessly wonder whether or not it is possible to 'make it' in shareware - they believe they can, and even help others to achieve it.

This is an important thing to me - I'm surrounded by people who tell me none of this is possible - so just the verification of successful shareware businesses from the ASP members is worth the $100 to me.

For probably a couple years (circa 1999-2000), the ASP newgroups were the only online forums I regularly participated in. When I started posting in other places like GameDev.net and later here in the Dexterity forums, I was amazed that there were people who doubted the possibility of making it in shareware. At first I thought people who had this attitude were joking with me... like they were just trying to get a rise out of me. Either that or they were completely blind to all the success stories. It took me a few weeks to realize that they really didn't believe it was possible. Shortly after launching these forums, I stopped participating in the GameDev.net forums -- the attitude there was so doubtful and negative that it was even starting to make me doubt that what I was doing was possible. :)

Mindsets are truly infectious.

I just learned that the ASP welcoming committee has been overwhelmed with new members. Thanks to everyone who joined! I've been giving away quite a few copies of Dweep Gold the past few days.

Remember that today is the last day to get your free copy of Dweep Gold if you decide to join -- I know it can take a day or two to get your membership number, so if you do happen to join today but don't get your membership number in time, it's no problem -- just PM me when you eventually get it.

And just to help you get into the ASP newsgroups, there's a new thread in asp.members titled "ASP Growing." So if you joined from these forums (either this week or earlier), that's a great place to reply with an intro post about yourself.

Just joined, hope it's not too late for Dweep :)

Peer pressure is a wonderful thing, I just joined. I've been contemplating joining for the past couple of months but without a clear idea of what's "inside" I've procrastinated about it.

This thread helped change that. Learning I may be eligable for a free copy of Dweep Gold certainly helped too! :)

Originally posted by Dexterity:
When I was broke and only had about $50 to my name, it was helpful for me to look around and see just how much money I really had, even though it wasn't in the form of cash. I had two back-to-back garage sales and coverted a pile of junk into almost $1500 in cash (old clothes, books, games, etc). Plus it was a good way to clean out the closets. :) A real self-made man! :cool:

Heh, "self-made" with all the help from the ASP members. B-)

I think the key to a self-made success is to make sure you have a few good giants to stand on.

Mixing metaphors and quotes again...I need sleep.

Originally posted by GBGames
I think the key to a self-made success is to make sure you have a few good giants to stand on.

Bingo.

Originally posted by GBGames
I think the key to a self-made success is to make sure you have a few good giants to stand on.

That is true for anything really. Especially stocks (equities) if you are into that stuff! ;) All you need is one or two stellars and you are all set for life. Of course those are hard to come by.

I can only echo the great things that Steve has said about the ASP. If creating that killer game (or application) that frees you from the chains of your "day job" is your dream, the ASP is where you need to be right now.

You get the amazing discounts on software and services (some of them completely free), you get the monthly magazine with marketing tips and invaluable news, and of course you get the Shareware Author's Guide. But the private ASP newsgroups is the Fort Knox of the whole thing - it's filled of gold. Nowhere else will you get ideas, advice, help and friendship like you will in the ASP newsgroups - and it's all SPAM free. If you want to hear from people who have made it as independent software publishers, that's the place to be.

I know 100 bucks seems like a lot of money to shell out, but when you think about it, you're getting all of that for only $8.33 /mo. When you look at it that way, it's an absolute steal.