Hi,

I'd like to introduce myself. My name is John and I've been a software engineer (in various commercial and defence companies) for around twenty years. Through much of this time I have also been an avid gamer. Over the last several years, I've taken a bit of an interest in the process and production of entertainment software, while at the same time feeling more and more of a desire to forge my own future by working for myself.

The situation I currently find myself in prevents me from starting my own business, and unfortunately earning any income from sources other than my own employer. I am on a secondment to the US (from Australia) and the terms of my visa prevent this.

So... what I plan to do is to work in my spare time developing some games, and when I find myself able to start my indie games business, I will do so.

I have been thinking about what to work on first. It strikes me that it's probably best to stick to smaller, simpler games at first in order to get a decent starting point. I've read some of the articles on Dexterity's site and they seem to indicate that it's better to take smaller firmer steps, rather than huge risky leaps, at least in the first stages.

Now I've been thinking of starting out with some arcade style games. It shouldn't take too long to get each game together, and I could package five or ten of them into a single product. Providing a variety of games should make it more marketable too.

I was wondering about the legal ramifications of doing this. I know there was a lawsuit a couple of years ago by a big publisher against a number of smaller companies who sold arcade style games. Even though I am not intending to copy the old eighties games, there will be similarities. Will I be getting myself into trouble here? How did that lawsuit turn out in the end?

So... what does everyone think?

cheers

John

Hi, John. This is my first post, too :) So "welcome aboard" to both of us, I guess :D

I've been programming for years, but only recently decided to try to become a professional developer. As such, there isn't much business advice I can offer, but I CAN say this: If you want your games to stand out and succeed, be sure to make something you feel passionate about. All the technical perfection in the world won't matter one bit if your heart is not in it, and the gamers will notice. Don't work in a given genre just because it's popular, work in it because YOU like it.

Right now, I'm working on a game that's inspired by a series of games I absolutely love. They're games I not only play for hours on end, but then spend time thinking of how to improve the interface and other features. Does my passion for my subject matter guarantee success? Nope. But I believe it gives me a stronger foundation than say, the guy who starts cranking out games in genre X or Y solely because he thinks the market's "hot" right now.

Just be sure you enjoy the game you're working on at any given time. It can make all the difference between a good game, and a mediocre one.

As for the lawsuit... I'm not sure which one you're referring to, but I've seen plenty of arcade-style games that mimic older classics. As long as you don't copy the game mechanics of something so unique that it's patented, then I don't think you'll run into any legal issues. But I'm not a lawyer, so take a tablespoon of salt while reading this ;)

Welcome both. There's a sticky thread called Roll Call around these boards somewhere; add your introductions in there. One day that'll read like a valuable who's-who of the entire indie industry ;)
...be sure to make something you feel passionate about ....Not necessarily the best strategy! In here you will no doubt discover some extremely wide-ranging views on the whole business. I tried that tactic and it didn't work :P

Cas :)

Originally posted by princec
I tried that tactic and it didn't work :P

And Cas is not alone there. A most fundamental point.

Yeah, but if you don't ENJOY the games you write, why are you bothering to do it, then? Why not take a higher-paying job doing something else?

Originally posted by Coyote
Yeah, but if you don't ENJOY the games you write, why are you bothering to do it, then? Why not take a higher-paying job doing something else?

Because Ild still rather be doing games then anything else right now.

working on a crap game is heaven compared to any other job I can do!

I believe that it is important to enjoy what you do. I consider myself very fortunate because I love my work, and have done so for (nearly) all of the twenty years of my career. There are many many people in the world who cannot say that.

Having said that, even the most enjoyable profession has aspects that simply aren't fun. Spending two weeks tracking down an elusive bug when you are already a couple of weeks over the schedule, and the boss is breathing down your neck is not fun. There may be great satisfaction at the end, but the journey can be somewhat frustrating at times. That is life.

Similarly, running an indie (or any) business, even if you are making the games in the genre that you love, is not going to be all sweetness and light. I doubt that it is fun having to pay those bills when you only got half the sales you expected during the month. It's probably not a nice feeling if you have just finished a twelve month development of your fabulous game, and noone buys it. Reading the Brian Hook postmortem, I could see that they seemed to be focussed on the fun stuff, what he called 'the real work' and didn't want to be involved in the day to day business issues. But that is another thread. :-)

I believe that if I want to succeed on the independant game developer business, I have to suck it up and do some things that I might not want to do. I will have to learn things that I am not familiar with, and I may have to make decisions at some stage that I won't want to make. (I've been a project leader a couple of times and have had to discipline staff, thankfully haven't had to fire anyone yet!)

In the end I see it all as a journey. I want to build a business doing what I love. This might involve making games that are not necessarily my first choice. If I play my cards right and get a decent foundation, then I will move on to bigger and better things. In the end I would like to look back at it, the whole view from the mountain, and realise that I had a great time.

cheers

John

As far as I've heard, there is nothing illegal about cloning a game.. (Come on! there are thousands of clones out in the market..) just stay far away from their copyrighted names.

I think u guys are a little fast on crushing their illusions now.. You gotta work on a game you like and belive in, just don't forget to get others oppinions on it and improve it. And make sure there is a reasonable targetgroup before you start, and then do everything for them to like it.

Hi Holmqvist,

I did a little more research after posting my original message. The lawsuit I was thinking of was one that Hasbro initiated against a whole bunch of developers, include XtremeGames (is that right?)

From what I found, some companies settled, but I didn't find any other indications of the result of the lawsuit. XtremeGames site didn't say what the final result was.

I was interested simply because they were sueing people based on the style of the games. It seems to be the way of things at the moment. If you are a big company, sue everyone who even remotely seems to a competitor. Or else buy a twenty year old patent and find competitors to sue!

I don't want to get in the way of the steamroller. :)

cheers

John

The lawsuit you were refering to was the famous Hasbro one. You may find archives on GameDev.net about them but if you can't, ask Kevin or Dave as they may still have the articles in the site but just not link to them.

The suit originated after Hasbro got the rights to various games from (I think) Atari, and started a mass crack down on clones since they were planning (and did) released those games for modern systems. Some companies settled outright, others fought, but in the end, those rights (for the games), or the part of the company responsible for the lawsuit was bought by another company (infogrames ?) that settled the lawsuit with some constrains (basically, it would still go after you if you made a game that was almost identical, graphics wise, gameplay wise, sound wise, etc).

While the lawsuit was shun upon, truth be told, there were some games included in the lawsuit that weren't clones, I would say they were complete rip-offs of the older games, but on the other hand, there were games that just shared the same theme as the Atari games that were included as well.

ps: The lawsuit was a long time ago, I may be confused about one or two things I mentioned (like the settlement clauses) but I'm sure the overall idea is right :)

Bruno

A more pragmatic way to put what I said earlier:
Draw a Venn diagram of game ideas. In the diagram put all the game ideas you can think of. In one set put all the game ideas that you think other people will like. In another set put all the game ideas that you'd really like to do. Hopefully there will be a few ideas that appear in both sets. Then see what the competition is like in those ideas and discard the oversaturated ones. Maybe there will be an idea left - a game idea you'd like to code that you think would sell* with not very much competition.

Cas :)

* and here it would pay to find out what actually does sell. BongPig and I both write hardcore shooters, and we'll tell you for free - hardcore shooters don't sell very well.

Originally posted by BSousa
While the lawsuit was shun upon, truth be told, there were some games included in the lawsuit that weren't clones, I would say they were complete rip-offs of the older games, but on the other hand, there were games that just shared the same theme as the Atari games that were included as well.

First of all, in this country (US of A of course), anyone can sue anyone else over anything. You cannot stop people from suing you no matter what you do.

Secondly, just because someone sues you doesn't mean they will win, but -very simplistically- it does mean that you will have to either withdraw and do as they say, or fight back and win your way. Keep in mind that fighting back requires lots of money. Quite often large companies sue little ones because they can, and the legal overhead keeps the small company busy until the big company catches up or the little company goes bankrupt. Legal wars are part of the business life when your company gets important enough to be recognized.

Thirdly, you will be below the radar of any sue-friendly companies until your game start making enough money. When your revenue reaches a decent point, then you may/will attract predators. Until that point, unless companies have absolutely nothing else to do, they will not come after you even if you completely clone a mainstream game. The bottom line is even if they sue you and win, what kind of money or assets do you currently have that would interest them? You are literally nothing to them. :)

Lastly, if you are serious about the whole suing/cloning issue, you should discuss it with a lawyer who understands these matters in case you get sued and you decide to fight back. Please note that in most cases you will not immediately get sued. You'll first receive a "stop what you are doing or else..." letter at which point you can stop what you are doing. If you continue, then it will probably get bloody.

Good luck!