Hi, this is Nando Arce. Im a music composer interested in offering my services for anyone needing some original music for their project... Please drop me a line if you want to inquire more about what I can do...If you rather check out the music my link is on my profile so you can visit my site...oh yeah, a BIG thanks to Chris Evans for giving me the opportunity to create the music for his upcoming project...looks very promising so make SURE to support when its out! Anywhoo....hope this doesnt get deleted..I saw some other links for some royalty-free music somewhere around here so I guess this is the right forum for this post... hope to hear from you soon :)

NANDO ARCE

I highly recommend Nando. He has really done great work for our project so far.

Just don't steal him away from me. ;)

Yo Chris! thanks for the kind words.... Now we got ourselves a party in here!......whos bringin' the beer?!


NANDO

Originally posted by nando arce
Yo Chris! thanks for the kind words.... Now we got ourselves a party in here!......whos bringin' the beer?!


NANDO

I thought you were buying Nando!

By the way, just out of interest, can you fill us in on your pricing structure?

These sort of questions pop up from time to time, and now that we have you here... with the beer... maybe we could pick your brains a bit.

cheers

Well...as far as prices I do have a "standard" rate I charge per minute of finished music but as always every project calls for a little flexibility and some give and take from both parties...for instance, for someone starting out I can look at bonuses or percentage of sales. Some people like to keep it simple and rather just pay per minute and add a bonus after the game hits a certain amount of sales therefore sharing the wealth with all people involved in the success. Again, knowing more details on the game and the teams level of experience determines the cost. Bigger developers rather pay you and send you on your way, but then again, they have the dough to dish out and dont mind paying more for quality. As a composer I give my %150.00 percent to the project at hand but its a thin balance between having a love for games and being able to buy food for your family. Im sure everyone's dream in here is to be able to do both :). Let me know more details and perhaps we can talk. ....as far as the beer I always wonder if people in a forum can crack open a beer at an agreed time, together...virtual good times!

NANDO

Originally posted by nando arce
Well...as far as prices I do have a "standard" rate I charge per minute of finished music

So what's the standard rate before you start talking about compromising?

Also, I saw that you were from Nashville...does that mean that all of your music will have a twangy country sound to it?

- Roulette

LOL! actually, Im pretty embarassed to say that since I moved to Nashville (2 years ago) I have not heard a single country band! Im originally from Miami and will be relocating to San Francisco to find more work in game audio in 2005...as far as my rate I charge $250.00 per minute of original music composed specifically for your project. I am still in the process of accumulating credits so my rate is fairly low compared to most game audio guys out there, but you can bet I'll make sure you get your moneys worth...guaranteed :)

NANDO

Oh yeah...to follow up my last post. Chris Evans suggested a bundle price for indie developers in here. I think this is a fairly good idea as well since most indies are trying to put out the product and are not wanting to spend wads of cash before even a sale is made. I do agree and thats what I meant by flexible...his suggestion was prob 3-4 minutes for $250.00 or so as opposed to 250.00 for 1 minute. Although this means less money in my pocket it converts to more experience in games and a chance to collaborate on projects that can be damn exciting. I belong to G.A.N.G which is a game audio guild that has members that have been at it for years such as Tommy Tallarico, Clint Bajakian of Lucas Arts and a small groups of game Audio composers that are gonna make a pretty good name for themselves in gaming. Quite a lot of the members of the guild see indie developers as a risky proposition but I think this gap can be merged. We are both in the game business in one aspect or another and I think is not good when these are divided. C'mon...its all about the intial love for games right???...I think Im the only G.A.N.G member that has posted in these forums but Its a good thing to be part of both and see the different perspectives. When I saw Anthony Flacks games I literally begged him to do the music..for FREE..this proves there are games that are mad-exciting that are going unnoticed by the gaming community at large!!...Anyhow, Ill stop talking now. Sorry for the rant

NANDO ARCE

Originally posted by nando arce
LOL! actually, Im pretty embarassed to say that since I moved to Nashville (2 years ago) I have not heard a single country band! Im originally from Miami and will be relocating to San Francisco to find more work in game audio in 2005...as far as my rate I charge $250.00 per minute of original music composed specifically for your project. I am still in the process of accumulating credits so my rate is fairly low compared to most game audio guys out there, but you can bet I'll make sure you get your moneys worth...guaranteed :)

NANDO

NANDO,

I know that you lowered your rate in the post below; but $250.00 per minute is the highest rate I have seen thus far by quite a bit. Maybe I have just managed to find people who charge a lot less by random chance but most of them have have backgrounds in game audio and the music is exclusive?

I was just checking out your samples here ...

http://www.damselflymusic.com/SAMPLESMP3.htm

That's some very good stuff. "Toy Aisle Shove" and "The Dolphin" in particular really stand out as some of the best game music I've heard in a while.

Do you do any MIDI?

Originally posted by nando arce
I think Im the only G.A.N.G member that has posted in these forums

well, sorta.
I am a former G.A.N.G member :D

didn't really get anything useful outta joining g.a.n.g. a year ago and to tell you the truth, I don't see any benefit of joining them today. maybe things will change in a few years and I'll join again.

As far as $250 for minute of music it is very low when you compare it with you establishe composer $1000-1500 per minute fee :). You will always find someone cheaper if you dig deep enough and not to say they will all be bad but you really do get what you pay for in the long run and chances are amateur rates can produce amateur results, again, not always though.....as far as G.A.N.G it has been invaluable for me, Im sorry Michael you did not get much out of it. It definitely wont land you a job but it is a great source for reference regarding contracts and general audio questions. I find any question I ever seem to come up with has been answered before or gets answered withing 24 hours. It is years of cumulative experience readily available.Not to mention the people are great and you never know what friendshps will pay off in the long run. And finally, thanks for the comments on the music :). Oh yeah....I do MIDI as well....

Originally posted by nando arce
As far as $250 for minute of music it is very low when you compare it with you establishe composer $1000-1500 per minute fee :).

Maybe I am off base here; and please someone tell me if this is the case; but I don't see even $250.00 per minute being a viable pricing model form Independent Games.

For example; if you assume at least 3 two minute songs in your game; at $250.00 per minute; with a $20.00 price tagl you would have to due the following to pay for the music alone:

- sell 75 copies of your game
- @ 1% conversion; have 7500 downloads
- @ .05% conversio; have 15000 downloads

Keep in mind that doesn't cover sound effects and graphics?

lol! Thats why I didnt want to mention any fees in this thread. The pricing I would come up for people in these forums are different than working for a developer with backing. Some composers friends I know are pulling in $30,000-50,000 per game not including royalties, bonus or sales overseas..but then again these are some major companies. I wouldnt dream of approaching anyone here with that mentality and that is why I was trying really hard to explain that I am flexible in that regard and can accomodate depending on the size and scope of the project. Your breakdown of sales makes total sense but I would obvioulsy ask what your planning to do before I quote you a price or we come up with a deal. Im not really thinking these forums will provide me anything more than working with some cool people that are into games. The money will come one way or the other so Im not to stressed on that. But this thread itself is great since Im getting a good idea how the indie mind thinks...so Im glad I joined guys. All these points are welcomed in good spirit and one thing I can highly suggest reading is my friend Aaron Marks' book "The Complete Guide to Game Audio".. It will give you an idea on how audio composers do what they do and how they price their services (we dont pull these numbers out of thin air fellas) great reading and very informative, even if your not into audio much..check it if you get a chance...again, keep it coming people... "we are the world, we are the children... " SING IT!

NANDO ARCE

Cool! As for the indie minds; I suspect that we are all different; but I guess I tend to relate graphics and sound costs against the number of copies needed to sell to break even. Assuming the graphics and sound is sub-contracted and they are not partners. If they are partners then we all share some of the risk; and hopefuly the rewards.

For example; if you assume at least 3 two minute songs in your game; at $250.00 per minute; with a $20.00 price tagl you would have to due the following to pay for the music alone:

- sell 75 copies of your game
- @ 1% conversion; have 7500 downloads
- @ .05% conversio; have 15000 downloads


@Sean

Depends what sales expectations you have for your game. If your game sells decently, you'll clear 75 copies within a couple months if not less. If your game sells well, then you'll clear that in a couple of weeks.

Also keep in mind Indie games are on the market FAR longer than retail games. You'll have 3-5 years if not more to recoup your development costs. I'm sure in that time you'll be able to sell far more than 75 copies.

When it comes down to it, sometimes you need to spend some money to make more money. Spending a little extra on graphics or sound can enhance the production value of your game, which can increase your conversion rates and open up opportunities with various portals/publishers/distributors. By spending less on music and graphics, you may think you're saving money, but you could actually be affecting the sales potential of your game and miss out on a lot of opportunities.

Of course, it's always a risk. Your game could tank even after spending extra on graphics and sound. But personally, I like to give myself the best odds as possible for success even if it means conversely failure becomes more detrimental. If I'm going to rely on my game for income, then I need to make it the best I possibly can. If that means spending extra to increase the production value so be it. I believe if you only go half-way, you won't really get anywhere. You'll just stay in the middle. I gotta go all the way.

That's my philosophy at least, in success or ruin. :)

I second that Chris!


NANDO

Originally posted by nando arce
I second that Chris!


NANDO

@Nando

I also agree with Chris; but paying $250 per minute for sound is like paying $500.00 per model for Graphics. It is outside the budget of most independent games; unless they have very few artifacts.

Moreover, there are a lot of very talented Artists and Musicians out there charging a lot less. Please someone tell me that I am wrong; and I should be paying this kind of rates or I won't be able to get good graphics and sound?

No, you're not wrong at all my friend. I think its really a matter of finding a middleground that works for both developer and composer. I think its a matter of sitting down so to speak and say "Alright, how can we do this?" ..no rules really but youre probably are going to find composers that are trying to make a living out of music and will charge accordingly for their skills and talents and of course experience and will produce most of the time something of higher caliber than a guy who does music on the side as a hobby. No one says you have to pay any amount but it really depends how much of an investment you want to make and whether you yourself are trying to make a living out of it or not..Its all very fluid and there are no set rules but as an artist you have to put a fair price to what you can do and how much equipment and software you've invested in and make sure you dont end up losing time, money, and sleep. Bonuses, royalties, credits, are perfectly valid ways of balancing payment options...I second Chris's opinion that you really get what you pay for when it comes to art and if you think its too much theres always someone cheaper though. :)

NANDO

Nando, you're probably very good at what you do, so that's why you're able to charge such a rate. However, speaking for myself, I cannot afford your work, unfortunately. I agree with Sean that your expected rate is probably out of the reach of many of us smaller indies here. Good luck.

Remember...we can always negotiate other ways of payment....

NANDO

When I saw Anthony Flacks games I literally begged him to do the music..for FREE..


Yes, he did! His demos sounded very good, too. Unfortunately I'd just been busy recording the game music myself at the time...

Now, I can only hope that the finished music will come up to the same standard as Nando's undoubtedly fine work... must get back to mixing...

Im sure you are as good in music as you are in your game developing so you've no worries Anthony! :) YEEEEE-HAWWWW!! I cant wait for that mutant-bluegrass!

NANDO ARCE
Damselflymusic.com