It seems to me, having looked at the websites of a lot of the indie's on here, there's some kind of emerging "recipe" that everyone likes to use.

1) Write a bunch of puzzle games
2) Write some more puzzle games
3) Continue creating more puzzle games.

Ok, a bit over the top :)) but you get the idea.

There are a few that ARENT creating puzzle games, but why is it that everyone seems to limit themselves to puzzle or Card games when they think of indie development?

I guess the first answer is that puzzle games are small enough that one person can create one in a reasonable amount of time. I cant help but think the puzzle game market must be VERY saturated now.

I keep thinking back to the old shareware days, thinking that essentially shareware quality (i.e. commander keen series) games should still do really quite well.

The games I'm developing in my spare time are definitely more of the form of the earlier shareware games (CK,Tyrian, Jill of the Jungle, Duke Nukem etc) than small card or puzzle games. I wonder if there is a real obvious reason I'm missing why people arent doing those types of games as well?

Ok, maybe its just too small a sample I took (just looking at random at the websites of posters here who have a website), but with a few exceptions, most of the games produced seem to tend towards small puzzle style games.

Anyone got any take on this? Am I wrong (I fully accept that I probably am).

Phil.

One of the reasons is online demand. The puzzle genre is largely ignored by retail. So players who want really good puzzle games look for them online. The puzzle genre is one of the most popular game genres on download sites. Others are card, board, and action/arcade games.

I like to describe our market not as "casual gamers" but as "hardcore players of casual games." People who really love puzzle games will spend hundreds of dollars a year on them. As soon as they finish one, they're off to download the next one. The retail side of the industry can't get to this market because our players often don't look for games in retail stores. A significant percentage of our customers are female... about 40%. For some other puzzle/card game developers it can be 65-80%.

As you mentioned, puzzle games are also cheap to develop. And indie developers have an excellent chance to be competitive in this market because puzzle games can often be developed by just 1-2 people in a matter of weeks or months.

I tend to agree...I think the Puzzle Game Boom is now fading.

Not that there aren't plenty of puzzle games that can be still be successful, of course. Just with all the emphasis on puzzle games over the past few years, I expect there are a lot of people developing a lot of indie puzzle games. A Puzzle Gold Rush of sorts.

Word games are in something of a post-rush, but they're still growing, at least in online communities. Most of the obvious word games have been tapped (at least in English), but there is still room for innovation and creativity.

Card games are still growing, but I think the large game communities like Yahoo Games will dominate the popular card games. So the indie would want to focus on non-standard or even completely new card games. Same for dice-based games.

Me...I see growth in the following areas:

* Non-combat strategy games
* Non-combat real-time games
* Multi-player games focusing on 4-6 players

On a related vein, I think multi-player puzzle games, something like 21-6's new Orbz game, could keep puzzle games popular--and profitable--for a while yet.

I think that the future of computer games is the past...the past where games were a social event, something you play with your friends on a weekend afternoon. Games are all about having fun with someone you know. :)

I'm glad to hear you say that David, both of my indie projects fall into your categories for growth.


I am reasonably sure that the market for my games is there, because well, it was there before, and I cant see that its gone away anywhere :))

I come from a background in retail development, so its always nice to hear about indie successes, its nice to once in a while to see someone put two fingers up to the retail industry, which often thinks that if a game isnt sold in a store it isnt a "game" but some sort of lower class rubbish.

Its not like retail games have never been produced that have been complete and utter crap is it! :)

Phil.

I think that puzzle games are easier to do for a lone developer because, for the most part, puzzle games don't require heavy artwork...
games like duke nukem..side scrollers, etc..require a lot of artwork

i think that there is an online demand for puzzle games...but i also think that many of us can do games in other genres that will be fun and can sell.

Star voyage was inspired by the old game by Epic Solar Winds. There are alot of similiarities in the interface you will see, but Star voyage still contains many original aspects...

well..since i'm on a roll about star voyage..cud'nt resist to paste the link lol:
http://svoyage.tripod.com/svdemo.exe

Reading this thread brings to mind an interview of M Night Shyamalan- Director of Signs, Unbreakable and Sixth Sense. He says when a lot of movies are similar the audience is "starved" and is waiting to lap up something new.

Allman, you really really want to ditch that tripod hosting. Couldnt get the file.

Anyone got any recommends for best free hosting sites with as little annoying marketing crap as possible?

Phil.

I can only speak for myself, but I produce puzzle, card, dice, and word games because those are the games that I enjoy playing. I wouldn't last a day if I had to work on a first person shooter.

Since all my games are online games, I do feel that I'm competing with yahoo game and all the other bigger free gaming sites. Sometimes I compare my journey with a ma and pa hardware store going up against the Home Depot. Sure Home Depot might be the best place to shop, but the ma and pa shop might be a bit closer to home. I try to offer my players games and features that the bigger sites do not offer. I also try to be the "head" of the community. My players like the fact that they can openly communicate with me online and even play games with me.

One day I would like to try and make a sim type game. I enjoy playing those. But at this time, I do not think that my skills nor income would support such a huge endeavor.

Originally posted by Dexterity
I like to describe our market not as "casual gamers" but as "hardcore players of casual games." People who really love puzzle games will spend hundreds of dollars a year on them. As soon as they finish one, they're off to download the next one. The retail side of the industry can't get to this market because our players often don't look for games in retail stores. A significant percentage of our customers are female... about 40%. For some other puzzle/card game developers it can be 65-80%.


Yes, there is a big market for people who play casual games heavily, and this market is not being served by the retail game companies (and when they do try to serve it, they usually just make crappy games). These tend to be older people and women, who are ignored by the retail game companies.

The shareware indie developers fill this need quite well. It's not just puzzle games but card games and arcade games and so on. There is still a lot of room for invention in these categories. There are probably hundreds of great new card games waiting to be invented.

The key is to have simple rules that yield complex play. Tetris and Bejeweled are wonderful examples of games with simple rules. A lot of game developers go wrong by making their games complicated, which really cuts off large parts of the market. The thing about puzzle and card games is that you can make up simple rules that generate complex play, and that's the type of games that are really successful.

I fully agree.
It seems the retail market is focussing on a quite small and exactly defined target audience and totally ignores everyone else.
This said, I don't think the shareware-market / online distribution market is anywhere near saturated, no matter in which game category.

For instance in many places in Europe broadband connections and flatrates are emerging (or becoming affordable) just now and tons of new potentional customers are entering the internet. Especially women and other not typically retail game customers. There is still an immense market-growth potential in my opinion.

Another advantage indies have is in the area of customer service. This is where larger companies tend to fail miserably. A great book on this that I just read this weekend is Growing a Business by Paul Hawken. In fact, I think it was Thomas (goodsol) who recommended it in the ASP newsgroups. So if that's correct, thanks, Tom! Paul points out that service is a key area where small companies commonly outperform larger ones.

Usually when I buy a retail game from a retail store, I can't return it if it's open. If I buy a game and it's no fun, or if I can't get it to run on my machine, I'm out of luck. If the game is full of bugs, all I can do is hope for a patch. I -- the customer -- must assume the risk, not the retailer, the publisher, or the developer.

But as smaller companies, we can provide much better service than this ... like an unconditional money-back guarantee, and that's in addition to a free trial version. For a customer to buy a game from us, there is no risk. If they don't like the game, they can get their money refunded, including shipping charges... no questions asked.

So it isn't just in the product area that indies can compete. We completely slaughter the larger publishers in terms of service -- hands down. As a game consumer myself, I'd much rather purchase from indie developers than larger retail ones who don't care about their customers. I buy a lot of shareware products especially for this reason. Without a doubt the service I've received from indies has been absolutely outstanding; from retail companies, utterly deplorable.

Originally posted by Dexterity
Another advantage indies have is in the area of customer service. This is where larger companies tend to fail miserably. A great book on this that I just read this weekend is Growing a Business by Paul Hawken. In fact, I think it was Thomas (goodsol) who recommended it in the ASP newsgroups. So if that's correct, thanks, Tom! Paul points out that service is a key area where small companies commonly outperform larger ones.


Yep. People respond with shock at a support request being completed in less than an hour or getting an immediate response to a query. It makes them really happy and tends to help build a loyal customer base.

I have been redesigning my website and done some surfing to see how other do it. One interesting thing that I noticed, relating to what Steve said about service.

Most retail developers sites are black and generally "designed", meaning they usually don't give out the information that I would need from them. Atleast not without a small quarrel. Then it suddenly hit me, they don't have to sell their product. Or so they think. The publisher and retailer take care of the marketing and the developer themselves just produce the game. The interesting thing is support. Most publishers offer a support service, many of them costing something to use, but still the main type of retail games support are patches, and they come through the developers site. So actually the developers are the main channel for support, without probably understanding the marketing potential inherited in that.

Contrast with direct sales sites. The site is optimized for exceptional performance as a selling device and after the sale as a support device. Most sites a white, or generally light, and use a minimum of HTLM/CSS to get things done. The most sought after information is presented easily. But the key difference is the spirit. Direct sales sites exist to make the customer happy, not to show off latest web design technologies.

I am just beginning to realize how powerful this direct sales process can get. The vista is staggering. I think we all are born under very lucky stars.

Originally posted by Dexterity
Another advantage indies have is in the area of customer service. This is where larger companies tend to fail miserably. A great book on this that I just read this weekend is Growing a Business by Paul Hawken. In fact, I think it was Thomas (goodsol) who recommended it in the ASP newsgroups. So if that's correct, thanks, Tom! Paul points out that service is a key area where small companies commonly outperform larger ones.


Hi Steve,
Yes, that was me. I read the Hawkin book years ago, before I even started my business. A very good book.

I just finished reading What Clients Love by Harry Beckwith. I highly recommend this book, along with his two earlier books, Selling the Invisible and the Invisible Touch. These are great books about service businesses. They apply directly to shareware because shareware is a service business.

One of the interesting claims Beckwith makes in his latest book is that testimonials no longer work, or don't work as well as they used to, because they have been so overused and abused. I tend to agree with him on this.

Thomas and Steve (and the rest of you),

Have you ever tought about making a book list for the benefit of the rest of us? I have gleamed maybe two dozens of good references here and read most of them. It would be interesting to have pointers to even more good material.

Both steve and thomas have contributed to the book list on the ASP site....

A sticky thread on this forum containing list of online articles / books would be really useful for all.

Is it possible to replicate the book list over at ASP. Or is it a copyright violation?

Originally posted by Dan MacDonald
Both steve and thomas have contributed to the book list on the ASP site....

Duh.. I hadn't noticed that in the members area. Thanks Dan! You are a good replacement for a pair of better eyes!

If there's some interest I could put up a book list on this site, probably in the articles section. My personal list would be pretty long though.

I doubt anyone would be offended Steve ;)

Well, you read my mind, Steve. :) Just last night I was considering posting a request to start a "recommended reading" section somewhere on the Dexterity site, so I'm obviously all for that idea.

I would love to see a list of good books on topics like motivation, marketing, productivity, sales, etc.

There are so many books in these areas that its hard to know which are worth reading.

Are 2 Dimensional platform games still sellable today through the internet or in retail, to live from it? Most people say that today 3D games are sold on the shelves. Also 2D games like Jazz Jack Rabbit and Rayman Gold 1 are sold for a very low price as budget game, but this is because those games are very famous. So for new 2D platform games there is much doubt if it is worth to develop it. If it isn't possible to sell, it isn't worth the time. But how can I figure this out on a better way?

Its a complete fallacy that 2D games (including platformers) are dead. Its just that most publishers wont publish a 2D game anymore, for fear of looking "old".

There are plenty of examples of 2D games still making pretty damn good sales.

If youre really worried, do a mixture of the two (ala Duke Nukem Manhatten or Super Smash Bros Melee).

Thats my plan at least.

.Z.

Originally posted by zoombapup
Its a complete fallacy that 2D games (including platformers) are dead. Its just that most publishers wont publish a 2D game anymore, for fear of looking "old".

There are plenty of examples of 2D games still making pretty damn good sales.

If youre really worried, do a mixture of the two (ala Duke Nukem Manhatten or Super Smash Bros Melee).

Thats my plan at least.

.Z.

Do you have good examples of (shareware) very well sold 2D platformers online.

I wasnt thinking necassarily of shareware games, simply 2D games in general.

The reasons publishers shy away are not generally valid for most "casual" users.

A good example of a non shareware game that is 2D and sells phenominally well is Worms.

Shareware games, I'm not privvy to thier sales figures.

In the end, I dont think it matters if its 2D or 3D, but its more down to the quality, if you have quality gameplay, quality graphics, professional presentation and marketing etc. Then I seriously doubt that anyone would care if its a 2D game.

If its a concern though, simply mix it, 2D and 3D CAN mix in some circumstances.

Sorry i dont have any shareware figures to back up what I say, but I do feel I'm right about why "publishers" shy away, which isnt really an issue for most of us.

.Z.