As of today, Betty's Beer Bar doesn't support any kind of joystick or gamepad. I'm thinking of adding it.

First of all, is joystick/gamepad support that necessary? How widespread are they? Do gamers take them for granted, or it's just a minority who uses them?

Second, what is more common? The classic analog stick or a gamepad with movement buttons?

For an arcade game like BBB, is there a difference between an analog joystick and a digital gamepad? I mean, this is not a flight sim where the actual position of the stick is meaningful, I just want to know if the player is moving "left" or "right".

They are, alas, fairly rare. These days, from what I've heard, it's really just the flight sim fans who have auxilliary input devices. Everyone else just owns a console.

That being said... I'm supporting both. Partly because I'm doing a space combat game, and such things are expected. But also because I think these input devices are *COOL* and fun to play on.

And another aspect... if your game boldly supports a gamepad, it may encourage owners of gamepads to buy your game so they can get some use out of their gamepads. Likewise, if your game is popular, it may encourage some folks to try playing it with a gamepad.

As for analog versus digital --- the biggest thing is making sure you have an appropriate (custom, user-defined) "dead zone" so they don't end up moving when they want to hold still. Newer, digital joysticks don't have quite as big a problem --- but you still need to maintain that dead zone so microscopic wiggles don't send their character running off to where they don't wanna be.

They are, alas, fairly rare. These days, from what I've heard, it's really just the flight sim fans who have auxilliary input devices.

I agree. Several print and web articles I have read in the past year have given me this impression.


I'm supporting both. Partly because I'm doing a space combat game, and such things are expected.

Yes, expected! As a space combat game fan, and the only person I know with a joystick, I wholeheartedly agree that good joystick/flightstick support is important for these games. After waiting months for Freelancer, I was very disappointed with the controls and never purchased it for this reason alone.

-Tom

Alas, alas, yes. I really wish that every PC had a gamepad attached, but for the most part, they don't. Something I consider to be hugely to the detriment of PC gaming, and quite possibly the main reason we miss out on all the "console-style" games.

Still, there are a fair few of them around all the same, even if it is only the minority. I would definitely support it, it's easy to do and sends out the right messages...

we added gamepad support to taxi 2 and snake and a few people even wrote us about it. It's probably not that necessary, given the limited use of gamepads, but they're so easy to support that you might as well toss that support in. It's a day of work at most.

I think X-Wing (when it first came out on floppy) for some stupid reason didn't support a joystick. I destroyed about 4 mice during the lifetime of that game. :)

That being said, I think it all depends on what you're going for with the design of your game. Certain games I feel would really kick with joystick support, and others don't really "warrant" it.

For me personally, I've got a perfect joystick for spaceflight-sims but it's a bit too bulky to use for say Tetris. :(

Gamepads, on the other hand, would rock in almost every situation. I should really cough up the 10 bucks for a cheap pad to test out in my game in development.

I think X-Wing (when it first came out on floppy) for some stupid reason didn't support a joystick. I destroyed about 4 mice during the lifetime of that game. :)

That being said, I think it all depends on what you're going for with the design of your game. Certain games I feel would really kick with joystick support, and others don't really "warrant" it.

For me personally, I've got a perfect joystick for spaceflight-sims but it's a bit too bulky to use for say Tetris. :(

Gamepads, on the other hand, would rock in almost every situation. I should really cough up the 10 bucks for a cheap pad to test out in my game in development.

lol, I had the same experience with both X-Wing and Tie-Fighter. Then again, I would have used a mouse again even if i had a joystick that time. Letthe user choose, I say.

For XWing I had my left hand at the joystick and my right hand at the mouse going momentarily to the keyboard - very powerful and very fine control! I felt I was Luke :)

I think they dropped support for mouse and joystick at the same time for XvT or XWA :(

Musta been XWA - I remember using the joystick for X-Wing, Tie Fighter, and XvT. I broke a joystick or two on X-Wing... finally ended up going with a nice expensive joystick (a Thrustmaster).

I really find I play Void War with a mouse & keyboard --- the fine control you get out of the mouse is tough to beat with a joystick. I was severely annoyed at Microsoft having such lousy KB+Mouse support for Mechwarrior 4 (to this day I still have hardly played it). And I happily played Freelancer with a mouse. I don't think I'd play a flight simulator without a joystick, though.

But again, I am supporting joysticks and gamepads in Void War simply because Its The Right Thing To Do. And it's easy. And - though it's not my preferred way of playing it - I have to admit it's a heck of a lot of fun playing it with a joystick or a gamepad. I could probably get pretty good at it that way.

Gamepad support would be a great addition to Betty's Beer Bar, if it improved control. Some months ago, I played and enjoyed the game -- up to a point. As the game progressed, it became frustratingly difficult to position the mugs. If memory serves, newly-poured beer would either end up one square away from where I wanted it, or in the wash. As I didn't typically have control problems in action games, I reasoned that this was something specific to the game. I uninstalled it, unhappily, because I thought it was, otherwise, a lot of fun.

@MiceHead : It has improved a lot... and you have mouse control which should be easier.

In hindsight, it's true, BBB is difficult to control (until you get the hang of it, but admittedly, I shouldn't expect that much patience from my potential customers), and letting the player control both hands independently adds another level of complexity.

It has improved a lot... and you have mouse control which should be easier.

I tried it again a moment ago, and enjoyed it. Previously, there were frustrating instances where the game misinterpreted my intentions; this time, there was none of that. The controls do seem better.

In hindsight, it's true, BBB is difficult to control (until you get the hang of it, but admittedly, I shouldn't expect that much patience from my potential customers), and letting the player control both hands independently adds another level of complexity.

The use of the dual buttons is certainly one of the game's defining aspects(!), and makes the game fun. In contrast with the frustration above, when I got Betty's left/right hands mixed up, I was chuckling, rather than cursing the game.

@Micehead : I'm glad you're happy with the controls now. You are the first person (maybe the only) that played BBB a while ago and then now - with lots of small improvements, it's difficult to really notice it for yourself.

What you say about dual buttons is a surprise, though - I suspected it was one of the main "defects" of the game.

No way, man. It's the heart of the game. Without it, it would be pretty shallow.

I'll have to check out the new version sometime...

I agree with MiceHead -- I tried BBB shortly after you initially released it, and then again when you were having reports of defects which were difficult to reproduce. I think Betty moves much more accurately now than before.

I think the use of both mouse buttons is a very good idea -- quite comfortable and usable once you get accustomed to it.

On topic, I have both a joystick and gamepad, and I almost never use either :confused: The joystick, an analog Gravis Phoenix, is awesome (even if it's an antique) for playing games like MechWarrior.

Anthony

I think the use of both mouse buttons is a very good idea -- quite comfortable and usable once you get accustomed to it.
No way, man. It's the heart of the game. Without it, it would be pretty shallow.
Hmmm. I wonder if this reflects the opinion of the typical casual gamers :confused:

Besides, most Macs have just one button and this makes it things a little harder (click and ctrl-click). To my surprise, BBB is selling quite well in Mac despite this...

Awesome choice Coyote.

I'm liking the looks of VoidWar from your website. VERY nicely lookin'!

I didn't mean to hijack the thread there with the mention of X-Wing, but I
felt it was a prime example of needing joystick support.

The other one was the star wars crappy 3d RTS. You could NOT configure the camera controls, and they were locked to (for me) an unusable keyboard configuration. I deleted the game and never played it again..;)

Anyways, in my current project I'm taking advantage of the ActionMapping support in DirectInput which gets me around having to code specific input device support. The user can plug-in whatever they want and bingo! They can use it.


But again, I am supporting joysticks and gamepads in Void War simply because Its The Right Thing To Do. And it's easy. And - though it's not my preferred way of playing it - I have to admit it's a heck of a lot of fun playing it with a joystick or a gamepad. I could probably get pretty good at it that way.

One nice thing about adding support for another input device, (one with which you're not familiar), is that you, the developer, will be at a disadvantage when testing with it. I recently added gamepad support to Inago Rage (www.dejobaan.com/inago). Having had to re-learn the controls gave me a good handle on how tough I should make the earlier, newbie levels.

Hmmm.... good point, I hadn't thought of that, MiceHead!

My game is multiplayer as well, so maybe I can also use that as a handicap :) Though right now I feel handicapped enough when all my testers gang up on me.

Yes, an excellent idea! It's quite hard to understand what new users feel with a game you have been playing for 6 months...

I make use of that too. Use the gamepad, or redefine the keys, to de-familiarise myself.

We're building a console-style game, so yes.. use of a gamepad/stick is a must! :)

We're actually treating their behaviour as digital inputs since they need to offer the same control as a keyboard would.

Alas, alas, yes. I really wish that every PC had a gamepad attached, but for the most part, they don't. Something I consider to be hugely to the detriment of PC gaming, and quite possibly the main reason we miss out on all the "console-style" games.

I think Microsoft is planning to change this by introducing some kind of standard controller for Windows and the X-Box (Next\2). It would be nice Dell and some of the other bigger computer vendors shipped two of them with all of their home and gaming models.

Nice? It would be better than nice - it could completely revitalise PC gaming. Hope it happens.

It would have a huge impact on downloadable games, I bet, and which genres do well.

It would be great news if they offered a pad compatible for Windows PCs (USB, maybe?), but it wouldn't guarantee that every (or ANY!) Windows owners would have one.

It would make a very strong argument that gam developers should support them, though --- and that could get us over the 'chicken or the egg' problem we're facing with adoption of controllers today.

If EVERY computer came with a gamepad... that would be great!! I've been thinking about adding joystick support to my games ever since I picked up a fairly nice game pad for $1 on clearance! Its easy enough that I might just do it despite the lack of use the feature would get.

I definitely think everyone should. I'm surprised that some of you don't actually (unless it's a mousey game).

Quite a lot of people DO have joypads. Just not compared to those that don't. I'd be very annoyed if a game I wanted to play didn't support them.

Of course, a joypad with every PC is something I can only dream about... game designer heaven.