I've reached the nicest stage of game development: where your game is just about playable. Phisics and main rules are done, not to mention the graphic engine itself :). It's just placeholders and no special effects, simple demo level to show what the game is about, enemies are just about the same and all of the graphics are simple tiles in different colors with "this should be" written on them. Doesnt sound like much, but it gives you a great idea on what its about, and how great it will be will different levels and nice graphics. Call it framework or a sketch before painting.

So just like Goose Chase (my last game) (http://www.gilzu.com), I decided to hire a graphic artist to do the characters and scenery since it worked really well last time and the result were of much satisfactory. Just like before, I started to look for a part-time job to fund the project, my earnings from Goose Chase are just about enough for this project but not enough for living.

Found a nice job doing ISP support (perks include free 1.5MB internet connection :D ), and started wondering how it can be with a steady job, knowing you'll get a steady paycheck doing stuff you like. Sure, its responding to customers emails and calls, but after i get home, my brain isnt fried from trying to accomplish a programming deadline.

And here comes the dillema. I like the security of my job, the fact that i get paycheck without wearing myself out mentally, how work arrange my day (even though its in shifts) and most importantly, having a circle of friends from work. But there's no way that i'll stop writing games after experiencing the satisfaction of my last game in the pleasure of seeing this one develops.

I know some of you have dayjobs and thinking why wont I do both. I just don't know how well will I do marketting my games in the future or how ambitious will i be doing that (I must admit watching threads like the game sharing forum didn't really contribute to that). So it's either convincing myself to continue with the publishing, or just make games and try my luck with varius publishers.

I know that dayjobs and "should i go publish myself" are big issues in the indie community, It will be nice to hear your expereince with dayjobs and if/how you combined both or have suggestion which path to choose.

-Gil

Taking a pause from development can not only be a necessary break - it may be a very important experience, widen your horizons, give you new perspectives and so on. I recently took a sales job and the steady pay (and yes, unbelievably lucrative) and challenging environment is giving me lots of energy I didn't remember having.

The moral of my story is this: If you feel your current situation is bogging you down in any way you know you have to do s-o-m-e-t-h-i-n-g.

You probably know what that something is as well. If money is in the back of your head a job will solve that. Just try it out, you may even use the energy you gain from not having to worry about money to work on your game when you come home from work.

In the short term a steady job is definitely nice. Eventually it gets boring though. Rare are the careers where the room for advancement is genuinely proportional and fair to the fact that you will spend your whole life doing it. Personally I like driving towards greater and greater success, something that isn't offered in any signficant way by a 9-5 job.

For me, a day job is a means to an end (having more money). I really don't enjoy working for someone else, regardless of how cool the job might be.

For others, having a day job is the thing that keeps them grounded and focused on where they're going, and they find that it's easier to work on their own projects because they use it as a release from their paying gig.

There is no shame in liking to be employed, despite what it seems happens here some times. There is no requirement that any one here be a successful game developer to live a full and happy life. Do what's best for you. Other people's opinions about the matter aren't worth what they're printed on (assuming you print them out). Make a list of pros and cons, and if, in your mind, the pros outweigh the cons, then by all means keep working a day job.

As far as your ability to market as well, or as ambitiously, if you take eight hours out of your day for some other thing (like the day job), it will certainly affect how much time you can spend on it. But if you're just enjoying the process of making the games and putting them out there for people to buy, and you like having a day job, is it really important that your marketing efforts stay where they were? After all, if you have a day job, and you intend to keep having one, any money from games is a bonus, especially if they pay for themselves.

Well, if you still like your day job, *and* you can get indie stuff done, then I'm envious. :). I've been trying that for years, and other than some Ludum Dare compo entries and some small things, the day job takes all my steam out of me. Mind you I do make games for a living, so I'm told I can blame that. Most certainly, if you can happily do both, then do it. Ignore all us jerks dreaming of a world, saying you gotta quit your day job and make games to be happy.

In my opinion, there are so many easier ways of making a living (9-5 jobs that pay so much better) than working full time as an indie. If you can marry the two together, that's the best - the day job gives you the financial security to support your programming work. Don't forget that you still have all evenings and entire weekends to program. My difficulty with finding the time to program is not so much with the day job than with the obligations that I have when married. Perhaps if you stay single and have a day job, that's the best! Just my 2 cents.

For me, a day job is a means to an end (having more money
If you work for someone else, you'll never have any money. Well ok, you'll have *some* money, but you'll never get a direct payback on your effort.

I've had some well paid jobs in software in the past but I've never made as much as I do now by contracting and writing shareware, and I wouldn't even class myself as a runaway success - far from it in fact. I make way more now because for the first time ever, I get a direct return on how bloody hard I work.

Also agree with what someone else said in that whilst the "all you can be" limit is capped working for someone else, it's truly open-ended whilst working for yourself. If things work out amazingly, you could end up owning a ferrari. Slim chance in reality maybe, but a whole lot bigger than if you were a wage slave.

I got off the treadmill almost 3 years ago and I've never looked back, not even for a second...

Originally posted by PalmTree
If you work for someone else, you'll never have any money. Well ok, you'll have *some* money, but you'll never get a direct payback on your effort.

I'm not looking for direct payback for my efforts in my dayjob. I'm looking for a steady-secure income, a circle of friends doing the same thing and means of funding my next project(S, hopfully).

Originally posted by PalmTree
Also agree with what someone else said in that whilst the "all you can be" limit is capped working for someone else, it's truly open-ended whilst working for yourself. Slim chance in reality maybe, but a whole lot bigger than if you were a wage slave.

I know what you mean, but there are other benefits for owning a dayjob except from the wage. Its having a secure financial back if you have tough time with your products or when you just start out. It's learning a thing or two about working habits and social interaction.


Originally posted by PalmTree
If things work out amazingly, you could end up owning a ferrari.

I like porsche better :)

When I said a job was a means to an end of having money, I suppose I wasn't clear. I was meaning "to have money to fund not having a 'job'", as I truly do hate working for other people. I don't actually have a job any more. I have a client, and though it seems quite often like a job (he tells me what he wants done, and I do it), I get to do the work the way I want with hours I set, etc... I can't wait until I have customers instead of clients, though.

Its having a secure financial back if you

This is one of my points though. If this other job is in software, there is no security at all in my experience.

In fact there's way less, as working for yourself you know when you're going down the tubes right when it starts. Working for someone else they'll say "everything is fine" right up to the second you find yourself redundant and its too late to find another job before running into your own money troubles.

Maybe I'm just bitter, but the only things I consider myself to have lost since leaving full employment are a lower income and a whole tier of bullshit!

@Mark - I'm exactly the same. I make most of my money through contract work, and pure shareware development is my release valve. I'm not as keen to just have 'customers' as you as I really like 'money' better. There aren't many Indies making a living doing only that, from what I can tell.

My main thrust here is fund your indie work with contracting work instead of full-employment work. It's better in every way possible.

I've gotta agree with PalmTree on the security issue. I can think of numerous friends in various fields who have lost their jobs. I know people who have been fired, told that the business is closing down, been downsized, had their hours cut back, and for casual workers sometimes the company just never calls them again. A job isn't really secure at all, that's one of the reasons I'm working for myself. I see a job as asking someone else to take responsibility for my security, actually. But that's just my weirdo opinion. And I'm sure I'd be earning a lot more if I was in a full-time job right now.

I suppose the advantage of a job is that you get the money *now* rather than later. Sure, it's less than you could potentially earn, but you don't have to wait a year until your game is released. Perhaps that's an advantage.

My personal feeling would be, look on it as a short term thing if it's a job you're not passionate about. And if it's a job that you *are* passionate about, then, may as well pursue it with everything you've got.

Just be wary of chasing things that you're not really passionate about, or you're likely to get stuck doing it for a long time.

Originally posted by PalmTree
If you work for someone else, you'll never have any money. Well ok, you'll have *some* money, but you'll never get a direct payback on your effort.

I get a direct payback on my effort (27% +bonuses), as do most people in sales.

I know what you mean though - the absolute best part of working in sales just that simple fact that - being rewarded relative to what I put into the work. It is entirely different from sitting on my ass for eight hours and getting paid pretty much regardless of what I do. Not only do I work harder, I really enjoy working harder. Sales still is tough though.

I have a day job and it don't give me any feeling of security. In fact in emotional plan it give only stresses. It's programming though, not kind of relaxing(?) job gilzu talknig about...

In the short term a steady job is definitely nice. Eventually it gets boring though. Rare are the careers where the room for advancement is genuinely proportional and fair to the fact that you will spend your whole life doing it. Personally I like driving towards greater and greater success, something that isn't offered in any signficant way by a 9-5 job.

Very well said, Lizardsoft. This is one of the main reasons why I want to get into my own business full time. My personal ability (and desire) to grow is exponentially greater than the rate of growth I could get at any job. Also as you are implying and others have said directly -- at a job you generally don't get paid more for doing more (unless it's something like sales). What you get is a fixed salary, which is essentially the current monetary market value for the average amount of work that a person in this position is expected to get done in a fixed amount of time.

Not only that, your salary also depends on your "years of work experience." I for instance get paid a lot less than the programmer I'm working with, even though I'm doing the same work. And this is just because he has already been working for 4-5 years. The fact that I've spent 4 years before I got this job working my ass off to learn C++ (and making a complete game) doesn't count because it's not "work experience." Obviously the job world wasn't designed for people like me. :rolleyes:

An alternative way to make extra money instead of getting a job is to think like an entrepreneur. When people think they have a job, they usually become "infected" by the employee mindset, and then it can get harder and harder to break that mold and get your business off the ground. But you can also be perpetually infected by the entrepreneurial mindset. In this mindset, you never really have a job. If you became an employee with this mindset, you'd simply think of yourself as the President of your own personal services company.

One thing I found when reading books by successful entrepreneurs is that it's common for them to establish many different streams of income, not necessarily relying on a single venture for all their income. While Dexterity Software makes enough income to completely support me, it doesn't mean I can't go after other opportunities in different areas too. For example, over the past year I made an extra $9600 just from writing articles, and this barely took any time at all. So if I ever wanted too, I could probably make a decent living as a full-time writer.

Now if you have the entrepreneurial mindset, you can still be an employee, but in such a situation, you'd always be on the lookout for new opportunities. You may have your salary as your main income and also be working on several side ventures to generate extra income, and as soon as one or more of these is enough to support you, you may opt to quit your job and enjoy much greater freedom. The salary is merely one income stream among many. But most people who become employees don't have that mindset -- they rely on their salary as their sole source of income and become dependent upon it. And then they get trapped and can never seem to escape the rat race.

So my advice is that even if you get a job, don't see it as such. See it as just one of many entrepreneurial streams of income you can create, where you sell your time for profit. In such a situation then, you'd be thinking about how to increase the value of your time, so you can make that "business" ever more profitable. This is especially important for any type of work where you make a commission or bonus related to your results.

I will say that the entrepreneurial mindset can be hard to adopt, but the benefit is that it yields tremendous freedom in the long run. When you build general entrepreneurial skills, you gain the ability to do just about anything. If one business you start fails or if one game you release flops, no big deal -- you just switch your focus to a different one and keep going.

An alternative way to make extra money instead of getting a job is to think like an entrepreneur. When people think they have a job, they usually become "infected" by the employee mindset, and then it can get harder and harder to break that mold and get your business off the ground. But you can also be perpetually infected by the entrepreneurial mindset. In this mindset, you never really have a job. If you became an employee with this mindset, you'd simply think of yourself as the President of your own personal services company.

You're right Steve. After working for a little bit I'm starting to realize that if I just stay at this job without looking for new opportunities I'll slowly get assimilated by it. Another thing I can add to what you're saying is the idea of "comfort zones" which I've gotten from listening to various motivational tapes. Basically human psychology works in such a way that when we do something for a long time (doing a certain job, living in a certain town, etc), our brain gets used to it and it's very easy for us to continue doing what we have been doing. But at the same time, doing things that we are not used to (outside of that comfort zone) is very difficult. So after you've worked at a job for a long time, becoming self employed is very far outside of your comfort zone, and thus very difficult to get accustomed to.

What also applies here is the concept of habits (from The Power of Focus). Humans are creatures of habit, and it is very difficult to change habits, especially if they've been with us for a long time. A job can be thought of as a habit as well. Every day we do the same thing -- get up, drive to work, we have a routine at work, come home, get a weekly check, etc. There's a pattern to it which in turn is a habit. Breaking habits is just like coming out of your comfort zone. The longer you have a habit, the harder it is to change it.

Hehe, I just realized that all I need to do is read a whole bunch more books and I can start writing my own motivational articles. Now the first thing I need to do is start taking my own advice. :) By the way, to anyone who is reading I recommend getting The Power of Focus (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1558747524/102-1792860-0472922?v=glance) and/or any other book or audio program by Jack Canfield (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index%3Dbooks%26field-keywords%3Djack%2520canfield/102-1792860-0472922). He's in my opinion one of the best motivational speakers/writers (he co-wrote the Chicken Soup for the Soul series).

That's a good point about comfort zones. We all find ourselves stuck in one at some point. When I find myself in such a situation where I'm feeling a little too comfortable and starting to become complacent, I try to consciously do something to stir up the soup of life. This year I've been doing a lot stirring, especially when I moved from Los Angeles to Las Vegas. Another swish was joining Toastmasters International (http://www.toastmasters.org) -- the impromptu speaking part of each meeting really forces me to think on my toes. And it's great to make new friends outside the software industry.

I think joining a new club (especially one that meets at least once a week) is a great way to stir things up and get out of the comfort zone, especially a club that has nothing to do with computers. It only takes a tiny amount of discipline to get yourself to go to the first meeting as a guest and then join if you like it. But once you've joined, it takes even less effort to get yourself to go to a second meeting, then a third, and so on. I'm excited to know that if I merely continue the (already established) habit of going to those Toastmasters meetings each month, it's pretty much guaranteed that my communication skills will be vastly improved a year from now. I've only been a member for five weeks, and I've already noticed a dramatic improvement. And the dues are only $60/year.

A nice side effect of stirring things up and doing something new is that it builds confidence and enthusiasm, and those qualities will carry over into everything else you do.

The single biggest obstacle to my indie game efforts has been having the employee mindset. I find myself making more and more decisions around what is best for my employer than what is best for me. I end up working on weekends and at night, which is prime indie time. The day job has a much higher "mindshare" that it ought to, considering where I want to go and what I want to do with life.

This is the first "real" job I've had in about eight years. I did independant consulting before that (this job came about from a consulting deal). And I find that I'm working more hours for less money now, with a lot more stress, than when I was working for myself.

Having an income stream is nice. Becoming a tool is not.

The single biggest obstacle to my indie game efforts has been having the employee mindset. I find myself making more and more decisions around what is best for my employer than what is best for me. I end up working on weekends and at night, which is prime indie time. The day job has a much higher "mindshare" that it ought to, considering where I want to go and what I want to do with life.

Hence the expression: Those who don't set goals for themselves are doomed to work to achieve the goals of others.

Something that helped me was to think of work in looser, more playful terms. Imagine what it would be like to have an entrepreneurial mindset as a ten-year old. You wouldn't be thinking about school, going to college, getting a career, etc. Instead, you'd go right out and mow lawns, shovel snow, or setup a lemonade stand. It would be sloppily done and poorly planned, but things would happen. Kids are able to just jump into action so easily -- they don't endlessly ANALyze the future. I find that many adult entrepreneurs share this childlike quality. Although many do make careful plans, they're always aiming to use those plans to create and compel action, not as a substitute for action.

Sometimes we make things way too complicated for ourselves out of fear. Last night I was working on a plan for a project, and I realized it was becoming way too complicated and that the plan was actually discouraging me instead of moving me closer to completion. So I stopped and just said, what is the one limiting step to this plan that, if I take it, will pretty much automatically assure that I get the whole thing done, no matter how sloppily. And that step, while it was a big one, could be done in about 2 days work if I just focused all-out on it. So I pushed the mega-plan aside and opted to just put my energy into getting that one step done with a specific deadline, no matter how sloppily. For example, if you ultimately want to quit your job and start a new business, the quitting part is the big limiting step. If you plan and plan and plan, you'll often just paralyze yourself. But if you set a deadline to quit in a month and commit to it, then suddenly all your planning is forced to be very pragmatic and action-oriented. It can be scary, but this kind of boldness also has a lot of power, and it will draw new energy and resources to you that will allow you to achieve your goal.

It's really amazing how the universe doesn't seem to move until we do. It lies there waiting to see us commit to action, and then when we finally commit, even when we don't see how the heck we can achieve what we want, boom. The floodgates open, and the universe finally begins to cooperate. But it always requires us to make the first leap of faith.

This is one of the reasons I use the "burn the ships" phrase. Quitting a job when you don't really know how you'll support yourself seems like a bad move, especially if you have a family to support. But for some reason, things just seem to work out for those who take this bold step. And situations rarely change much for those who don't. It really comes down to a matter of whether or not you trust the universe. If you have this deep level of basic trust, you can take this bold moves and just know that everything will work out, and they will. But if you don't really have that level of trust, then the fears become real, and they can paralyze you.

The tricky part is that the best opportunities usually cannot be seen on the front side of boldness -- they can only be seen on the back side. When you work as an employee, your brain just won't register all the vast opportunities around you -- they'll be truly invisible. But as soon as you make the decision to quit, suddenly (usually within 24 hours), all these opportunities and ideas begin coming out of the woodwork. Some were there all along, and you're finally ready to see them. But many will just drop out of the sky, and if the universe was holding them at bay until you were ready for them.

I can't think of a more perfect quote to end this ramble than this one from Goethe:

Until one is committed, there is hesitancy.
the chance to draw back,
always ineffectiveness concerning all acts of initiative (and creation).
There is one elemental truth,
the ignornance of which kills countless ideas
and splendid plans---
that the moment one definitely commits oneself,
then Providence moves all.
All sorts of things occur to help one
that would never otherwise have occurred.
A whole stream of events issue from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of incidents
and meetings and material assistance
which no one could have dreamed would come his or her way.

Whatever you can do or dream, you can begin it.
Boldness has genius, power and magic in it.
Begin it now.

I know what you mean, but there are other benefits for owning a dayjob except from the wage. Its having a secure financial back if you have tough time with your products or when you just start out. It's learning a thing or two about working habits and social interaction.


i was thinking heavily about excactly the same constelation of things. since my business has not matured as much as yours i am definately keeping the dayjob for a while. anyway...

if you think of it: the moment you have more then one game making enough money to feed you, you are independent from any job as well as each of your games. that kind of income really is secure.

the tough one is the learning things about working habits. i don't have any solution for that.

the social interaction thingy is easy: be a civilized man: do things. work with greenpeace, create a non-profit organization, charity, church, sports club... and so on. build a social life in which you see yourself working on good things with other positive people. this will do it.

I know what you mean though - the absolute best part of working in sales just that simple fact that - being rewarded relative to what I put into the work. It is entirely different from sitting on my ass for eight hours and getting paid pretty much regardless of what I do. Not only do I work harder, I really enjoy working harder. Sales still is tough though.

if you see your "ass sitting" longterm, you have a career path. so i guess people who work in those big office builduings are seeing it that way. the sad fact about it: most workers get promotion about 2 times in theire entire careers. compare that to seeing your sales quotes going up month after month.

me personally i enjoy working harder as you do. and i work in sales. and yes, sales is tough. to much for me. i won't stay here forever, i want the customers+clienst model for me too.

This is one of the reasons I use the "burn the ships" phrase. Quitting a job when you don't really know how you'll support yourself seems like a bad move, especially if you have a family to support. But for some reason, things just seem to work out for those who take this bold step.

This is exactly what I did, so I'm hoping things work out. :)

One thing I've learned so far in my 23 years of existence is that even though things typically work out, sometimes you don't get what you want unless you prove you're willing to go to your breaking point. Sometimes you have to push through even if you're at the brink of disaster. It might even mean you have to sell your nice car or other luxury items.

So I believe things work out, but sometimes it's for better or worse. How well things work out is determined by how bad you want something. Luck plays a factor, but I believe you have to put yourself in the right position for luck to happen in the first place.

'Luck' is where opportunity meets preparation!

I think it's all about the beliefs you hold. Rather than saying 'what happens if ... goes wrong" try "how can I achieve ...". Your mind starts coming up with all these ideas. The universe (or reality rather) doesn't change, but your perception of it does.

Focus I think has got to do with creating pain and pleasure that will point you at achieving your goals, eg burning your bridges will force you to come up with the goods and imagining your financial independance will motivate you to carry on when things get difficult (creating a big enough why).

I also find looking at people who have already achieved these things (rolemodels) is very inspiring. That's why these forums are so great, because there are a lot of like-minded people gathered together here.

I find changing my habits the hardest. I read somewhere that it takes about 6 weeks to change one's habits and requires a conscious effort at first.

F--- it, let's just do it!
- Richard Branson
(I think it sums up the point about entrepreneur's attitudes really well)

A cool technique I learned for changing habits instantly (instead of in 21 days or 6 weeks or whatever) was from the book The Now Habit. It's called willpower leveraging. Basically, you use a small amount of willpower as leverage to do something to ensure that you'll stick to a new habit or drop an old one immediately. It will still take time for the new habit to get to autopilot, but this technique gets you into action right away.

The way it works is that you basically create some form of external leverage on yourself, such that it would be too difficult/painful to continue in the old habit or not to continue in the new habit. Here are a few examples:

1) In order to quit smoking, a Las Vegas casino manager put up a billboard with his picture on it. The text said, "If you see me smoking, I'll pay you $100,000." He succeeded in quitting.

2) If you eventually want to quit your job, write a terribly insulting letter to your boss, and give it to a trusted friend with instructions to mail it on a certain date if you haven't quit your job by then. You and your friend sign a written contract you can only buy the letter back for $5000 before that date; otherwise it is to be destroyed if you've quit and mailed if you haven't quit. I'll be happy to enter this arrangement with anyone who needs help quitting their job. :)

3) I believe it was the poker player Doyle Brunson who accepted a bet for $1 million that he couldn't lose 100 pounds in one year. He probably weighed about 300 pounds at the time. He lost the weight and won the bet.

Part of the reason willpower leveraging works is that it only takes a short burst of insanity to setup one of these propositions. But once you've taken the plunge, you're committed in a big way. It actually becomes harder not to follow through, and your focus shifts away from the difficulty of following through and onto the artificial challenge you've created for yourself.

We humans are often lazy, and sometimes it takes a hard shove to get us moving.

Part of the reason willpower leveraging works is that it only takes a short burst of insanity to setup one of these propositions. But once you've taken the plunge, you're committed in a big way. It actually becomes harder not to follow through, and your focus shifts away from the difficulty of following through and onto the artificial challenge you've created for yourself.
How do you outmaneuver your rational thinking to allow you to perform this act of insanity? Whatever I do, I have a tendency to consider all the possible outcomes and the chances of them happening. A thing like offering people a lot of money if I don't do this or that even if really want to achieve the outcome just doesn't work. Doing something that riskful/stupid, even for a good cause, just doesn't pass through my "rationality" filter.

Why does everything have to be so <censored> complicated?

How about this?

Goal: I want to do X.

How I do I get started? I start doing X.

How do I get finished? Having started, I don't stop X-ing until I'm done.

How do I succeed? I realize that I haven't failed until I give up.

What's my motivation? Who gives a <censored>? You think you're <censored> Brando or something? What? Are we method acting here?

Example:

Goal: I want to have a day job, for the benefits and security of a steady paycheck, while being an indie. To put it another way: I want to grow my indie game business while maintaining a full time job.

How do I get started? I continue to devote N hours per day/week/month to development, and M hours per day/week/month to marketing business development.

How do I get finished When I decide the income is sufficient to support me and my lifestyle, yay!

How do I succeed? My indie sideline never whithers and dies. My day job doesn't take over my life.

Etc.

-David

How do you outmaneuver your rational thinking to allow you to perform this act of insanity?Is it really rational thinking? Or just conventional thinking? Doesn't conventional thinking generate conventional results? Are people really rational thinkers, or are they mostly irrational with occasional flashes of brilliant rationality? Is it irrational to be conventional?

Whatever I do, I have a tendency to consider all the possible outcomes and the chances of them happening.Do you consider all the possible incomes too? Are you sure that the chances you calculate for each outcome are accurate, could you be misleading yourself? Are you really considering all outcomes? Have you calculated the chance of you being struck by lightning?

A thing like offering people a lot of money if I don't do this or that... Doing something that riskful/stupid, even for a good cause, just doesn't pass through my "rationality" filter.What if the amount of money was small, would you do it if you only had to give $5, $10? At what figure does it become irrational?

Perhaps you need to practice doing irrational things? Start with something small, deliberately wear odd socks one day. If that works out okay, try something more irrational, and keep going until you're convinced that irrationality doesn't have to always be bad. At the very least, it should generate plenty of stories you can tell your friends about - assuming they don't send you to an insane asylum first :p


Please take this post in context though, ie as advice from a hypocrite in this area :) Talking to you about it helps me too.

Is it really rational thinking? Or just conventional thinking? Doesn't conventional thinking generate conventional results? Are people really rational thinkers, or are they mostly irrational with occasional flashes of brilliant rationality? Is it irrational to be conventional?
I believe some people are more rational than others, but to what a degree they're more rational probably depends on how much they depend upon convetional thinking I guess.
Hmm... I have ponder this =)

Do you consider all the possible incomes too? Are you sure that the chances you calculate for each outcome are accurate, could you be misleading yourself? Are you really considering all outcomes? Have you calculated the chance of you being struck by lightning?
They are not accurate because I subconsciously alter them in my favour but I still consider them accurate enough. Or more like a guideline maybe. And yes, I do consider being struck by lightning when applicable. E.g if there's a thunder and I'm inside an old house, I might avoid washing my hands if I suspect the waterpipes are exposed so the lightning can actually reach me.
Now it probably sounds as if I walk around in constant fear, but that's not the case (at least I don't feel afraid in any way).

What if the amount of money was small, would you do it if you only had to give $5, $10? At what figure does it become irrational?

Perhaps you need to practice doing irrational things? Start with something small, deliberately wear odd socks one day. If that works out okay, try something more irrational, and keep going until you're convinced that irrationality doesn't have to always be bad. At the very least, it should generate plenty of stories you can tell your friends about - assuming they don't send you to an insane asylum first :p

Please take this post in context though, ie as advice from a hypocrite in this area :) Talking to you about it helps me too.
The amount has nothing to do with it. I never enter a bet which I'm not absolutely sure I'm going to win (which means I seldom bet). That also means that I don't understand what the excitement is in playing roulette or similar games, where you really can't affect the game that much.

Socks aren't irrational, they cover your feet =) But anyway, I'm just curious how people manage to convince themselves into doing some things which I am having difficulty picturing myself doing.

Hmmm... What does it mean to live rationally? What would a truly rational human being look like, and how would you recognize one? Does such a thing exist? Has anyone here ever met one? Does anyone here claim to be one?

Why does everything have to be so <censored> complicated?

How about this?

Goal: I want to do X.

How I do I get started? I start doing X.

How do I get finished? Having started, I don't stop X-ing until I'm done.

How do I succeed? I realize that I haven't failed until I give up.

What's my motivation? Who gives a <censored>? You think you're <censored> Brando or something? What? Are we method acting here?

Example:

Goal: I want to have a day job, for the benefits and security of a steady paycheck, while being an indie. To put it another way: I want to grow my indie game business while maintaining a full time job.

How do I get started? I continue to devote N hours per day/week/month to development, and M hours per day/week/month to marketing business development.

How do I get finished When I decide the income is sufficient to support me and my lifestyle, yay!

How do I succeed? My indie sideline never whithers and dies. My day job doesn't take over my life.

Etc.

-David


I wish I was you :D
Are things seriously that easy for you?

And, Dexterity, that 'plan' is an awesome idea... I am going to start trying that.

Hmmm... What does it mean to live rationally? What would a truly rational human being look like, and how would you recognize one? Does such a thing exist? Has anyone here ever met one? Does anyone here claim to be one?

Yup, had the same thought for years, but a little different. My parants always ask me when will i get a "Real"/"Normal" job. When I think in terms of "Normal job", I think of that normal man, coming back to work tired, unhappy and professionaly unfulfilled. I took a look everywhare and saw the common man works in the common job and commonly complain he could do better while doing nothing.

Are people with common/real jobs are happy? and much more important, can i see myself happy with it? Hell no.

sure, I got a job, but not for supporting myself, but supporting my ambition to create games. I got it to meet people and arrange my day. excuses? only time will tell.

But anyway, I'm just curious how people manage to convince themselves into doing some things which I am having difficulty picturing myself doing.

You sort of have it backwards. The picture itself is the convincing -- the mental programming if you will. You're right that people usually aren't able to convince themselves to do things they can't picture. In such situations, it isn't your reality that needs more work -- it's the pictures themselves that need work.

A simple analogy: When a ship is off course or adrift, it doesn't mean the captain should stop sailing and go to work on the ship itself. The ship is fine. What the captain needs to work on is the course that's been plotted. Only when a new course is established will the ship be able to get anywhere safely. Such it is with your mind. The pictures you feed your mind are the course you're plotting. When you feel stuck, it's because you're feeding your mind the same pictures over and over. When you're in flow, it's because you're feeding your mind exciting new pictures which take you in interested directions.

Think back to those times where you consciously made big changes in your life. Were they not preceded by a period of feeding your brain new pictures? Yet most people thing that external changes cause new mental pictures, and that's partly true of course. But the reverse is also true in an even more powerful way -- new mental pictures yield new external changes.

When you find that your life doesn't seem to be working the way you want, this normally doesn't mean that you need to work harder on your external reality. What it means is that you need to work harder on your vision -- the pictures you feed your mind. If you actually take the time to do this, you'll find it to be an incredibly powerful experience. Of course, if you always feed your mind the same pictures that are congruent with how your life already is now, then you'll merely be reinforcing your current present reality. If you want new results and capabilities, you have to load and run new software.

Albert Einstein said that imagination is more powerful than knowledge. Why did he say this? Is he correct?

I wish I was you
I'm with DavidRM too. Life's too short!

I've seen a lot of psycho-babble and stuff, but what it comes down to is this:

If you hate your day job, get another one. If you wanna work for yourself, get some work for yourself.

I really don't understand why people seem to prevaritcate so much tbh.