Just a quick serious question about getting into the Indie Biz. How long do you think it takes to become stable; best-case and worst-case. ( stable to me means at least $30/year ) I'm graduating college in two weeks and I have plenty of programming experience to produce a quality game, and I have experience developing websites. Other than that, I've obviously got minimal experience in marketing or running a business. I plan on living with my parents for a year (save money) - and I'm engaged and getting married July/August of 2005. Should I try to start my Indie Biz now? Is a year enough time to bring in my required $2500/month by time I get married? Should I go get an entry-level computer job that pays $40,000 and just try to do the business on the side. And if so, how long will it take to startup my Indie Biz on the side (given I would want to spend time with my family and time sleeping and not programming 24/7)? Just trying to get some advice on what's reasonable to expect. Any suggestions from successful full-time Indies would be great.

- Jeremiah

Ah, not sure what you mean by stable. You say $30p/y then later ask about $2500p/month... I'm no industry veteran in fact I'm just starting out seriously in indie development. BUT I would strongly advise against trying to go the indie route at this point in your life. There's about a 1% chance of earning anywhere near $2,500 p/month as an indie unless you can secure a licence,have a team, and have some industry leads. $2,500p/m PROFIT in any industry is alot for any new business and setting this goal for 12 months is only setting yourself up for disappointment.

I would advise you speak to you wife to be. Does she work? could she support you both? if so maybe you could give the indie route a shot. Does she like the idea of you working in the games industry? (ie. does she realise the hours involved?) Does she have skills in game development? How does she see married life? - starting a business is going to leave little time for travel, kids etc.

I think you'd be better off looking for a job in the industry and building up contacts, also use your time there to find others that want to go the indie route, learn how the company you work for operates etc.

"You say $30p/y then later ask about $2500p/month"

Sorry, I was trying to say $30,000/year; which is the same as $2,500/month. :)

It just seems to me that to make $2,500/month (or $30,000/year) I would need to sell a $20 game 125 times a month. (or just 125 purchaes of however many $20 games I offer on my website - like if I can make 2 games in a years time). Is this resonable to expect within a year? Can someone take a year and with the right amount of effort and motivation get to a $2,500/month salary by selling games online?

- Jeremiah

For me it was:
Figuring out how to do it = 4 years
Actually doing it = 1 year (6 months to develop a game + 6 months to generate enough sales to sustain $2500/month)

So I think if you're committed and make a fun game that people want to own, a year is reasonable, assuming you understand shareware marketing. I think that in order to build a sufficient level of sales, you have to allocate at least as much time to marketing as you do to development.

It just seems to me that to make $2,500/month (or $30,000/year) I would need to sell a $20 game 125 times a month. (or just 125 purchaes of however many $20 games I offer on my website - like if I can make 2 games in a years time)
Actually, if you want to make 2500$/month you would need something around 200 sales per month. Take into account 15-20% that your e-commerce partner gets, file hosting fees etc.

Originally posted by Trixx
Actually, if you want to make 2500$/month you would need something around 200 sales per month. Take into account 15-20% that your e-commerce partner gets, file hosting fees etc.

you're right. thanks for bringing that up. :)

- jeremiah

$2500/month is possible within a year but i would not expect to achieve it within a year. You have to finish the game first, and it has to be reasonably good to achieve those kind of sales on a regular basis. Personally I would say go for it. You have a great opportunity to give it 100% and if after 6 months/a year it's not working out then you can reconsider and think about getting a "real" job. :) Don't expect great things to happen immediately or you'll be disappointed. Just work hard and learn as much as you can then as things progress you might be pleasantly surprised.

Originally posted by Dexterity
Figuring out how to do it = 4 years
Actually doing it = 1 year

(sorry little off topic) Or just own some Las Vegas property and get huge increase in property value each month. The lady and I just looked at possible 2nd home in Vegas since a few buddies moved up there getting big awesome homes just a year ago.... prices now ah nuts. Some people are lucky :-)

Originally posted by yeahgofigure
(sorry little off topic) Or just own some Las Vegas property and get huge increase in property value each month. The lady and I just looked at possible 2nd home in Vegas since a few buddies moved up there getting big awesome homes just a year ago.... prices now ah nuts. Some people are lucky :-)

Tell me about it. My wife and I were just out looking at properties here (Vegas) yesterday. For the new homes in one development we saw, they have a waiting list of 300 people for a lot that can only hold 10 new homes -- that's very common now. Housing prices are shooting up rapidly... something like 40% just in the past year. A house on our street sold in about 10 days, and many homes are selling in 1-2 days. We left Los Angeles partly to get away from the overpriced housing, but apparently it followed us here. :)

sooo ... the impression I'm getting is that with a lot of hard work and determination and I could possibly achieve $2500/month within a year's time? only problem I have now (besides all the obvious programming/business problems) is that a year is cutting it close to our wedding... . *sigh* decisions decisions. :)

Thanks for all the input everybody! ( and if you have any more thoughts, definately post them for me! )

- Jeremiah

I'd say 3-5 yrs to reach a stable regular income of 2500$/month and understand how you can continue to achieve that in a reliable way is a reasonable estimate. Some people will achieve that much faster, but they're probably the exception and not the rule.

The time also depends on whether you go full-time or part-time. I was always full-time, so it would have taken me a lot longer if I was only working part-time. Also, I had a teammate to do the artwork, so I didn't have to do that myself.

What is it that you really want to do? A) run an independent business, or B) make at least $2500 a month.

If you just want a stable income, then you're probably better off with a normal job.

If you want the freedom to do whatever you like, then you may have to learn to live with a little less money. Of course, if you play your cards right, this option will result in more money in the long term. But it takes a while to learn how to play your cards :).

I have a friend who always complains about his job, and how he wishes to be a full-time shareware author too. So then I ask him, why don't you become one? But my income is less than his, and apparently that isn't worth it to him. I suppose you have to make that decision too.

Apart from you can do it or not, why not also think cutting expenses?

I live in Portugal and I can live with $700 a month and actually have a nice life, while I'm not telling you to move here (heck no :)) maybe moving to a cheaper place to live and cutting some expenses would bring your target down for the first couple of years while your business grows and reaches the level you want ($2.500/month) so you can resume your 'normal' life where you want.

Just an idea thou.

Bruno

A house on our street sold in about 10 days, and many homes are selling in 1-2 days. We left Los Angeles partly to get away from the overpriced housing, but apparently it followed us here.
I think once interest rates start going up, prices will drop again for a couple of years. We just sold our house (and bought a new one) - it seemed like every third house in our neighborhood had a "for sale" sign up. Everybody's taking advantage of the low interest rates to upgrade to the best house they think they'll be able to afford. And since about every third house was a 'starter home' for someone (including us), it resulted in a mass exodus.

Which for ME means the prospect of being a full-time indie ain't gonna happen for a while. My life isn't "right-sized" enough.

Originally posted by BSousa
I live in Portugal and I can live with $700 a month and actually have a nice life, while I'm not telling you to move here (heck no :)) maybe moving to a cheaper place to live and cutting some expenses would bring your target down for the first couple of years while your business grows and reaches the level you want ($2.500/month) so you can resume your 'normal' life where you want.


$2500/month was enough for me and my wife when it was just the two of us living in an apartment. By myself I could have lived on maybe $1500/month. The cost of living in California is high though, so we could have lived more cheaply elsewhere. Today with two kids and a 2400 sq ft house, our basic personal expenses are around $5000/month, and that's after all our business expenses are paid. Our daughter's preschool alone is about 10% of that.

It's all relative though. When starting a new business it's often easier to reduce costs, but as a business matures it may be easier to increase revenue.

Author Robert Kiyosaki (Rich Dad, Poor Dad) says you need three plans: a plan to be secure, a plan to be comfortable, and a plan to be rich. When I first encountered this idea, I didn't have any of these. It took me about a year to achieve what I felt was a basic level of income security (where I could keep a roof over my head and not starve), then a few more years to move through various degrees of increasing comfort (big house, daughter in preschool, cable TV, gardener, nanny, going out whenever I want, etc). Right now I'd say I'm at the high end of the comfort stage and working on the being rich part.

This is somewhat off-topic, but perhaps not.

It is amazing to me how you can sell the same game for years and years... OK, so maybe there are improvements here and there, but still, every time you make a sale, it is a new customer that you are selling to. Over the years, you end up selling to many many customers. Selling games is not really a repeat business. You can sell different games to a customer but not the same game.

The math of big numbers is always amazing to me. :)

I also find the long-term sales aspect interesting. And it makes me wonder how I can get all the people who will eventually buy a game to do so right now... instead of spread out over years. :)

That's easy!

In practice there are many ways to do it, but here are two free suggestions.

1) You hire a cameraman and three seventeen year old famous female pop singers to dress in sexy gladiator outfits and make a commercial to promote your site which you then run on all the major television networks and before all major movies.

2) Build a high power laser and use it to carve your URL into the surface of the light side of the moon.

You won't find this kind of quality advice in those e-myth books.

Thanks for that quality advice, Steve. I think making too many laser games has possibly fried some of your brain cells. :eek:

He was KIDDING? Darn. I'll cancel the laser-etching order then. But do I have to send the singers in the gladiator costumes home?

Originally posted by Coyote
But do I have to send the singers in the gladiator costumes home?

No you can send them over here. And, keep the gladiator costumes. ;)

Svero said:
"Build a high power laser and use it to carve your URL into the surface of the light side of the moon. "

Dexterity said:
"Thanks for that quality advice, Steve. I think making too many laser games has possibly fried some of your brain cells."

---

Actually, I vaguely remember reading something about some company wanting to put logos and stuff up in the sky with the use of satellites (and lasers)?

Imagine seeing your URL up there right next to coca-cola's. Off course yours is spelled wrong, because it uses the cheaper russian satellites. And then when people punch in the wrong URL it goes to some smart warez site sponsored by all the wrong people.

Zoinks, I better go and reserve some more website names. Just in case...

Come to think of it:
www.dexterty.com
Now, where shall I direct that one too?

:)

I am joking, I am joking...

Originally posted by svero
2) Build a high power laser and use it to carve your URL into the surface of the light side of the moon.

Someone's been watching that awesome cartoon "The Tick" from few years back... sweet.

Actually I've never seen "the tick" but I suppose the idea is not all that original.

Actually Brian.... there is a company proposing to actually DO that (put an advertisement on the moon)... read it in MSN news not too long ago.

*shakes his head* some marketing peopel go too far.

Hi,

I dont want to sound negative, but I have seen a lot of people
tried to be an indie who dont reach further than some hundreds dollars a year. Earning $30.000,- a year is not impossible, but if you already ever reach that point, it will take you at least several years. Or you have to be the 1:1000 persons exception who makes a bestseller with his first game.

The route I follow is working 40u a week for my boss (windows+web applications), and make games in my free time. That way I have a pretty stable income, but also chances with game development, although it is very hard to make games only in the weekends/evenings (my health suffers!).
I am convinced that if I could work fulltime on my games, I'd have more chance to succeed (quicker) with my games. But the risk is just too big at the moment. Maybe within several years, the situation has changed, but I dont count on it.
Also, if you want to rent money for a house, the bank wants assurance. They wont accept your games income as assurancy, unless you can prove you are stable for at least several years.
Not after 1 year anyway.

I do not expect miracles, though I am pretty serious about making games, but it would be almost undoable for me to earn about the same income with indie game development as with my daily job. It's intersting for me to see where I will be in several years if I can make some more titles.

I'd suggest not to give up your dream of making commercial games, but not to expect chances are big you can reach stability with it within one year anyway.

Just my 2 cents
Martin

I've met a lot of business owners who make less money working for themselves than they would working at a job... no doubt about that. But I can't recall anyone specifically who was happier working at that job or even anyone who regretted their decision.

When you start a business, keep in mind that you can make less money but still live the same lifestyle. For one you'll get a lot more tax deductions, so you can keep more of the money you do earn, and that's often more significant than the benefits you lose by quitting your job. It's been suggested by many financial planners that most people should at least start a part-time home-based business since it will allow them to deduct many more purchases and save money on their taxes. From an IRS standpoint, the business just has to try to make a profit, but it doesn't have to actually succeed.

With the wildly fluctuating software / IT job market the last few years, I've read a few articles on dealing with unemployment (which I have fortunately not had to deal with for more than about six weeks, though I've had way more employers the last five years than I'd like...), and there's a couple of things they've mentioned:

* One of the best things you can have when unemployed is a side business you can put more time into, and perhaps turn into a full-time endeavor.

* One of the WORST times to start a new business is while you are unemployed.

Assuming those bits of advice are both true, I guess folks can draw their own conclusions.

If you have an attitude that you will fail, you will undoubtably fail and I really wouldnt bother starting anything... you need the will and determination, and you need a plan, and Im pretty sure 99% of all attempts that have all these ingrediants... when factoring tax benefits (in north america at least)... will outweigh a pretty decent full time job... if you are a manager or something and pull a 100k(can) a year or more, then no, starting your own business will not earn you that much money upfront...

it was suggested you start part time, and I think thats the best way... and why we, in the software industry, are much luckier than people in the retail industry... retail is succeed or fail... and takes capital up front to start...

software CAN be done in spare time, while still making respectable income, and can succeed or fail with very little financial impact... but if it does succeed, you already are making money, since you will have very few startup debts... webhosting, licenced software... thats about all you NEED... and your time obviously...

but to be wealthy, takes time, or extreme luck, so lets stick with time :)

I have similar experiences as both Steves, 2 years into full time it feels like it has been school all over again. Now I'm finally starting to grasp what kind of products to make and how to get them out to people. However, I will probably say the same in a few years time .. :)

You need to have a lot of slack in the beginning. It is probably ok to aim for $2500, but to count on it might be a mistake.

Originally posted by Kai-Peter
I have similar experiences as both Steves, 2 years into full time it feels like it has been school all over again. Now I'm finally starting to grasp what kind of products to make and how to get them out to people. However, I will probably say the same in a few years time .. :)


Yes, you will. ;)

I'm currently in a similar situation as the original poster's. The differences: I am not getting married, er, anymore, and so I don't really need to worry about when I can be making decent money to support a family or pay my bills. Like some people, I will be living with my parents still so it is cheaper and easier.

I am in grad school, working part time at the university's help desk, and trying to work on a game in my spare time. I figure that right now, what I need to do is set some actual goals for myself. Currently I don't have anything specific to strive for. "Starting my business" and "Making the game" are too vague and clearly show that I need to work on my game plan. My short term goal is to determine what goals I need to set. Recursive, I know. B-)

http://www.dexterity.com/articles/planning.htm is something I will definitely be rereading now that it seems all the more relevant.

If anybody is interested, I will be starting a weekly "blog" on my business startup endeavor. It will have my plans and goals in order for me to make a successful business in a year (I know a year is short, but I honestly dont care how many people say a year is not long enough - I still think I can do it). I will blog about my current projects, future plans, my decisions on how to handle the business, and the business's status. It could be helpful to see a weekly snapshot of my business - what worked, what didnt work - and maybe be a learning guide for future indie game developers. Not sure anybody would be interested in reading about all that, but if you are just let me know and I'll post the link. It will be up in 2-3 weeks.

- Jeremiah

Look Jeremiah,

The whole community wasn't able to turn you back in your decision. ;)
You were asking question but looks like already had the final decision.

What to say here? - You are welcome in our hell and good luck! :D

I would be interested in reading about your endeavors. I hope to keep a log myself when I finally get crackin'.

Reaching 2500$/month within the first year?
With only one game?

heheheh seems impossible to me :)

It will be one year this september that I'll be on shareware even if I am fulltime only from february. To me, even reach a STABLE 1000$/month seems a success now.

I see no way I could reach 2500$ within september. Maybe because I'm making mostly original games and not puzzle/arcade clones? :D

@Jack

I think it's possible for you.

There's quite a few boxing enthusiast websites, so it wouldn't be too hard to find your target market for UBM. I'd start at www.maxboxing.com and go from there. Read the forum and pay attention to the other boxing sites the members post. The people there are very fanatical boxing fans. You could offer to give away your game as a prize for contests or be an official sponsor for some of those websites.

I think it would help a lot if UBM had real player names for the boxers, but I still think it could appeal to those hardcore boxing fans. Tell Terin to check out www.maxboxing.com and other similar sites. :)

If you want to be a little more adventurous, find an up and coming or veteran boxer who's respected in the boxing community, but is still relatively unknown to the masses. Ask if you can slap his name on your package. For example, "Winky Wright's Universal Boxing Manager" :) A lot of those guys are still looking for their big break, so they'd be thrilled to have their name on a video game even if it doesn't pay them a lot (or at all). I'm not saying having a guy like Winky Wright as your cover boy would make you sell millions instantly, but it'd definitely give your game name recognition in the boxing community, which is your target audience anyway.

Even though we're Indies, don't be afraid to do big or daring things. :)

Tell Terin to check out www.maxboxing.com and other similar sites.
Thanks for the link :) I'll check those on my own, I didn't pay Terin for full marketing service, only for the PR (and I can say that was really worth it)
In effect I was moving towards this direction, I've already submitted my site to some links. Maybe I'll even register a website only for UBM (don't know yet if it is a good thing or not).
Having a boxer sponsor my game would be nice, even if I think it will be quite difficult :p
But as you are saying, trying cost nothing ;)