For a while now I have been trying to get some VC++ programmers to help me out with my indy game, which I have been working on for about a year.

I went to Flipcode, and was flamed out like i walked into a nuclear furnace

I went to gameDev.com only to find more noobie wanna-be's than a New Kids' on the Block concert

I found a few people by posting it up on sourceForce, but those programmers turned out to be unqualified and most never even contributed 1 molecule of effort to the program.(in fact out of 20 people, only 1 person wrote some code at all)

My question is: Where can I go to find people seriously interested in helping to develop a product?
I am not a company, and there is no pay involved, which could be part of the problem. :rolleyes: But surley there is some place out there to find people willing to sharpen thier skills and get some exp??

What incentives are you offering to your prospective team members, and what are you responsible for at the moment?

I rarely bother with any of those game development boards, because most of them are just packed with kids or hobbyists who have never worked on a retail game. In that regard, these are probably the best boards you'll find.

The other big problem, which I think you are already realizing, is that most hobbyists are notoriously bad at finishing things. Note I said "finish", not "get work done". The average joe will get to the 80% mark and then stop, usually when they realize that the final 20% takes just as long as the first 80%.

On all my prior projects, whenever we hired a person without any shipped titles on their resume, we always wrote up their schedule allowing for the possibility that nothing would be finished or usable in the game. Pessimistic, but essential for ensuring you make your dates.

Before I can really give you any advice though, I need to know what your trade is. Are you a programmer looking for people to help with other tasks? Or are you an artist/designer looking for someone to code all aspects of your game? Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I'm new here and don't know many people.

Honestly, I think the answer to your plea will ultimately be middleware. But I'll wait to see what you say first :)

Programmers complain about unwilling artists...artists compain about unwilling programmers... The Ironic Universe (tm) in action. ;)

Seriously, what you might try (assuming you are an artist of some sort) is finding someone with a project that is not too dissimilar to your own with a programmer who needs what you can offer, and then work out a simple trade: what you do for what he does.

Take the time to work out milestones for both of you, so that you can keep relatively even as you work on each other's project. That will keep one side from feeling put upon by the other. In other words, don't think "protect my own interests" but rather "protect our mutual interests".

Best of luck.

-David

No, I am a VC++ programmer, and I am looking for other VC++ programmers.

I do not need art or sound, instead I need more people to help create the behind the scenes objects that are the basic engine of the thing.

Although I have been a programmer for many decades. I find the workload simply arduous. Also with only me coding, it seems hard to keep up motivation. Right now I dont even have people to bounce ideas off of.

As far as incentives to the team members, the only thing I could promise would be a cut of the profit, but anyone willing to believe that there will be a certainty of profit, is just too stupid to be what I'm looking for.:p

I am offering only the experiance of team effort, learning about MSVC++, shapening of skills, and maybe a few good laughs.:eek:

I am offering only the experiance of team effort, learning about MSVC++, shapening of skills, and maybe a few good laughs.

Well that'll be your problem then! :)

Most 'proper' programmers (me included) already have their own ideas that they know they can make work and have a feeling they can make profitable.

To convince one of those to discard their own stuff and work with you on yours, you're gonna need to sharpen up your presentation (and maybe content) a touch.

If you can't even show any confidence about profits yourself, you've got no chance of convincing anyone but a newbie to come waste your time for a bit so he can claim he worked on x.

Sorry.

I'd be very wary of working with anyone who said the work was too arduous to stay motivated, too.

Yep, I agree.

The best thing you can really do is retarget your product so that it doesn't require outside help to get it done. Then start pulling from as much existing software as possible. Windowing toolkits, audio libraries, etc. will all save you a lot of time.

Unfortunately you'll still have to grind through some stuff (scripting interface, runtime format tools, etc.). All you can do is stick with it and do a good job so you don't ever have to write it again :)

Good luck...

Originally posted by sunshine
As far as incentives to the team members, the only thing I could promise would be a cut of the profit, but anyone willing to believe that there will be a certainty of profit, is just too stupid to be what I'm looking for.:p

I am offering only the experiance of team effort, learning about MSVC++, shapening of skills, and maybe a few good laughs.:eek:

You've got a no-win situation buddy.. you want hobbyist programmers but at the same time you claim they never finish anything...

What's wrong with this picture?

Try a more productive platform such as Blitz, Python or Java. Despite what some of the old hands in here might try and convince you, writing games in C++ is unnecessarily hard. You can crank out a game in those 3 languages in just a couple of weeks.

Cas :)

Originally posted by princec
Try a more productive platform such as Blitz, Python or Java. Despite what some of the old hands in here might try and convince you, writing games in C++ is unnecessarily hard. You can crank out a game in those 3 languages in just a couple of weeks.

Cas :)

Go on! Thump that Java Bible one more time! :)

A simple game is simple to code, whether in C or in Java. Java does not come with a built in games library. However, there are lots of free games libraries for both C and Java.

A complex game takes a long time to code. Do you seriously think that if Valve had used Java Half-Life 2 would be out by now?

At any level above the trivial its not that language itself which slows down coding but technology issues - graphics, networking, getting the artists to give you decent assets...

grimreaper

Half Life 2 J2EE - The Platform Game :)

Grim, got my PM's btw?

Uh, no, I don't think I'll be switching to Java:rolleyes: I havn't admitted total defeat just yet.;)

The language is not the issue, I can code in C++ much faster due to experiance, but the game is not a simple game, it is more mid-level, and that's why it's taking longer. Besides I am trying to move to knowing how to develop business software, so this is a stepping stone.

I guess I just find it hard to believe that with all these coding group sites, every one is just a bunch of Noobs with thier head in the clouds.
(or is that pot-smoke?)

I mean from sourceForge I must have gotten 40 responses, but so far only 1 person donated any help at all, and he was a 14yr old C coder from Boston. I'm afraid to kick em off the team now, As essentially HE IS THE TEAM!

I mean , is every one in the development chats for those boards a freakin' lamer? Where do the real coders hang out?


*No offence, Present company excluded, I have found this board to be more than helpfull, presently me best source for inpiration, motivation, and info.


:)

Originally posted by sunshine
I mean , is every one in the development chats for those boards a freakin' lamer? Where do the real coders hang out?


I suppose real coders are to busy coding to be hanging out. You'll see it on those boards as well - sometimes one of them will pop out and answer some obscure technical question. But mostly they're turned off by poor grammar and the lack of respect for other peoples time.

Additionally, it's as if the good coders don't need (or like) the virtual socializing. In an open source project I was involved in, the major contributors were seldom the ones spending most time on the dedicated IRC channel.

IRC channels are evil.

Hey, I'm not thumping the Java bible, I'm thumping the RAD bible. C++ is a slow way to develop applications - period. If you need to get software out of the door on time working properly, you need a more rapid application development environment. Blitz is probably the most ideal platform when it comes to return on investment. It's the RAD tool for games development.

The benefit of "rapid" in this case is that the developer here needs to spend a certain amount of effort and loss of hair developing a game for, essentially, nothing. So it's going to have to be straightforward and quickly done to minimise the risk to the developer. Developing a game in C++ is a pretty arduous process - yes sure you can get it sort of working in maybe a similar amount of time but we're talking about the finished product here, bug-free and polished.

WRT professional programmers being a bit thin on the ground - the key word there is "professional" - I do it for a living, not a hobby. Which means I charge $1000 a day for my services, and if you can't afford it, someone else can.

Cas :)

Here is some advice I recieved from John Hsia:

"I think you should start smaller. Have projects that can be completed in 1-3 months because it's really hard to get help, and keep the people motivated on a project for more then that time. "

Keep in mind that his advice was related towards finding a artist. I think it is pretty good advice; and even though I am pretty far along with my game, it is causing me to go back and re-think my strategic direction.

I can tell you from experience that it is not easy to find people to work on a project unless they are being paid or you have a track record. Since you are already a programmer, I take John advice and build a small game. I pretty sure you are going to have enough problems finding art and sound without trying to build a large team on your first game.

Once you have a track record; people will come! Maybe!

dam Cas!

1000k per day?! How much do I owe you just for that reply?


of course you suggested moving to Java, so maybe you should be paying me;)

Once upon a time it peaked at $1500/day but the golden days are gone :)

But in all seriousness - try Blitz out as a RAD game development tool. You'll get a lot done in a very, very short space of time.

Cas :)

Sometimes you just have to shell out the cash if you want to make something happen. It's amazing how much faster things can get done this way, and if you are expecting to make that money back (a theory backed by a solid business plan, not wishes in a well), it's not necessarily a bad route to go. You can also offer a combination of x amount of money guaranteed by y date, plus z% of sales. People just won't work for free, and the type that will won't offer you the skill you need.

$1000 a day?!? $1500!?!?

And this is the same person who's all bitter cynical and complaining about poor sales, and people getting something for nothing by playing the demo, all the time. You make as much in a day as I do in a month! You don't need to charge for games...

Two months for me :)

That was a long time ago now :) Now I work for a startup, and make $200 a day before tax, with no holiday or sickness pay...

Cas :)

$200 / day ?
(fast maths in my head :
$200 * 22 days/month = $ 4400 / month
4400 / 3 = $1466)

This means that i must work 3 months to make the money you earn in one month cas. Damn!
Is there a way to work in UK and live in Greece? :)

Originally posted by sunshine
I am not a company, and there is no pay involved, which could be part of the problem. :rolleyes: But surley there is some place out there to find people willing to sharpen thier skills and get some exp??
I may just be echoing the chorus here, but are you looking for someone with experience, or are you looking for someone who wants experience? It sounds like you are looking for the former and complaining about the latter.

I feel your pain. I occasionally hit those forums, and I find them full of people with HUGE ambitions and little stick-to-it-iveness. They dissapear four months later, after they are done bragging about how incredibly earth-shattering their upcoming game will one day be. As soon as they get done learning C++, look out! I figure about 3-5% actually have the skill, talent, and ambition to succeed in game development... if they don't get too frustrated and apply their abilities elsewhere.

There are about four things I think that might help --- not just for programmers, but for any additional help:

#1 - A personal reputation. It's a lot easier to interest experienced talent if you already have had success. It's not just them wanting to ride your coattails... these folks don't want to get stuck with losers on a project any more than you do! Unfortunately, all you can do in this respect is already have shipped titles.

#2 - A kick-butt demo that proves you are serious, and gives prospective help a clear idea of what you are shooting for. Yes, this means you have to build much of the game yourself in order to get help so you don't have to do it yourself. The demo tends to inspire people much more than a few words written in a design document.

#3 - Contacts: The old Russian saying goes, "Better a hundred friends than a hundred rubles." You are going to get a lot more success going through friends-of-a-friend than just doing a cattle-call for help. Being active in the communities help, and knowing who to talk to, who might know someone else to talk to. Another thing, as DavidRM mentioned, is to help some others in THEIR projects.

#4 - Put your money where your mouth is: I had zero success finding interested artists until I offered some cash. It wasn't much cash, actually - more of a token. But it let people know I was serious. And I got a REALLY good response from many artists - many of are pretty talented if unproven. I sorted through the demos they provided and chose the artist who seemed to be the best match for the project... and I asked the rest of them if I could keep their name on file and contact them directly for future opportunities. Nobody said no :) So now I have some contacts (I hope).

Just put yourself in the shoes of the guys you want help from. You are a seasoned programmer - your time is money. Some stranger appears on the boards and says he's developing a game and needs help. Success is uncertain - it could be a big waste of your time. You've got little to nothing to gain even if it does succeed. Are you going to jump in, sign up, and commit to 20 hours a week right then and there?

If so, hey... I've got a job for you... :)

I would never consider working on a project that isnt at least one of the following:-

Something I thought of.

Something I would like to do - (rarely happens unless i thought of it)

Something that will potentially make me a fair amount of money.

Maybe you should try to make you game more sellable, then offer your co programmers a cut of whatever you make. Tell them you cannot make any promises, but that you will at least expect to make -Some- profit from it.

If you dont want to change your project to make it more commercial then perhaps you should face the fact that maybe you will have to do 100% - People want to achieve their own dreams, not other peoples.