Are you guys familiar with the Discover Game Console? I just read an article about it in this month's PC Gamer, and then I checked out the website. http://www.discoverconsole.com/

Unlike the Phantom console, which is knee deep in controversy ( http://www.ferrago.com/story/1984
), the Discover Console might be the first viable PC game console to hit the market.

So far it sounds pretty interesting. You just drop almost any PC game (on CD) into the console and it automatically plays. On the initial boot, it does an automatic install. After that any time you insert the disc, it plays automatically like a console.

It seems like there's going to be a couple of models. A lowend model (by Apex) and highend model (by Alienware). The highend model might possibly be upgradeable.

What's your guys opinion of this?

I'll be honest, I'm pretty excited for several reasons. I've always wanted to create games that could be enjoyed playing on a TV in the living room "console" style. Also, even if the Discover console just has limited success, that's still a sizable niche market, which you could position your games toward. Plus it gives Independent/shareware developers a chance to enter the living room game space that is dominated by the big retail boys. I'll look forward to playing Cletus, Space Taxi 2, and other Indie games on my big screen TV. :)

It comes with a controller, but it also supports just about any other USB controller/joystick (as well as keyboard/mouse).

I just hope the Discover console gets off the ground OK. There's a huge mortuary of failed game console concepts.

Sounds interesting, but $399?? :eek: I'm not sure how popular it would be at that price.

I agree...

For a decent PC gaming machine with DVD player, it's a pretty good price. But if they actually want to be somewhat competitive with the regular consoles such as the Xbox and PS2, then they need to lower the price by at least $100 - 150.

I'm interested to know their target market for the lowend Apex model.

it gives Independent/shareware developers a chance to enter the living room game space that is dominated by the big retail boys.

You got it in one there. Hope it works out.

Unfortunately, yes, the flipside is that if you have a console that grants unrestricted access to indie developers, then they need to make a profit off the hardware itself which makes it real tough to compete on price. One thing they could do to make it more appealing would be to package it with a whole heap of games...

Eh? Seems like a scam to shake down venture capital firms, worthy of the dot-com era. I predict they'll go bust before they ship the first unit.

-David

@David

That's certainly true of the Phantom console. But what makes you think that's the same case with the Discover? What are the indications that make you think it's a scam?

Unlike the Phantom, they actually have a working prototype that they've publicly displayed on various major news outlets. Also, at its core, they're not trying to do anything that's really overly ambitious. The Phantom was trying to create revenue streams with pay-per-download content. So a lot of their success hinged on whether developers supported it and broadband availability among other things.

Whereas the Discover is pretty much just a standalone product (that's why it has a relatively high price) that plays pre-existing software. They're not trying to rely on half-baked e-commerce or downloadable content schemes to make money. They're not trying to collect royalties from any software. They make their money from the console unit price and nothing else (at least at this point in time). The Discover is essentially a stripped down PC in a console shaped "tower" with an auto-install and update utility. That's it.

Who knows how well the Discover will do, but I think it has little in common with those IPO Dot-Com scams from a few years back. They already have something tangible. They're just trying to sell a piece of hardware, not become a traditional console/software publisher.

The market already has what is more-or-less a PC in a console box. It's called the Xbox and you can get it at most major retail outlets for $149.

There is just no way another PC-based console is going to compete with this right now... mass-market consumers do not give one flying $#%&! who their games are coming from. Try talking Joe Blow into paying $399 for a box with no software on it that can potentially play indie games in the future... oh, and by the way it can also play all the games you already play on your PC, but in lower resolution!

Sorry, but this idea falls into the "what the hell are they thinking?" category. It ain't gonna fly. I don't think it's a scam (unlike the Phantom), it's just a bad idea. No $400 console has EVER done well. Period. The market isn't ready for one yet either, despite inflation.

Well obviously I don't see this being able to compete directly with the Xbox, PS2, and other traditional consoles. They have userbases of excess of 25 million with huge marketing campaigns and money behind them.

I see the Discover being a niche product that might be picked up by 50,000 - 100,000 over a couple years. While that's small change for big companies like EA, that's a good size market for Indies. If you read their website, they're trying to target a niche. The niche is PC gamers who want to play their PC games on a TV and console gamers who are interested PC games, but don't want to pay over $1000 for gaming rig. If you read their mission statement, they're trying to target those people not take over the console market.

I'm not saying the Discover is perfect. Like Anthony I think they need to include some games with their hardware to justify the high price. If the units are too expensive, then there's not much advantage over just buying a regular PC that you can easily upgrade.

The market already has what is more-or-less a PC in a console box. It's called the Xbox and you can get it at most major retail outlets for $149.

Uhh...maybe from a development perspective the Xbox is somewhat similar to a PC (though you still need a publisher just become a Xbox licensed 3rd party developer). But from the consumer side there's little difference between the Xbox and PS2. The Xbox is a closed format. You can't play PC games on it. You can't print anything. Heck, the Xbox doesn't have USB ports for the keyboard and mouse, which the PS2 does! So I find that a very weak analogy. When Microsoft initially announced the Xbox a lot of people thought it would be like the Discover and play any PC games. But actually MS went out of their way to prove that they were making a traditional console, not a PC in disguise.

This thing has failure written all over it.

Even if you ignore the price (which makes sense logically but is still way too high for this to ever get any mainstream use) you still have the problem that most PC games will look like crap on a TV set. There's a reason why console games use giant fonts, for example.... Imagine trying to read the text off a PC RPG from your TV set? Ugh.

Anyway, from what I've heard you may soon be hearing about something that is far more interesting coming from Sega, to be announced at E3...

Originally posted by gfm
This thing has failure written all over it.


I think gfm is being way too optimistic. This thing doesn't just have failure scrawled upon it, it has it ensconced within its DNA.

A few reasons why it will fail:

1) Insufficient financial backing to successfully launch such a product and generate consumer awareness and interest, or to survive a slow consumer adoption rate.
2) No high-profile "must have" custom content.
3) Major third-party developers such as EA will shun it because they already understand the other points listed here.
4) The vast majority of mainstream PC games require a machine made within the last few years to play current titles - given that this thing won't be anywhere near "high end" when its hatched, it will quickly be obsolete for the most attractive retail PC content. No one will buy such a device to run old PC games. No one will buy such a device to run new PC games, since it will be such a low end computer in terms of performance.
5) The fact that they will be trying to turn a profit on the hardware means that the cost will be higher than competing subsidized (by software) consoles made by firms such as Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft. This - coupled with a lack of software - will result in slow sales, which will result in even fewer software titles, which will result in Discover doing an impersonation of 3DO.
6) PC games are often designed to require a mouse, a keyboard, and close proximity to a high resolution screen. Do you really think playing C&C will be the same on a television from 10 feet away, sitting on the floor, or any such thing?

I could go on, but it's not necessary...anyone that's been around the industry for an extended period of time can see a number of areas where these guys are simply repeating mistakes that other people made long ago.

- Roulette

Well, my only oppinion on this is that if you want to play pc games on a tv, just plug the out line to your tv and play the game. And if your card doesn't support this, by a new card for 40 bucks that does.

AFAIK, Discover seems to do just about the same, ohhhh ok, it has autorun that installs on first time and runs on second, which some games already have anyway!

Hehe, tough crowd. :)

Roulette I agree with most of points, except this:

5) The fact that they will be trying to turn a profit on the hardware means that the cost will be higher than competing subsidized (by software) consoles made by firms such as Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft. This - coupled with a lack of software - will result in slow sales, which will result in even fewer software titles, which will result in Discover doing an impersonation of 3DO.


How can they have few software titles when there's really no such thing as a propriety "Discover game"? So unless the PC game industry just implodes, they won't have a shortage of games. Whether the Discover will be able to run Doom 4 or Half Life 3 several years from now is another story...

Again, you guys keep comparing it to other failed consoles that tried pushing their own propriety format. 3DO had various OEMs making hardware units, but the software was still a closed format. The software depended on the hardware. That's why when the unit was severely overpriced (~$700), there was a very slow trickle of software due to the small userbase. On the other hand, tons of PC games will continue to be made regardless of whether the Discover lives or dies.

With all that said, I'm someone who bought a Dreamcast and Sega Saturn. I guess I have an usual fixation to go for the underdog. :) Don't mind me...

Originally posted by Chris_Evans
[B
Roulette I agree with most of points, except this:

How can they have few software titles when there's really no such thing as a propriety "Discover game"? So unless the PC game industry just implodes, they won't have a shortage of games. Whether the Discover will be able to run Doom 4 or Half Life 3 several years from now is another story...
[/B]

Don't look at that point in isolation. Look at it in connection with points 2, 3, especially 4, and 6.

In other words...

No one will optimize their game's performance or design to support that particular hardware specification. What looks or plays well at 1024x768, requires a mouse, and assumes the player will be close to the screen (perhaps to see small details) will most assuredly not translate into a positive user experience if the developers give absolutely no consideration to it.
...and...
There is no mainstream market for older PC games. That's why nowadays you tend to see extremely short shelf lives for 95% of the titles. If people aren't buying those older games, then very few of them certainly are going to plunk down hundreds of dollars for a computer that only plays them.

PCs and consoles are TOTALLY different in a fundamental way. Every console is identical, and manufacturers therefore optimize for it, and know exactly what the experience will be with their software. With a PC, on the other hand, it's just a sliding slope...you technically CAN play a great many games, but most people will not bother when the experience is so poor.

Look at it like this...the Discover guys did not sit in a room and think to themselves, "Hey, we don't need any exclusive content or custom hardware!" They came at this from a position of weakness - they could not GET any such exclusive content or fund the development of custom hardware, and therefore the machine's design will simply be a "basic PC" that runs off-the-shelf games - they're doing this because they did not have a choice.

Similarly, 3DO approached the console market from a position of weakness. They also did not have the financial support to design, manufacture, and advertise the machine, while simultaneously developing their own high-profile internal titles. Hence they came up with their "Oh, we'll have all sorts of other people manufacture it, so we won't have to worry about those costs."

Look at Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft, for example. They have all lost money at one time or another on their hardware. They all make significant amounts of first-party (in-house) software to drive the hardware sales. They all do significant amounts of advertising and have huge cash hoards to ride out the first bumpy couple of years before a large base of users is established. They all have significant support from a number of third-party developers that will develop content optimized for their hardware.

Now look at Discover. As with 3DO, it has none of these things. It's great that they rationalized a way to believe that they don't need any of it, but in my opinion the approach is practically guaranteed to fail.

- Roulette

How can they have few software titles when there's really no such thing as a propriety "Discover game"?

For every title, they have to write an install script that handles the steps needed to hide & automate the installation of that particular game.

That's a monotonous, non-automatic process I imagine.

For every title, they have to write an install script that handles the steps needed to hide & automate the installation of that particular game.

That's a monotonous, non-automatic process I imagine.

I watched the video from when they demo-ed it on TechTV, the installation isn't hidden, it's just automatic. However, they did mention some games would require user input to enter serial keys and accept EULA. So I think games can be manually installed without an install script.

They're touting this auto-install feature, but I don't think it's a big deal at all since the installation is visible and you may still have to enter a serial key and accept EULA. Not much different from a PC. Installation is pretty brainless these days anyway on a PC. Just click "setup", "I agree", and "Finished". Doesn't take me more than 10-15 seconds to install most demos.

It'll probably take the Discover longer to download the new install script, than it would to just manually install the game yourself.

Originally posted by Chris_Evans
I watched the video from when they demo-ed it on TechTV, the installation isn't hidden, it's just automatic. However, they did mention some games would require user input to enter serial keys and accept EULA. So I think games can be manually installed without an install script.

They're touting this auto-install feature, but I don't think it's a big deal at all since the installation is visible and you may still have to enter a serial key and accept EULA. Not much different from a PC. Installation is pretty brainless these days anyway on a PC. Just click "setup", "I agree", and "Finished". Doesn't take me more than 10-15 seconds to install most demos.

It'll probably take the Discover longer to download the new install script, than it would to just manually install the game yourself.

So basically its nothing more than a low-end computer with a tv-out card like BSousa suggested.

I read an article that stated Microsoft loses money on every console they sell... There's not many companies that can afford to do that in the short run.

So I think games can be manually installed without an install script.

AFAIK, unless it's changed recently, that's 100% not the case. They want it to be a managed machine where you can't run anything you want.

So basically its nothing more than a low-end computer with a tv-out card like BSousa suggested.

Yeah, that's basically what I've been saying too. :) A computer with a tv-out in a console "tower". Though the Alienware model probably won't be lowend, but it will be more expensive obviously.

I read an article that stated Microsoft loses money on every console they sell... There's not many companies that can afford to do that in the short run.

I think every successful console maker has lost money on the console. It is a loss leader because it is more important to get the console into the customers' hands than it is to try to get a profit out of a machine that is useless by itself.

I think I have to agree with the other skeptics. Even assuming this console does succeed in the market, it seems unlikely that small indies will even have access to the market. From the DISCover FAQ:

Each time a new PC game is launched or about to be launched, your DISCover® console will use an Internet or phone connection to pull down the new script/s. It's a bit like the TiVo® model.


I'm sure they'll have the "scripts" (whatever those are--I couldn't find a definition for the term) for Doom III and The Sims, but are they going to have scripts for any games that aren't available in WalMart?

And besides, who wants to wait for a script to download every time you pop a new game in your console?

Actually I read somewhere that a developer can submit their game and they'll create the script. So it's not just limited to games with manufactured CDs. It's just manufactured games will automatically be included in their database.

I knew I would be in the minority, but I didn't think I would be the only one here at Dexterity who thinks it might have potential....heh. :) I feel so alone.

I'd be happy to have my games playable on it if it requires no work from me as a developer... I just don't think it's going to be a long term success for them with the business model they're proposing.

It's a PC and just like other PCs, certain games wont work on it because that is the nature of the beast. It will require developers/publishers to do compatibility testing to ensure games work and many of the larger companies wont bother because the user base is so small. Also some older games may not run either.

That may seem like an opportunity for the small developers but it is a big negative for the "console". It is a PC that is being sold as having a big installed base of PC games but when it turns out that it has the same compatibility problems as any other PC it ceases to be user friendly (which is the primary plus point of a console).

The other problem (already mentioned) is that consoles are static platforms, while PCs are evolving. A PS2 is a PS2 at the start of the console's life and at the end. Likewise a PS2 game now will run on a PS2 sold in three years time. PC software, on the other hand, is constantly evolving to keep pace with the hardware. This machine is a snap-shot of the PC hardware now..... future games will require more advanced graphics cards or OS features that the console wont have so it can't guarantee to run future games. - This is a problem that the Phantom will share. Publishers/developers wont want to be held back in order to be compatible with an old PC spec.