I am new to making video games but I have been a long time gamer. I love innovative games and the indy scene. I will offer my perspective, as a gamer, of what can be improved in the independent game scene.

* Error Checking

I downloaded a game, installed it and ran the thing. The game immediately halts and a puny little message box pops up with no caption that says: "no work". What am I supposed to do? Is this a GL/DirectX problem? Version, driver, no hardware support? I just dont know.

Unforunately this is not an extreme case. Awful error checking is the norm, even in some retail games! When an error occurs the user should see an in English explaination of the problem and what they can do to fix it (upgrade libs or get a new video card, file not found, reinstall, etc).

* Lack of Polish

I am not talking about graphics. Many people that I know that play these games do not complain about amateur looking graphics. However, crucial options are sometimes missing. For example: cannot change controls, cannot adjust music volume or mute it, cannot toggle between fullscreen/windowed, etc. Adding these and other options is relatively easy.

* Order Processing

Every shareware game I have purchased has been on a whim. The trial expires and I still want to play. I may not have the luxury of doing that. Very few companies give you a license key right after you order. Sometimes it takes 12 - 48 hours, sometimes you have to wait for a dl link. You may have to uninstall the demo and then install the full version. You rarely can go from purchase to play without a long wait period.

I understand that these companies are doing these things to prevent piracy, however what about the paying customer? Shouldnt they be able to play the game immediately after purchase? From a users perspective, this is a deterent to buying shareware games.

* Difficult to Find

I understand that indy developers dont have a lot of cash to market these games, but it is often difficult to find games. Most of the time I stumble upon games through google, a link in a forum, a recommendation, a shareware site, etc. I have yet to find a high quality indy game site, most are cluttered with tetris clones, etc. Some games are so poorly marketed that they never see a good site.

The indy scene in general can do a lot better job connecting gamers with indy games.

Good points.
Does it really take 12-48 hours for most games to receive the full version? I think that most are available immediately.
* Difficult to find:
That's the hard part, let's call it marketing. Any ideas?

* Error Checking
* Lack of Polish

These are fixable by the developer and should be fixed. I think a lot of this has to do with many indies making a game for the first time outside of any formal structure (i.e. no experience). Inside the retail game industry, there are milestones with tasks that have to be met, formalized QA testing, formalized focus-testing, etc. (Not that the retail industry doesn't allow some crap to slip through any of those potential crap-blockers. :) )

* Order Processing

Partnering with a decent order processor or rolling your own should make this reasonable. But, wow, I've never heard such turnaround times are you mentioned.

* Difficult to Find

I agree with the previous poster that this is really the key problem. It's hard to get a game out there in front of a significant number of eyeballs. Retail industry has the advantage of having tons of cash. The equivalent is getting on RealGames or some other portal site, but there is so much on those sites due to their success over the past couple years, that it's hard to even stand out there.

I've got the first three bases covered but difficult to find - well, there's the rub. I'm sure there are 10,000 Alien Flux customers out there but damned if I can figure out how to lure them to my site.

Although plan B might work - lure them with other games and maybe when I've got enough quality games to get a lot of lures, AF will start selling a bit.

Cas :)

Originally posted by princec
I've got the first three bases covered but difficult to find - well, there's the rub. I'm sure there are 10,000 Alien Flux customers out there but damned if I can figure out how to lure them to my site.

Although plan B might work - lure them with other games and maybe when I've got enough quality games to get a lot of lures, AF will start selling a bit.

Cas :)

didn't you released opensource version of AF? didn't really understand why if you still wanted to sell it. why pay for a game when i can legaly download the source, compile it and play as much as i want plus have the ability to change it?

also, i totaly agree with the "Difficult to find". I just call it "Difficult to create Exposure". Indie games arn't put on shelves with other AAA titles.

Originally posted by gilzu
didn't you released opensource version of AF? didn't really understand why if you still wanted to sell it. why pay for a game when i can legaly download the source, compile it and play as much as i want plus have the ability to change it?
[...]

The source is of course without media. You can compile it, but you can't play it the way it is. You would have to rip the graphics out of the demo/full version and of course that isn't allowed (not much different than actually cracking it - so really... no harm done).

Originally posted by oNyx
The source is of course without media. You can compile it, but you can't play it the way it is. You would have to rip the graphics out of the demo/full version and of course that isn't allowed (not much different than actually cracking it - so really... no harm done).

oh, cool. now all i have left is to dl a java compiler and to rip off dweep characters and introduce the new Dweep Flux!!!! j/k

Like the others, I think exposure is the biggest problem.

This is why I think sites like Gametunnel and Diygames are so important. They're one of few sites that are completely devoted to Indie games. They give coverage to both large and small Indie games. They don't just post reviews, but also news blurbs and features on the Indie scene.

It would be nice if those sites got more exposure because in turn we'd get more exposure. I think Indie developers should do a little more to help promote them.

However, those sites aren't without their faults. I personally think their review scores are often a little too soft. The good games get scored accurately, however there are also a lot of mediocre or barely average games that also receive 4+ star scores. In fact, I'd say the majority of the scores on the site are between 3.5 - 4.5 stars. The reviews definitely need to be more critical. I understand that they don't want to compare indie games to retail games, but Indie games should still be held to higher standards than they are now. If the reviews are more critical it will force indie developers to tighten up their games more and help the games overall be acceptable to a wider audience.

Think about it, if a hardcore gamer happens to be browsing GameTunnel and reads about a game that is rated 4 stars (but should really be 2 stars). He'll play it and think "this is considered a really good Shareware game"? He'll uninstall the game and just go back to playing yet another retail combat FPS and probably won't visit Gametunnel again. I think Gametunnel and DIY will really benefit the Indie scene (and themselves ultimately) if they make a clear distinction between the good, the bad, and the great Indie games.

I'm sure there are 10,000 Alien Flux customers out there but damned if I can figure out how to lure them to my site.

I just downloaded Alien Flux and it is pretty awesome. I just can't believe you are having so much trouble selling it. Keep at it, its success will come.

Does it really take 12-48 hours for most games to receive the full version? I think that most are available immediately.

I admit that I am exaggerating a bit. I have never bought a game that has taken 48 hours to get the reg code. My point is that you should be able to play immediately after purchase. Downloading a full version or waiting for an email isnt fair to the purchaser, IMHO.

* Difficult to find:
That's the hard part, let's call it marketing. Any ideas?

Marketing is always hard. In my case, I WANT to look for new, innovative indy games and a lot of times I cannot find them. I come upon them by accident. I dont know how to make this better. But, I am thinking about it...

Indy and shareware games are an untapped market. There are too many gamers out there that would love to play these games, but they do not know they exist. Example:

I took a statistics class last semester at school. My project was collecting data about shareware games. I had some questions and asked my teacher about it in her office. We began talking about these games and she seemed somewhat interested. I told her about PopCap (http://www.popcap.com) . I thought nothing of it. By the end of the semester, she was hooked. I found out about Platypus (http://www.squashysoftware.com/platypus.php) from her! This woman is 60 years old and has 2 kids that are engineers. Definitely not your typical gamer.

Downloading a full version or waiting for an email isnt fair to the purchaser, IMHO.


Taking the computer game home after you buy it in the store isn't fair to the purchaser! You should be able to play it *immediately*!

Depending on the game, instant activation isn't always the best of ideas. If the content of the full game is sufficiently larger, filesize-wise, than the demo... requiring the customer to download the entire thing first will put many people off trying it in the first place (and will waste more of your bandwidth).

I've seen some retail games offer "demos" on dl.com that consist of you downloading several *gig* of game, and then getting an hour's trial to play it before it expires. Sure, if you buy at that point you can immediately continue playing the full game, but personally there's not much chance of me wasting my time downloading 1GB+ for just a trial of something I may hate and immediately uninstall. I'm only going through that much effort if I'm already pretty certain I'll like the game - and in that case they may as well have just sold me the download to begin with. :)

Now, if I buy something online, I do expect my confirmation email within 5 minutes or I'm likely to start complaining (Unless the site clearly told me all orders were manually processed or something). Email is fast, and I'm used to signing up for things and getting an email response in my box RIGHT AWAY. So I'm not surprised by the occasional customer complaint that they haven't gotten their email yet (Although whenever it's happened to me, they *had* gotten it by the time I got their email and replied to check on them.) None of them have ever threatened to cancel, though. Maybe I get politer customers. :)

About Gametunnel... if you want a full review, you have to pay for it. So, I'm guessing that the fairly generous reviews are based on that initial payment, since it would seem unfair to give back a scathing review to someone who just paid you $49. Of course, you do get banner advertising with this, so I may be completely out of line by saying that.

Just recently I was thinking of starting an independent game website, so I just started to randomly type in URLs, and I just happened to put in www.sharewaregamer.com... to my surprise it was not registered. So I was puzzled, and wondered if this was a bad domain since no one seems to care for it. That or shareware games is not the popular term anymore and is being replaced by the term independent/download/downloadable games? In either case I decided to register the domain.

I'll be working on that in a few months, and I plan to do reviews, banner ads, online store/affiliate program, and whatever comes my way.

I agree with many of the points raised, especially 1 gigabyte 1 hour demos. I have ADSL, but I wont bother trying out these demos..
anyway...
I agree about shareware game reviews being too kind, its a big problem.
For me, the thing that stops me buying most shareware games is just a lack of perceived value. Take a game like Gish. I tried the demo, thought it was pretty good fun, but finished it in like 5 minutes. I just dont get the impression that I'll get mroe than 40 minutes or an hours fun out of the full game, yet it will cost me $20. For that I can get a whole MONTH of playing Star Wars galaxies, and never run out of stuff to do.
I think that Indie games need to offer way more content, play options and variety if the player is to be prepared to hand over his money. I know that my best selling game (starship Tycoon) is also my deepest and most complex one. In fact I just opened a monthly check for it. hurrah!

Hmm, I wasn't aware that Russell has started charging for developers to get reviewed on Game Tunnel...? I somehow can't believe that.

Cas :)

Originally posted by princec
Hmm, I wasn't aware that Russell has started charging for developers to get reviewed on Game Tunnel...? I somehow can't believe that.

Cas :)

I think they have always charged for major as opposed to Mini reviews. It was $25 dollars last December, but he did warn about a price rise in the new year.

Alfie

PS Even though they are paid for reviews I believe they are unbiased, it's one of the reasons I used the Service twice and may do again in the future.

Charging for reviews was something I needed to do to keep going. It is very hard to keep reviews coming when I have to do them all. I have a couple of great reviewers, but they have lives too, and in the end if I'm spending 20+ hours a week on the site and earning nothing, then after a while (we're at 18 months) you have to step back and figure out what is the plan...because I have a full-time job and I have a family and I cannot spend my time on the site if it doesn't provide some reward...

That being said I'm sure you can see multiple problems and solutions within that thought. I think the biggest one is that I need more reviewers, but the reality is they come and go (other than my 2 awesome reviewers who also frequent these forums) very quickly. Each new one needs to play a few games to get a perspective of indie games, and then after no more than 2 reviews everyone (over 20 to date) has decided that reviewing games is more like work than fun. If I had more reviewers...

On the pay for review game I'll also point out that:
1- You currently cannot pay for a paid review b/c I just don't have time at the moment as I'm working 60+ hour weeks :)
2- Not all the full reviews are paid. Sort of a secret, but not really. I do some based on the affiliate program instead. For example, Chronic Logic didn't pay for the Gish review. However, I did get into an affiliate program with them, and due to the number of copies of Gish sold, I'm actually way ahead of where I would be if they had paid for the review. There are times I approach the developer and if we can work out a good affiliate piece, then I will just do the full review. My guess is about 2/3 of the full reviews done this year were done in this way. I'd prefer the money coming into the site being through advertising and affiliate sales. However it is difficult to stay viable through just those sources. :)

Anyway, I'll end the hijack, but am more than happy to explain my reasonings behind things (as always) and I know that not everyone agrees and I don't have any problem with that. :)

Thanks
cyrus_zuo, it's nice to know some of the background details.

Yeah, thanks for some insight.

I'm sure at first paid reviews and affiliate programs may seem a little suspicious, however if you go to the big news sites like Gamespot or IGN, they have "buy now" links all over their reviews as well. Also, if you'll notice the biggest advertisers aren't non-gaming companies, but actually big game companies like EA and THQ. Additionally, the big companies tend to give reviewers all kinds of freebies and sometimes even paid trips to check out the game. Even with all of that, generally the reviews tend to be unbiased and you'll still see some very critical articles.

I think the only real gray area for Gametunnel is that the reviewers benefit directly from affiliate sales (correct me if I'm wrong). I think it's possible having the affiliate program so closely related to the reviews can cause a conflict of interest. Whereas the big sites shield the reviewers from all the advertising and affiliate program dealings. I think it's a tough situation for Gametunnel since they're somewhat small and they gotta make money somehow.


The only thing I can recommend cyrus is that games where you join the affiliate program, you don't write the reviews yourself and instead pass it on to someone else on your staff. That way you can keep the business dealings and editorial content separate.

I want to reiterate, I'm not accusing you of anything. Just giving my observations. Besides, with the shareware model, a good review won't make a bad game sell (I believe you mentioned this before). So I know you're not handing out a bunch of good review scores in hopes of getting higher affiliate sales.

Though I still think a lot of your reviewers are too forgiving. I'd be nice if more reviews were more critical. I think it would help if you posted a rubric of what each star score represents (I couldn't find one). What is 3 stars? Average? What is 4 & 5 stars? Then once you have a clear standard, enforce it with all your reviewers. Believe me, it will help Indie games overall if the reviews get more critical. It will help encourage us to spend extra time and effort tightening and polishing our games.

I'm all for buying reviews. How much for a 10/10? Perhaps I could write my own review and save you the work. ;)

Originally posted by Chris_Evans
I think it's possible having the affiliate program so closely related to the reviews can cause a conflict of interest.

I definately agree with this one and it is something that concerns me, but without more reviewers I'm not sure how to work my way around it.

Something interesting on the reviews being too forgiving. I've wondered about that at different times, but think we are about on track.

One thing to note is that there have been only a handful of 10/10 games (5 star). I think the current number is 7 out of the 150+ reviews we've done. Since I do a lot of picking and choosing over what games I review I think it could be surprising that the number isn't higher. Also since I am picking the games out you can see why the numbers might be a little higher than your average review website. I'm not reviewing everything, only the ones I want to, which is going to slant the review scale higher (we run 1-10 scale, 7 is average, but the most common score is an 8, though when going to the review you'll see the 5 stars, which is just the scale divided in half, so 5 stars is a 10, 4.5 stars is a 9 and so on)

Another thing I find interesting is how high of review scores games get at sites like GameSpot. Looking at the last 10 reviews done for each system it is rare a game doesn't get a score right around a 7. For example, the last 12 Xbox games:

The Chronicles of Riddick: Escape From Butcher Bay - 9.3
Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban - 7.0
Malice - 5.0
Knight's Apprentice, Memorick's Adventures - 5.6
Shadow Ops: Red Mercury - 6.8
Psi-Ops: The Mindgate Conspiracy - 8.4
Full Spectrum Warrior - 7.7
Van Helsing - 6.9
Rallisport Challenge 2 - 9.3
Red Dead Revolver - 7.3
Metal Slug 3 - 7.5
Thief: Deadly Shadows - 8.3

Average score: 7.4

If they were working on the same 10 point scale we have and we thereby rounded things up and down appropriately we would have:

9, 7, 5, 6, 7, 8, 8, 7, 9, 7, 8, 8

A comparison with the last 12 from Game Tunnel

10, 9, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9, 6, 9, 8, 9, 7

Average score: 8.25

10 Gish [by Chronic Logic]
9 Airstrike 2 [by Divo Games]
8 Chromentum [by Alpha 72 Games]
8 Ricochet Lost Worlds [by Reflexive]
8 Storm Angel [by Loaded Studios]
8 Leylines [by Crystal Shard]
9 Flatspace [by Cornutopia]
6 Critter Match [by Silver Elixir]
9 Riftspace [by SW3D Games]
8 Seth's Puzzle Boxes [by Respawn Games]
9 Dark Archon Invasion [by BCSoft Games]
7 Dreamstars 3 [by Jaishaw]

I know this post is getting long, but I'm not quite done...the comparison here shows we do rank just above them when considering our full reviews. But remember, I hand-pick those (beyond the paid ones). Some are getting full reviews (like Storm Angel) b/c I think that the public should know about them. For the games that I don't want to play as much or write as much about, I do mini reviews. Let's look at the last 10 of those:

8, 9, 7, 8, 7, 7, 7, 8, 6, 7

Average score: 7.4

8 Universal Boxing Manager [by Winterwolves]
9 President Forever: 2004 [by HotPot Software]
7 Harvest Lines [by WildSnake Studios]
8 Rival Ball Tournament [by Longbow Digital Arts]
7 KaiJin [by Phelios]
7 Crazy Lunch [by Sigma]
7 Bricks of Egypt [by Arcade Lab]
8 Aerial Antics [Leadfoot Productions]
6 AlphaQueue [by Large Animal]
7 Chomp! Chomp! Safari [by Astromaniac]

Anyway, this may be a nightmare post to read and the point is likely lost on visitors, but the scores that we give out when you look at the general games instead of the hand-picked ones are pretty much right on spread wise with GameSpot (who also gets paid to do those reviews in many instances in addition to just geting copies of the games and all kinds of fringe benefits)

Hope that is helpful in understanding some background...

Buying reviews :) Dunno, there are moments... :)
Not likely though, there wouldn't be any point left to doing the site at that time. Honestly the shareware/affiliate model is so unpredictable that it is hard to see the website becoming a real money maker over the long term and yes it does cause a conflict of interests. That also means that it will run unpredicatably in the amount of reviews and information that goes into it as it is mostly a volunteer help effort (that often takes a lot of flack from developers...you ought to try handing out those 6's :) )

Originally posted by Chris_Evans
This is why I think sites like Gametunnel and Diygames are so important. They're one of few sites that are completely devoted to Indie games. They give coverage to both large and small Indie games. They don't just post reviews, but also news blurbs and features on the Indie scene.

Not to toot anyone's horn, my own in particular, but I think you're right. Obviously GT and DIY don't get tons of traffic, but we get enough that I'm sure that it makes at least some difference for the developers we cover, especially when you consider the lack of effort we ask developers to put forward in order to get coverage. I know of a large number of gaming media types that visit both sites on a regular basis just so they can say they keep tabs of things. Sure, most of them don't do anything about it (linking us, or the developers, for example), but at least indies have a presence that they would not have otherwise had.

Originally posted by Chris_Evans
It would be nice if those sites got more exposure because in turn we'd get more exposure. I think Indie developers should do a little more to help promote them.

I always feel bad about this. On one hand there are some indies that go out of there way to help us (DIY/GT) out to increase their coverage, but sometimes it doesn't work out for some reason (such as personal time on our end being a problem). On the other hand you have an even larger number of indies that, in my experience, won't even take 10 minutes to comment on a potential news story. I know there have been plenty of times where I've failed to return peoples emails, but it would blow your mind how often we (DIY, again, not sure about GT) are flat out ignored. Very frustrating.

Originally posted by Chris_Evans
However, those sites aren't without their faults. I personally think their review scores are often a little too soft. The good games get scored accurately, however there are also a lot of mediocre or barely average games that also receive 4+ star scores. In fact, I'd say the majority of the scores on the site are between 3.5 - 4.5 stars. The reviews definitely need to be more critical. I understand that they don't want to compare indie games to retail games, but Indie games should still be held to higher standards than they are now. If the reviews are more critical it will force indie developers to tighten up their games more and help the games overall be acceptable to a wider audience.

I completely agree with you there man, no doubt. I could list a couple dozen problems off the top of my head that DIY has, and just as many that can be found on GT (let me know if you guys care to see a breakdown of them for both sites), both sites obviously have major issues that need to be resolved if they're to evolve to the next level, something that both of us should expect given the time they've been around. Concerning reviews at DIY, there are about 10 games that one would consider 'bad' that I've tried on numerous occasions to have reviewed, but the writers usually flake out because they couldn't stand to play the game long enough to give an honest opinion of it. Everyone wants to review good games, not the bad ones. Reviewing independent games is also trickier than reviewing big name titles because you're much closer to the developers. I've received my share of hate mail from fanboys telling me I'm going to hell for giving Allied Assault, for example, a low score, but who cares? But it's a bit stranger when you have an indie developer send you an angry email because you slammed them and/or their game in a news story or review.

Since DIY started two years ago (anniversary is this August, yay) we haven't gone through too many reviewers. One left us to write for Gamespy and some other sites, and another dropped off the face of the earth. Our two current writers consist of an unemployed PhD that has been getting more and more magazine freelance work, and an investment banker that has been living through hell thanks to some other classes he's taking. I'm obviously not as educated as my counterparts, and am certainly not the writer they are, but I do deal with my 'real life' issues such as working 60 hours a week and trying to figure out where my next meal is going to come from. For my part I concentrate on news stories and tracking down new games, something that's more difficult and time consuming than it really should be.

At the end of the day I believe that GT and DIY do a solid job on the individual areas they concentrate on, but, as you said, there's room for improvement, especially in the copy editing department, yowza!

What sort of things could developers do to make your lives easier / better as indie-focused game sites?

Short of writing our own reviews of our games for you, of course ;)

Learning to write special press releases for journalists is one thing they like. The kinds of press release that are normally bandied around are just markety bullshit. Really they need a concise covernote with all of the pertinent details in and some direct links to the action.

Cas :)

Keep in touch via email is my biggest suggestion. Just drop us a line to say "hi" and tell us who you are and what you're working on. Sending us news of developments in your project or company is nice, and they don't even need to be full press released. For example, you could send an email about Void War saying something like:

"Heya Greg, just a quick note to let you know we've overhauled the graphics in Void War and have released some new screenshots showing the changes. The improved graphics represent several weeks of hard work on the part of our head artist Jean Luc over we re-examined the artistic direction of the title. The new screenshots (found here: link) show off some of the new backgrounds, a couple new ships (such as the Mach5 heavy fighter, and the Pinto kamikaze ship), and plenty of combat action. And for reference, Void War will be entering beta in late July, and we hope to have the full game available in Mid August. I've attached a new screenshot for you to check out, and, as always, here's a link to the Void War logo on a white background for you to use whenever the need may arise. Let me know if you have any questions."

If I got more emails like that I would wet myself. It gives a lot of information without the waste of a full press release, and has a number of passages I could copy and paste to do a brief news write up. Hell, it doesn't even have to be a big story, it could just be an email letting me know that work on the game continues and what the expected release date is, as well as some background info on the game itself, you know, just to let people know you haven't fallen off the face of the earth.

Thanks for the tip, Greg. I'll make sure I have something easy for you to put up when the time comes!

I want to ditto Greg on that!

Also, you can send email to just about anything at gametunnel.com and I'll get it...I tend to filter my webmaster and webmaster2 accounts heavily due to spam...so...

And I always have the submit news at the top of the site...I often put those in verbatim b/c I don't have time to condense them the way I would...though I skip over many that aren't written in a way that I can post them...just laziness on my part...or an honest apraisal of available time.

Another suggestion popped into my head...

If you want us to review game make it especially easy to get a full version for reveiw. I know that some people fear giving out a full copy for review. Honestly I don't know why...do you think our sites would be around if we were giving out that information to everyone else? I think we'd be skinned alive!!!

On my site you can submit games for review...and there is a place to put a link or keycode for the full version, but no-one ever uses it. Trading emails can be a pain. Some people also think that the demo version is info enough for a review. That may be the case, but if it is, then no-one really needs to buy your game...they should just play the demo and be satisfied that there isn't anything exciting in the game beyond the demo.

Just a thought... :)
Typically I have to approach developers to get a demo and it is often difficult to get mulitiple copies (like when I had 5 people playing just about every game out there to put together our Game of the year stuff at the end of the year). If a developer is easy to work with, I tend to focus there more, b/c it's just less hassle and emailing for me.

Oh and short to the point emails... :) they are helpful too... :)
I know you are excited about your game, but I don't have time to read 2 pages of information on every game...so...

Hope that is helpful.

Another thanks :) I was a little unsure about what was the best thing to do, but now I feel well informed.

If you want us to review game make it especially easy to get a full version for reveiw. I know that some people fear giving out a full copy for review. Honestly I don't know why...do you think our sites would be around if we were giving out that information to everyone else? I think we'd be skinned alive!!!
Heh - I know from the standpoint of a former industry pro, that fear is somewhat justified. That was one of the main vectors for pirates to get our game... and make a killing selling them a few days before the real version hit the shelves.

Still... ya gotta trust folks somehow. What's more damaging... the pirates getting a review copy a few days early, or nobody reviewing your game? Besides... testers were another source of 'leaks,' and who would want to release a game that hadn't been fully tested yet?

Big 'duh' there!

Thanks a ton for the tips! I'm going to see what I can do going forward. Just so long as I don't annoy you with too-frequent updates!