Just an excuse for a rant about retail games, but hope it might provoke some discussion ( and righteous anger about how badly some games commit these sins )
Deadly Sins of Retail Games (http://www.positech.co.uk/indiegames/deadlysins.shtml)

Only +15 for crates? Nah, make it +200. I frickin' hate crates. Or rather, rooms full of crates, where you have to jump over the buggers.

As for busty babes, some chance. Most gamers are young guys, they like looking at busty babes. Although I laugh every time I see a Lara Croft type of character with massive boobs, tiny waist and ass. It's just so infantile. She'd topple over for a start.

Also, +200 for jumping puzzles and +300 for timed puzzles! Like in Splinter Cell. "Oh here we go again for the 40th time, what fun...". I think Brian Hook had something to say about this too.

+100 for console type save game slots. You should be able to save anywhere, any time. It's up to the player whether it's abused or not, not the developer.

20thCB

>SIN 1: Publisher or developer logo screens

I'm perfectly fine with it if one click skips everything. (4 logos and esc for each one - I hate it so very much)

>SIN 2: Installation directories

Agreed.

>SIN 3: End User Licence Agreement
>None of us read them. Why would we?

Yea, why would I? They are meaningless for me (I'm german). The EULA is void if I can't read it before buying the product. So please don't annoy me with accepting that stuff.

>SIN 4: Busty Babe adverts/SIN 5: Booth Babes

I just don't care about that. If they prefer that I don't look at their product then I'm fine with that.

>SIN 8: Cliches

Cliches are necessary to some extend. Often you'll need to outline the "story" in a very short manner. "They evil. You good. Save the world." is often enough. In addition a highly complex storyline with intrigues and the like is often just too much and won't do any good to the game. Cliches is just another tool. If it's the right one, it should be used.

>SIN 9 : Patches
> How on earth can you fill 274[...]

That number... you mean 24 right?

>SIN 10: 'Touched-up' Screenshots.

That's fraud imo.

>SIN 11 : Product placement

Without real products a movie/game just looks/feels less real. But I dislike those implanted products like the BMW in that James Bond movie.

>SIN 12 : Delayed UK release

The delay is often caused by doing a pal conversion. That can take some time. However, for PC games there isn't any reason for a delay (apparently).

My opinion on the girlie factor: I don't care much if it's vaguely appropriate (say, the EverQuest elfchick or something. Elves, girls, RPGs, it all fits.) Or if you are making Fetish Fighters and girls are the *point* of the game, then fine, go ahead. Hot Chicks on a game that has nothing to do with them is a bit silly. Especially if the 'hot' chick is a creepily overtanned blonde with a ridiculous Barbie-rack. Can't you at least get someone attractive? :)

Although I was commenting to my other half yesterday that cRPGs love to paste skimpily-dressed girls on the cover to lure in players, and give the girl characters within the game similar outfits... but don't actually implement mechanics for the female characters to vamp within the game. C'mon, be fair! If *you're* going to use sex as a selling mechanic, let me use it as a strategy too! :)


Why the deep resentment of post-apocalyptic settings? Is this really overdone in stupid FPSes? Since I *completely* ignore those games, I wouldn't know... but I see that and have the urge to do a Fallout cheer. :)

SIN 4: Busty Babe adverts

Yes most men like looking at women in skimpy outfits with large breasts. This does not mean they should be used to advertise a puzzle game or a game about shooting people.

...

+100 Sin Points per advert or box cover illustration with busty babes


and what about Tomb Raider? i can promise you that it would have sold about 99% less if you replaced Lara with Roger Wilco ;)


+100 points for each quest to avenge your father


actually, i rarly see that. its usually "Save your kidnapped girlfriend"

I love to use cliches. The trick is to use them knowingly, mockingly, or subversively. Games that parody their own gamey-ness. The problem is not the cliches themselves, but the fact that they are treated with such seriousness. All games are inherently ridiculous when it comes down to it.

I also love to give games a really rubbish back-story for the same reason. All game stories suck, so I like to play that up.

I also quite like to provide little or no character motivation. Nobody wants to save the princess; they just want to kill everyone and get all the treasure. It's fun to make the game's character mirror this mindset...

">SIN 3: End User Licence Agreement
>None of us read them. Why would we?

Yea, why would I? They are meaningless for me (I'm german). The EULA is void if I can't read it before buying the product. So please don't annoy me with accepting that stuff. "

Interesting law in Germany. However, I think any list that says a company protecting their work and product is stupid, is a stupid list itself. Below here is a few threads about indie gamers going after people who were pirating their games. It's thanks to things like this we indie gamers are able to have a legal ground to have them removed. If we don't say "YOU CAN NOT COPY THIS AND YOU, THE BUYER, ARE THE ONLY ONE LEGALLY ALLOWED TO INSTALL IT" then people can pirate all they want.

Yes, why would you read a legally binding contract. ;)

no im serious the bf1942 patch is 274 MB. im not kidding.

no im serious the bf1942 patch is 274 MB. im not kidding.
Yeah, but you missed the 7 the first time you say it... it says 24mb the first time and 274 every time after. :D

Interesting law in Germany.[...]

Dunno what you want to say. But it's just like that in germany. However, that "you get only one copy blabla" goes without saying. Producing copies is illegal - no need to point that out. EVERYTHING you usually write in an EULA goes without saying. One copy. No reverse engeneering etc.

But of course spyware etc isn't covered and if you do something along those lines, it's most likely against the law. And your EULA won't help you at all. It's void.

Below here is a few threads about indie gamers going after people who were pirating their games. It's thanks to things like this we indie gamers are able to have a legal ground to have them removed. If we don't say "YOU CAN NOT COPY THIS AND YOU, THE BUYER, ARE THE ONLY ONE LEGALLY ALLOWED TO INSTALL IT" then people can pirate all they want.Sorry, but that's absolutely false. You don't have to say anything at all for your work to be protected by copyright law. The lack of license terms - or even the lack of a copyright notice - does not change the fact that it's illegal to pirate copyrighted software. People cannot "pirate it all they want" simply because a game does not make you agree to some ridiculous and potentially non-binding license agreement.

Correct me if I'm wrong(Probably am) but most indie game companies give out their game/demo for free and then to get the full version you use an upgrade key or number, right?

Well, far as I understand copyright law it grant the creator the exclusive right to reproduce, prepare derivative works, distribute, perform and display the work publicly. Does giving out an upgrade key for a demo to upgrade it to a full version fall under that as illegal? The copyrighted product is free for download, it's just upgrading to all it's features that cost the money. Sounds abit fuzzy and one of the reasons I thought they added the bit into the EULA(Not the main reason though, see below).

Now I know a little about EULA and I'll explain why it is important to make people accept.

There's a belief(in some jurisdictions) unauthorized users may not be violating any software license that is created on consent by contract. By using an unauthorized copy, they do not become parties to the sales contract, and thus are not bound by the license. Only the original buyer can be found in infringement. But if the pirater is forced to agree him/herself to it, then future illegal installations can be gone after with no loop holes or wiggle room. That's why almost every company makes you accept on every install, because it binds all subsequent installations. Of course if a minor does it, I think we're all screwed since they can not enter into a contract(legally void unless confirmed, I think).

Enlighten me if I'm wrong, I'm always looking to learn. :)

all of which is totally moot unless you end up taking a hacker to court. since that never happens (the swine isp wont reveal their data, even though im sure THAT in itself is illegal).
Given that out of maybe 10,000 customers I might end up in a court battle with 1 (very unlikely) I am not prepared to make the 9,999 click some pointless legal crap just to play my game.
And my business hasnt suffered as a result. :D

There are 2 other important features of the EULA:

The disclaimer of warrenty (this software provided 'as is' etc. etc.) with the limitation of liability (in no event will we be liable for more than the moneys paid to us by the purchaser). This limits what you can be sued for in most countries (some do not allow these disclaimers, but pretty much all accept the limitation of liability, provided it is fair).

The site of jurisdiction (This contract and all disputes will be held under the jurisdiction of the courts of England and Wales) which is important if you do not want to face the possibility of fighting a court case in another country.

If someone is serious about suing you, the first thing they will have to do is show their lawyer/solicitor the EULA, and from there their legal representative will tell them to proceed/don't bother depending on the terms you have provided. A well written EULA will cause most spurious claims to fail at this point.

<This post is not to be taken as legal advice> - There you go, yet another disclaimer of warrenty :P

Current law however renders all digital and shrink-wrap licenses worth less than the paper they are printed on. Without a signed agreement between both parties there is no contract and there is no agreement. Existing copyright law is the only law that can actually be brought to bear on "offenders". The law has very, very carefully avoided even a single test case, anywhere, on the matter of shrinkwrap licensing. In fact I do recall some time ago that upon analysis of some licenses, the terms and conditions contained within were nearly all illegal under European law. In the UK even if you agree to the terms and sign something the contract is still invalid if it contains illegal or unfair terms (Act of Parliament, May(?) 2000)

Cas :)

agreed, which is exactly why i dont bother with such things. for n indie gamer selling <500 games a year, imho a EULA is a total waste of everyones time.

According to our solicitor, the act of having an 'agree' button that the user has to press is usually sufficient, as the user has made a positive action of accord (unless they are a minor). Although I'm not sure anyone has ever actually tested the validity of EULAs in a court yet.

You can also (apparently) add a clause saying that an invalid clause in the contract does not invalidate the other clauses (we used to have that in my old employment contract that had dodgy clauses such as you cannot work in the same industry or within 50 miles for 6 months after you leave)

The main reason for EULAs is probably to ensure the lawyers get plenty of work in the future :)

<Edit: Maybe the last few posts should be split off into a seperate thread covering EULA, as its detracting from the original post>

Shrink-wrapped licence agreements: the UK legal position (http://www.kevinboone.com/PF_eula.html) seemed informative.

That's a fantastic article. It ought to go in some kind of Useful Links wotsit. Shame the whole thing is pinned on case law and that it's only applicable to the UK and that it hasn't even been tested yet, but useful nonetheless.

Cas :)

"Given that out of maybe 10,000 customers I might end up in a court battle with 1 (very unlikely) I am not prepared to make the 9,999 click some pointless legal crap just to play my game."

What if that one wins the court case, and the damages and court costs exceed the profits from the other 9,999? I understand that pretty much none of us will likely ever be going to court(Unless one of us gets fairly big and has the resources to do so) but in the context of the article, those big companies DO sometimes go to court and they need all the protection they can get.

Also, another important EULA thing is that it limits the number of installations you can make. Right now, with just a copyright and no EULA I can install your game on all my friend's machines, because executing the installer isn't exactly making a copy of the program(From what I understand it, atleast). Now I'm assuming to upgrade your game to it's full features you have to get a code. Does, when you give them the code, it limit the number of machines they may use the code on? One of the big things about the EULA is that it limits all the machines you can have it on, how you can not have it on a shared network and so on. They must feel there's something iffy about copyright law's coverage of this or I doubt they'd all do it.

I understand this is all iffy to a degree, and that's my point. It's IFFY. So why leave it up to chance? Do I think any hacker is going to see this and go "Damn, I won't copy this/upload it and give it away." Nope, but I also can't see into the future and where this all may come into importance so for now, I don't think too many people are going to not install my game because they were forced to click one button.

"I don't think too many people are going to not install my game because they were forced to click one button."

agreed. but for users like me it would still wind me up. If you makie a shareware game and I downlaod the dmeo, you have maybe 30-60 seconds to catch my interest. If you want to waste 2 seconds of that on clikcing away a laod of legal bullshit, then fine, thats your call, but it instantly puts me in the frame of mind that you think im a criminal before you even let me see the menu screen.
When i go into a resturant i dont need to sign an EULA before seeing the wine list, does this mean the restaurant is being shoddy because of the chance I will sue them if im allergic to the wine?
of course not, restaurants are int he business of ensuring people have a good fun evening, they dont want to interrupt that with a load of intrusive legal crap right at the start of the vendor-customer relationship.
ditto games.
Legal bullshit DOES put people off buying your games, because it [uts them in a (slight) bad mood at the very start of playing your game, and bad imrpessions dont help make a sale.
EULAs are invented by lawyers to keep themselves in a job.

I specifically allow people to install Alien Flux on multiple machines for friends and colleagues and family, and will continue with this strategy. I like to think of it as an enlightened approach to software rights.

Cas :)

"If you makie a shareware game and I downlaod the dmeo, you have maybe 30-60 seconds to catch my interest."

Personally for me(On a 56k modem), the interest starts before I download the demo. If the website has some nice screenshots that look fun and the features look interesting. Then I download the demo and give it a few minutes to get me hooked.

"If you want to waste 2 seconds of that on clikcing away a laod of legal bullshit, then fine, thats your call, but it instantly puts me in the frame of mind that you think im a criminal before you even let me see the menu screen."

I don't think it's bullshit, however. As I said above, I don't believe copyright laws stop people from installing on as many computers as they want(EULA does). I also am not sure if copyright laws stop people from sharing the code to upgrade to full feature, which is the main point of the EULA for indie gamers I believe. Since we WANT our demos out to as many people as possible we wouldn't want to stop people from sharing the demo around. But to be able to legally give out their codes without any chance(Not that I think anyone here has the resources to do so) of being taken to court which is where the EULA comes in and protects that.

"resturant..."

But these are two different business. In a restuarant you can not sue if you did not know you were alleric to certain wines. They could NEVER have known you were alleric and it was you who ordered it, not they. You made the choice. Plus a restuarant is a private establishment, they have the rights to toss you out for anything and also have laws protecting them if you start stuff. They don't need an EULA.

The EULA should not make you feel like a criminal unless you're looking to commit a crime against them. If you aren't going to break it, then you have nothing to worry about. Plus EULAs are MUSTS for online gaming to have legal grounds to ban cheaters.

"Legal bullshit DOES put people off buying your games/EULAs are invented by lawyers to keep themselves in a job."

Most people running million dollar business got there because they are smart and know how to handle money. If this was a waste to pay lawyers to do all this, they would not. Here is a story you might have heard. When car companies find out about a fault in one of their cars and start thinking about having to recall them they find out how much money it would cost to recall them all and fix the problem and how much money they would have to pay out due to deaths/injuries in court cases. If the cost to recall them is higher then the other, they do not recall the faulty cars. Companies look at the EULA and do the same thing.
1) How many people are they going to lose, and thus how much money, due to forcing people to accept the EULA before installing.
2) How much money would it cost to go after these people and what kinda trouble might it cause if they did not have the EULA.

Also, another thing that weighs on gaming companies is that back in the 80's pirating was huge because it was a territory no one had really been to before and no one was really sure on the laws.

Let's bring up Blizzard. One of their big things going is that once you buy their game you can play it free online. Battle.net is a great selling point. If you weren't able to play for free Starcraft wouldn't likely be sold in stores anymore. In Korea, where games are pirated to Hell and back, left and right, Blizzard is a HUGE seller because you have to have a legal copy and code to play on Battle.net. There was a group of maverick programmers who tried to reverse engeneer(Or so Blizzard said, they said they didn't) a new battle.net client that would have let people pirate and play online without having a legal code. If it weren't for the EULA making them accept who knows if Blizzard wins the case. If they did lose it and this client was put out there, Blizzard would have lost millions and millions in sales as people would no longer need to buy a real copy of SC or D2 for the code.

I'll willingly click a button for every Blizzard game I buy if it means they are able to protect themselves and keep making games.

"I specifically allow people to install Alien Flux on multiple machines for friends and colleagues and family, and will continue with this strategy. I like to think of it as an enlightened approach to software rights."

It's a great way of getting your name out there. Is that the full version?

These are good points from a user-perspective, but many of your points just aren't something that can be fixed:

1) Logos are necessary. I agree that the kind you can't skip entirely with one click are annoying, but branding is incredibly important. Even if you personally really do not care or know (the latter being the more important) who made your games, then you are in a pretty small minority. These screens, while not the only solution, have become a great way to make it painfully clear what companies have published/developed the game (though not always clear who the actual developer is). Not doing this will put a company at a disadvantage, so it's not going to change anytime soon.

2) Installation folders of this sort are the standard on the Windows platform. It's what you are supposed to do, so it's what everyone does. While it's not really harmful to break this standard (unless MS requires this for MS logo certification, a point on which I'm not too clear), there's really no point in doing so since it won't give you any real competitive advantage. The only company that can actually change this silly way of storing programs is Microsoft so the sin points should go to them.

3) EULA: this is already covered in detail in this thread. Short version: excluding the EULA is a Bad Thing. Again, the sin points are not deserved.

4 and 5) Agreed, but don't think for a moment that sex appeal doesn't work.

6) Agreed strongly. Very annoying.

7) Agreed. It's mostly a problem when you can't skip and/or there isn't a text version on screen.

8) Agreed, though I want more post apocolyptic games. Too bad Fallout 3 is dead. Crates work in some environments but I too wouldn't mind seeing them gone forever.

9 and 10) Agreed

11) Sometimes product placement is humorous, other times it ruins the atmosphere.

12) I'm not sure why you are taking away sin points from delaying UK builds? Might wanna fix that :)

"I specifically allow people to install Alien Flux on multiple machines for friends and colleagues and family, and will continue with this strategy. I like to think of it as an enlightened approach to software rights."

It's a great way of getting your name out there. Is that the full version?

Yes, I specifically allow people copying the game for a few friends and such, because I think that's fair.

Cas :)

Also, another important EULA thing is that it limits the number of installations you can make. Right now, with just a copyright and no EULA I can install your game on all my friend's machines, because executing the installer isn't exactly making a copy of the programNo you cannot install a copyrighted game on all your friends' machines without the copyright holder's permission, EULA or no EULA. In this case, running the installer and allowing it to install the game's files onto multiple computers would indeed constitute copyright infringement, for the simple reason that the installer has to copy some of the game's files in order to install the game.

Getting back on topic:

1) Logo screens - Don't mind them if they can be skipped, all at once and without delay. In fact, I think logos might be important in creating an association between brand and game quality.

2) Installation directories - For the installation directory itself, this has never really bothered me, since I rarely ever change anything inside the Program Files directory. For the Start Menu, on the other hand, I do prefer that the top-level folder carry the name of the game instead of the publisher.

3) EULA - [ditto what I said elsewhere in this thread]

4) Busty babes - I tend to agree, although used sparingly I think it might work. I feel the same way about "military build" male characters.

5) Booth babes - Agreed. They present an image of immaturity and lack of professionalism.

6) Compulsory tutorials - Totally agree. A hated Black & White in part because it made me sit through that dreadful tutorial. My sister hated it as well. Nobody likes being ordered around when playing a game, and following a tutorial feels way too much like following orders.

7) Slow speech - Agreed. One of my favorite games is Twinsens Odyssey, but I felt compelled to turn off the characters voices, opting to follow the text instead. The speech was so slow that I felt I was being spoken to by one of those people who feel the need to talk down to foreigners and/or children.

8) Cliches - I tend to agree, although I wouldn't totally rule out certain cliches (approached intelligently, they might actually work).

9) Patches - Not knowing the sizes of the files being patched or the size of the modifications, I cannot really tell whether 24MB is too much or not. I do wish they would come up with a diff-type patching system (one that would also work with binaries), where the only thing you need to download are the changes.

10) Touched-up screenshots - I agree about the touched-up screenshots; It's dishonest. The screenshots without the GUI can be nice (for aesthetic reasons) if you also include some screenshots showing the GUI.

11) Product placement - I tend to agree, but I don't really mind it unless it draws attention to itself. I know I hated the use of Fed-Ex in the movie Castaway, even though it was (allegedly) not paid for by Fed-Ex.

12) Delayed UK release: Don't live in the UK, but I agree. To be honest, I'm not really a fan of internationalization, although I understand it's often necessary. I'd rather play the original game than a translated one, and I'd like to get my hands on it as soon as possible.

I agree with you there about "internationalization"! I much prefer to see the games in their native language - I'd really rather learn some other languages! Here in Europe we're much more understanding that people in other countries actually speak other languages :) (Although, less so in England...)

Cas :)

I read these posts with interest but I still feel EULAs are a waste of effort and peoples time. I will NEVER include a EULA in my games. It goes without saying that you cant copy the full version and pirate it, but a simple line of text in the readme should be enough if you really need it written down. Do you REALLY think that someone could win a court case saying "I bought the game for £20 and thought it was fine to give free copies to everyone I know?"
Like I say, with 99.99% of my customers they arent going to exploit any lack of EULA, so Ill take their money happy in the knowledge that I dont make them click acceptance of legal crap. the last 0.01% are going to screw me anyway, EULA or now EULA. :mad:

Im strongly oppsoed to the legal bullshit that is infesting the games industry. By day, Im one of the main programmers on a 'triple A' title, But my name will not appear as any of the random names in the game. why? Because I refuse to sign the two page legal crap that the publisher demands which would give them the right to "use my likeness in all media in all territories on all platforms existing or heretofo invented"
That kind of legal crap is wrecking innovation in all media. I have already been told that the word 'asteroid' can't be used in a game because of 'legal reasons' (an asteroid is a real thing, how the fck can it be patented???)
How long before someone patents or copyrights the term 'powerup' or the idea of controlling a game with the mouse. This kind of lawyer-obsessed crap doesnt go on to combat piracy or to protect companies, its done purely and simply to keep lawyers in fat salaries.
so there! ;) :rolleyes:

Here in Europe we're much more understanding that people in other countries actually speak other languages :) (Although, less so in England...)


Still enough so that it's hard to find game testing jobs on offer that don't require you to be fluent in at least one other European language.

- still underemployed, and not fluent in French :)

"No you cannot install a copyrighted game on all your friends' machines without the copyright holder's permission, EULA or no EULA."

This is copyright law: Copyright laws grant the creator the exclusive right to reproduce, prepare derivative works, distribute, perform and display the work publicly.

Maybe what you say calls under distribute. Ambiguity in law is a bad thing. The EULA is attempting to remove ambiguity.

"a simple line of text in the readme should be enough if you really need it written down."

And people should know coffee is hot, but McD is down millions because they did not have it in writing. There's a difference between 'should be' and 'is enough'. I agree with you that it should be, but the law is a strange beast sometimes with plenty of room to wiggle.

"Because I refuse to sign the two page legal crap that the publisher demands which would give them the right to "use my likeness in all media in all territories on all platforms existing or heretofo invented""

Look at this link(below) and story, and you'll see why they are demanding people to sign things in writing and that it is not 'legal crap'.
To sum it up, for my point, in Spawn there's a character named Tony Twist. Rumor is that he was named after a hockey player. Well, said hockey player is sueing McFarlane for 15 MILLION dollars because he 'profitted' without promission to use his name. On Friday a jury awarded Tony that 15 million dollars. They are appealing the verdict and will probably win. Before this Tony sued him in 2000 and was awarded $24.5 million but the trial judge overruled the verdict and the state appeals court would later rule in McFarlane's favor.

If they use your likeness without your permission you could sue and might just win. Not risking losing millions of dollars by asking people to sign contracts sure doesn't sound like 'legal crap' to me. I don't have anywhere near a million dollars and if I ever did become a millionaire I wouldn't consider covering my behind a waste of anyone's time. I'd rather make sure I was safe and risk losing a few sales here and there or pissing off a person or two.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/St.+Louis+City+/+County/312CC2D72285F1CE86256ECD00137993?OpenDocument&Headline=Tony+Twist+wins+$15+million+verdict

"Do you REALLY think that someone could win a court case saying "I bought the game for £20 and thought it was fine to give free copies to everyone I know?""

This is where I think it's fuzzy for indie gamers. What is copyrighted is your game, but most indie people give out the program for free and then to upgrade you buy a code. Your 'box' is copyrighted. But is the 'key' protected under copyrighted laws? That is my main question and one no one seems to have answered(Maybe I didn't explain it well enough).

"Like I say, with 99.99% of my customers they arent going to exploit any lack of EULA, so Ill take their money happy in the knowledge that I dont make them click acceptance of legal crap. the last 0.01% are going to screw me anyway, EULA or now EULA."

Yes, you're 100% right here. Most indie companies are never going to have to worry about this sort of thing. But I'm personally one of those guys who likes to make sure everything is covered and prepared, even when it seems like it's something little, for you never know what the future holds.

"(an asteroid is a real thing, how the fck can it be patented???) "

I don't know about that. I've seen plenty of games (Just bought X2) which have 'asteroids' used in the game. I think your company might have one of those types of lawyers who won't go near ANYTHING with a ten foot pole.

"This kind of lawyer-obsessed crap doesnt go on to combat piracy or to protect companies, its done purely and simply to keep lawyers in fat salaries."

Lawyers are hired by the companies, if they weren't needed they'd be fired. So the company owners must feel a need for protection or they would not be on the payroll. Reread the story I posted about Blizzard where you can see a lack of a EULA would have cost them alot.

Plus, many judges in the US(atleast) don't really understand computer law. So it's best to be able to go up and say "Term 3, 6, and 10 were violated". It's far more simple and it lessens the possible chance of losing the case.

I've seen judges make weird rulings about computer related things such as video games not being protected under first amendment because they weren't a form of art or an expression of idea. I look at things like that, worry abit and don't really have 100% trust in the courts(It was overturned later).

"No you cannot install a copyrighted game on all your friends' machines without the copyright holder's permission, EULA or no EULA."

This is copyright law: Copyright laws grant the creator the exclusive right to reproduce, prepare derivative works, distribute, perform and display the work publicly.

Maybe what you say calls under distribute. Ambiguity in law is a bad thing. The EULA is attempting to remove ambiguity.There is no ambiguity. Installing the game onto multiple computers involves the making of multiple copies. In other words it is a form of reproduction. It would also be considered distribution because you're giving those additional unauthorised copies to your friends (indirectly, by installing the software on their computers).


"Do you REALLY think that someone could win a court case saying "I bought the game for £20 and thought it was fine to give free copies to everyone I know?""

This is where I think it's fuzzy for indie gamers. What is copyrighted is your game, but most indie people give out the program for free and then to upgrade you buy a code. Your 'box' is copyrighted. But is the 'key' protected under copyrighted laws? That is my main question and one no one seems to have answered(Maybe I didn't explain it well enough).I don't know what a judge would think of people sharing a registration key, but that problem is easily solved by having registered users download the full version separately, either as a standalone installer or as an addendum to the demo containing additional copyrighted files (the latter approach even has the added advantage that your demo version would be smaller). With either of these two methods the making of unauthorized copies for your friends is unambiguously illegal, if that's what you're trying to prevent. Having said that, I cannot imagine you making many friends for suing users who share your software with their closest friends.

"No you cannot install a copyrighted game on all your friends' machines without the copyright holder's permission, EULA or no EULA."

This is copyright law: Copyright laws grant the creator the exclusive right to reproduce, prepare derivative works, distribute, perform and display the work publicly.

Maybe what you say calls under distribute. Ambiguity in law is a bad thing. The EULA is attempting to remove ambiguity.


Operative phrase here is the creator. Not the purchaser, user, etc. Meaning, you can't install a copyrighted game on multiple machines without the copyright holder's permission.

The other thing that is getting confused is the EULA -- when people buy a game, they aren't purchasing the physical ownership of the game. They are purchasing the rights (e.g. a license) to use the software under the specified conditions set out in the EULA.


And people should know coffee is hot, but McD is down millions because they did not have it in writing.

I believe this isn't the whole truth to the story. My understanding is the franchisee in question consistently and negligently served their coffee much hotter than "normal", and had complaints brought to them multiple times. That's why they were sued, and that's why they lost.

To prevent further derailing :cool:

I agreed with the majority of points, except the post apocalyptic future reference. I love the Fallout games.

Anthony

While it's been fun talking about all this stuff, it probably would have been far easier to just read into the DMCA to find out the answer easy - which I just did. :P

The DMCA law has made it that you are allowed only one install and one backup. Regerstration codes are considered a contract, thus illegal for anyone to use it on more then one machine(As long as you state that that is the contract).

Hope everyone has learned something from this thread to help maybe protect them or give a better understanding of things.

Like to thank Chrono for his counter-arguements.

Cliffski, was that the kinda provoked discussion you were looking for? ;)

absolutely ;)
For the record, I am aware of the mcDonalds case, but like 99% of the population of Earth I find it unbelievably insane. Companies employ lawyers for one reason, to fight against the other guys lawyers. This is a win-win situation for lawyers of course, but nothing but trouble for the rest of us,.
Have you ever considered a situation where you can honestly say "this would be sorted out much fairer and quicker if we got some lawyers involved"

I HATE the fact that I can't put my name in the AAA title without signing legal crap, especially as I work with a guy called James Brown, is the god of soul going to sue us for having the same name as one of the coders?

If people dont start standing up to the spread of what i lovingly call 'legal bullshit' then we WILL have a situation where we all sign disclaimers as we walk into restaurants, test drive cars, try a free food sample at a supermarket etc.

Here in the UK, a school fund raising fair told everyone that they could not let people bake cakes for the fair and they had to be bought from the supermarket for 'legal reasons'. This kind of lawyer-obsessed crap is gradually wrecking parts of everyday life.
I know one day some single-cell customer will try and sue me because I didnt state clearly in the EULA that dropping ten ton weights on his head whilst playing my game might hurt, but I'll long since have joined Wonko the sane if things ever get that bad.

cliffski I totally agree with you. I stand firm with no EULA in sight. It annoys me as a user, I will never foist it on people to use my software.

I enjoyed that article, cliffski :)

A small note though- you may want to go over it again and fix up the odd spelling error here and there.

"Companies employ lawyers for one reason, to fight against the other guys lawyers. This is a win-win situation for lawyers of course, but nothing but trouble for the rest of us,.
Have you ever considered a situation where you can honestly say "this would be sorted out much fairer and quicker if we got some lawyers involved""

Quicker, nope. Safer, yeah. Thing is, law is ALWAYS going to be there (of course) and the lawyer's #1 job is to interpret the law. I once read it put that the reason you should pay a lawyer now is so you don't have to pay him later(IE, cover your butt now so you don't get sued later).

"especially as I work with a guy called James Brown"

Long as the guy you worked with is signed up, Godfather of Soul can not sue. But if your friend wasn't signed, singer Brown probably could sue. Thus, the company is covering their butts now so they don't have to later.

I think you're safe on the weight thing since I think someone would have sued Bugs Bunny by now. :)

I don't really care for lawyers myself(I know, I know, I've been defending them:P). Thing is, I understand that they don't make the laws or pass them, they just interpret the ones that do get passed and the judge's rulings on things set the precident. That's where the problem with lawyers is and why a good amount of them can be bastards about issues, because they are only interpretting the laws that the government passes.

So let's burn down the governments of the world! :P

"I stand firm with no EULA in sight. It annoys me as a user, I will never foist it on people to use my software."

Well, so far this whole thread we've been talking about the EULA and how it's all about "You can't do this, you can't do that". But if you wanted people to be able to spread your game around to all their friends you can use the EULA to let them do that, legally. Or they could just go download it themselves. ;)

Booth babes - Agreed. They present an image of immaturity and lack of professionalism.
Why would this be true for the games industry and not for every other industry on the planet? Is it acceptable at car shows? Boat shows? Is the movie industry immature and lacking in professionalism?


As for the original article:

+500 sin points for lack of proof reading

+750 sin points for not using a spell checker

Bah. i will try and get the time to spellcheck it.
Sin points accepted ;)

Why would this be true for the games industry and not for every other industry on the planet? Is it acceptable at car shows? Boat shows? Is the movie industry immature and lacking in professionalism?I'm not suggesting the industry as a whole is immature or unprofessional, just that the use of booth babes is immature and unprofessional (and it's not just for the games industry). It seems like they don't trust the attendees to show interest in the product unless they hang a scantily clad bimbo from a fishing pole and shake her.

Well, honestly, have you been to E3? The show floor is a wall to wall circus. You can't talk to people without shouting and the crowding is insane. You have to do whatever you can to stand out if you want people to stop by your booth and take a look. They can't see how wonderful your gameplay is from 20 feet away. They can, however, see your booth babe and they want a better look at her, so...

It's very easy to pretend that booth babes are an immature and unprofessional tactic, and I'd almost like to agree (and criminy, some of them aren't half munters), but the reality is they are a valid business tactic and unsurprisingly they work very well. Sex sells, always has done.

Cas :)

Okay, I failed my Briticisms roll. Munters?

(Never been to E3 so I don't know what real booth babes are actually like... my mind just fills in the scantily-clad girls at gaming conventions, who are probably a different breed, since they're there for attention, not because they're being paid, and have fun costumes and stuff. Do Booth Babes get to dress up, or do they just hang around in Hooters shirts?

... and e3 security probably doesn't have to go around taping over the nipples of girls who've tried to take their costume just a bit too far. Congirls *really* want attention.)

>>>SIN 1: Publisher or developer logo screens
agreed, but I think this is more of a problem for console games, since in most pc games (ie medal of honor) there's a way to remove the intro movies and logos manually.

>>>SIN 2: Installation directories
actually doesn't really bother me that much as long as it lets the users choose an alternative installation path then I am cool with it.

>>>SIN 3: End User Licence Agreement
Agreed. what's worst are some of the games that blank out the "i agree" button for a few second to "give you a chance" to read this crap.

>>>SIN 4: Busty Babe adverts
Sex sell. look at tomb raiders, it's basically super mario with tits.

>>>SIN 6: Compulsory Tutorials
Very few games today include a mandatory tutorial, but I think the better solution would be to have little hints pop up to give you info during the game.

>>>SIN 7: Slow speech
I think another sin that goes with this is the lack of subtitles. In games like call of duty, where you can't adjust the SFX level and voice level independently, it's freaking annoying when your team leader says something and you can't understand it because the guy next to you is handling the machinegun like a mad man.

>>>SIN 11 : Product placement
I don't think the use of real world products in games today are done as advertisement more than it's done to add immersion and realism.

========

Here's a few of my personal observation of retail game developer sins:

- Blantant false advertisement:
Spiderman 2 is a great example of this. Activision basically made 2 version of spiderman 2, a dumbed down kiddy version for the pc and the full GTA-esque version for the consoles. however, in advertisements, they show screenshots and list the exciting gameplay elements from the console version and then puts the "pc cd rom" logo with the advertisement so the consumer would think that the pc version is basically the same as the console version.

- unskippable cutscene/fmv/fma
This is esepcially rampant in RPG games. do you really want to watch the 10 minutes opening again if you are starting your second new game? Or worst, in games which uses auto save, the games saves right before a long ass unskippable cutscene/fmv/fma and then you fight a boss, dies and reloads... guess what? you have the previlege of watching that damn long ass cutscene again!

Do Booth Babes get to dress up, or do they just hang around in Hooters shirts?


They dress up as the characters from whatever game they're promoting. Most of them just look like strippers in cheap costumes to me. And they usually know absolutely nothing about the game they are standing in front of. Of course I'm probably the only person in the world that is annoyed by that.



+400 points if set in a post-apocalyptic future.

I didn't get this. Why pick on the post-apocalyptic-future games and not something like the tolkenesque-fantasy games, or the lone-fighter-pilot-fighting-off-an-entire-alien-invasion-single-handedly games.

Personaly, as a fan of post-apocalyptic-future games it seems to me like very few of them have been made.

Of course I'm probably the only person in the world that is annoyed by that.
No, there are lots of other guys who complain from atop their high horses - while looking down the girls top.

No, there are lots of other guys who complain from atop their high horses - while looking down the girls top.

Oh! Ouch! your laser-like wit has cut straight to the heart of my duplicity!

Regarding booth babes, it's very true there's tons of "noise" at E3 and similar conventions. If you don't have a gigantic booth like Sony or Nintendo, it's very hard to get noticed.

Let's say your goal is to hand out 2000 demo discs or flyers with a booth that's 10x10. If you just sit patiently at your booth, you most certainly will not accomplish this goal. You could personally hand out the demos, but you'll only be able to reach people who walk within 5 feet of your booth. A man in a business suit or polo shirt doesn't draw a whole lot of attention. ;)

However, if you have a half-naked model in front of your booth, you'll probably be able to draw attention of around 20 - 30 feet of the booth depending on the location. Even though the booth babe will know zilch about the game, she'll be able to pass out more demos and flyers than you ever will. Then hopefully when the news editor or business man gets back home, he'll go through his bag of goodies and take a look at your demo.

I'm not advocating this system, I'm just saying that's how the system works.

munter, n., a particularly ugly bird, often with a face like she's been chasing parked cars. Frequently disguised under a thick layer of slap.

Cas :)

slap n, [lit.] makeup, usually applied with a trowel or in extreme cases a shovel. See also slappers [collective noun]

Just in case you thought Cas was refering to some strange violent British tradition :)

especially as I work with a guy called James Brown"

Long as the guy you worked with is signed up, Godfather of Soul can not sue. But if your friend wasn't signed, singer Brown probably could sue. Thus, the company is covering their butts now so they don't have to later.
Strange but true department - I once read how movie & tv producers seek out people with the same name as their characters, and offer to pay them $1 for the right to use their name in the show / movie. Oftentimes TV characters are named for people at the studio office.

This is done for precisely the above reason. Otherwise, someone with the same name as a character in a hit TV series might claim they once waited on Aaron Spelling at a pizza parlor, and that's where Spelling got the idea for the character's name, and thus owes said pizza-server millions.

It's a stupid world we live in.

I don't mind the idea of booth babes at all. Just think of them as a 'pretty ad' for your game. They catch someone's eye and lead them to learning about your game, hopefully getting interested and buying it. What I dislike is the 'superhero' look of 80% of characters and their outfits, nowadays.

I think booth babes are stupid and an embarassment to the videogames industry, myself.

Not that I've ever been to a big trade show; I've just seen pictures, and thought, "urgh, is this the business I'm in, then?"

I'm going to bypass my argument about the relevance (or lack thereof) of E3 as an actual industry gathering since it seems more to me like a press junket and gawk-fest for non-industry folk. But I had a comment on the "booth-babes":

There is no negative stereotype of a movie-goer, a music listener or a book reader. But there is a mass media stereotype of the "gamer" as a pimple faced, socially inept virgin living in his parent's basement. You see and hear it all the time.

I don't think booth-babes do anything to dispell that stereotype as we all know the only way hot women will show up at this event is if the geeks pay them ;) Even then they're eye-candy only. God forbid anyone find out that real women actually play video games, lol!

E3 is extremely relevant. The problem is people assume it is about publishers and developers, or heaven forbid, to inform the fans... when it isn't.

E3 is really about the buyers at companies like Wal-Mart. The whole show exists to convince those guys (and girls, but usually guys) what games they should make shelf space for in the coming year. Everything else is peripheral to that.

The rampant sexism at E3 is less about the game industry being immature nerds (which they generally are) than it is about the sales & marketing people for large distributors being immature frat boys (which they generally are).

8) Agreed, though I want more post apocolyptic games. Too bad Fallout 3 is dead. This is totally unrelated to the topic, but you may be interested in knowing Bethesda has picked up the Fallout license: http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/07/12/news_6102349.html

By the way, I enjoyed the article, Cliffski. What can I redeem my sin points for? How much for the cupie doll/rubber cigar gift set? I'm guilty of the (bypassable) developer screen, but one of the things I thought about doing was mixing the loading screen with the developer logo. Would this reduce my sin points? I'd like to elevate my karma from 7th circle of hell to the relative comfort of reincarnation as a slug.

I think booth babes are stupid and an embarassment to the videogames industry, myself.

Not that I've ever been to a big trade show; I've just seen pictures, and thought, "urgh, is this the business I'm in, then?"
Yeah, but you have no context if you've never actually BEEN to the show. The pictures are always some nerd posing with the booth babe and it looks ridiculous. In context, they're perfectly fine...

They do what they are designed to do : draw attention to your booth.

I'm going to bypass my argument about the relevance (or lack thereof) of E3 as an actual industry gathering since it seems more to me like a press junket and gawk-fest for non-industry folk.
That's completely incorrect. As gfm said, it's about showing the press your game so they can start getting excited about it and getting your game in front of the buyers for major chains like Walmart so they can start predicting their order numbers for the coming years. That's about as relevant as you can get!

I think booth babes are stupid...That's a bit mean; some of them are quite intelligent: Booth Babe Dialogues (http://www.gamecritics.com/feature/report/e3expo2004_babes/page01.php).

"Only a few guys attempt to get fresh. They're not really that caliber of guy. They're more nerdy and wide-eyed and so excited that you're actually talking to them. They seem so un-used to seeing girls. I guess they just play videogames and don't go outside much. It's so cute they way they're so enthusiastic and enamored."
And people wonder why booth babes are used at trade shows.

And people wonder why people are embarassed about being in an industry where booth babes are used at trade shows.

Wayward - of course, you know what I mean... not the women themselves that are stupid... ta for the link.

"Before this, I didn't even know what an MMORPG was."

Fair enough too, most people I know wouldn't; but what I'm wondering is how she actually managed to pronounce "MMORPG". I imagine it would sound like something played backwards.


"it's funny when guys come up to me and tell me that it's their first time touching a girl."

See? Eww, that is creepy stuff. Shudder.

Is there an industry that doesnt use booth babes?

In this day and age, I think we would probably use a babe to make first contact! ;)

Wayward - of course, you know what I mean...
Yes I did. Just messin'. :)

Yeah, thought so...

You know, after reading that article, I'm pretty well convinced I never want to visit E3 as long as I live, anyway... it was deeply disturbing. Grown men trembling to be in the presence of women. Grown men getting abusive trying to get free pokemon toys... very, very creepy.

Anthony

It's irrelevant how she pronounces it or if she knows what it means. That's not her job.

It embarasses ME to be part of an industry in which people actually believe that using sex to sell is a bad idea or that we should somehow be above it.

sex sells to a certain cross section, but overdoing it can actually kill sales.
Take PC Gamer and PC format. I was given subscriptions to both mags, but the pathetic use of 'covergirls' on pc format means Im insulted to support the thing and wont be renewing the sub.
I can understand the concept of P2P without a busty blonde on the front cover pointing with both hands at her tits which show her 'bit-torrent' t shirt.
No im not kidding, this is the cover of the latest edition.

I love seeing naked women, but I don't like to think I'm being conned into buying some crap just because they are splattered all over everything people sell. Especially totally non sexy stuff like computer hardware.

I'd never put a busty woman in one of my games, nor would i ever condone a booth babe to promote one. :p

It's irrelevant how she pronounces it or if she knows what it means.


No, I was just curious. I've never heard anyone actually attempt to say "MMORPG" out loud.


It embarasses ME to be part of an industry in which people actually believe that using sex to sell is a bad idea or that we should somehow be above it.

To which you get the big "HUUUUUH?" That embarasses you? Why? What's so embarassing about that? And why shouldn't we be above it? Most businesses are. Cliffski illustrates it nicely - it's insulting, because it assumes that your customers are cretinous drooling adolescents. Even if a lot of them are, it's still insulting.

To which you get the big "HUUUUUH?" That embarasses you? Why? What's so embarassing about that? And why shouldn't we be above it? Most businesses are.
It's the same level of "Huh?" as you being embarassed that booth babes are used in the first place.

And most other businesses are above it? Interesting. OK, let's limit our discussions to the relevant industry : entertainment.

Now, can you show me an entertainment based business/segment which attempts to sell to the mass market and doesn't use sex to sell?

The Grand List Of Console Role Playing Game Clichés (http://project-apollo.net/text/rpg.html)

Thanks for that Wayward.
:D

'MMORPG' Used to bother trying to get all that out, but now I just go with "Mogs". Since I *am* occasionally in discussions about things that are just massively-multiplayer-online-games without the RPG, and it's a heck of a lot easier to say.

And yeah, I think it would be a more meaningful discussion to talk about cover babes than booth babes. :) Personally I'm far more intrigued by a box with a giant closeup of an woman's *face* than a girl in a bikini. The Forsaken box always drew my eye in the stores. (Many times of picking it up and then remembering that "Oh, right, I don't want to play that.") Does the girl on the box have anything to do with anything in that one?

Okay - the RPG Cliche list almost got me in trouble at work. That was hillarious!

I'm in the middle of reading the book Gender Inclusive Game Design (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1584502398/qid=1089749385/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-3058800-8593514?v=glance&s=books) and in this book the author actually does a very good job of explaining how alienating this 'sex sells' approach to marketing games is to women. And according to many sources women make up 60-70% of the casual online games market (and would probably be a bigger segment of the commercial market too if they were marketed to more effectively). The main point this book makes is that there are better ways to market to women and men, and that with the current approach (scantily clad women with a physique like Barbie's) actually turns away the majority of your potential female audience.

Now, I've been to E3 the past 4 years in a row and it certainly is a very chaotic and loud environement, but one thing I can tell you is that the games with the longest lines and the biggest crowds are very rarely the games with the hottest booth babes. Infact the biggest games with the biggest draw usually have no booth babes at all, they are just very impressive games.

Personally, I think it's just un-imaginative and poor marketing. And I don't think it really helps the games that much.

It's the same level of "Huh?" as you being embarassed that booth babes are used in the first place.


I think that's pretty simple to understand, and has been detailed by a few people here. It's a lot easier than your assertion that anyone NOT wanting to use sex to sell is an embarassment to the industry, which hasn't been explained at all.


Now, can you show me an entertainment based business/segment which attempts to sell to the mass market and doesn't use sex to sell?

I'm sure you can find people who do, in any segment. But that doesn't challenge my assetion that most businesses don't. Most newspapers don't. But tabloid newspapers do. What's your point? That everyone should pitch to the tabloid level?

I specifically said "entertainment based business" for a reason. Anyone trying to sell entertainment or leisure products to the mass market, generally does so with sex.

I don't see why it's so wrong for games to do it as well.

its fine if you want to sell to teenage boys.
most of the ambitous games makers want to sell to everyone.

The main point this book makes is that there are better ways to market to women and men, and that with the current approach (scantily clad women with a physique like Barbie's) actually turns away the majority of your potential female audience.That's a good point. I can't help but wonder what guys would think of trade shows if they hired a bunch of shirtless muscular men to talk to attendees about the latest products. I am guessing most guys wouldn't like it, and I'm sure that many would refuse to talk to the models, let alone pose for pictures with them.

Yeah. Unless they were wrestlers!

Epic - I think "mass market" was a more significant clause than "entertainment". Which could, unkindly, be interpreted as the "anything to make a buck" crowd. I mean, the vast majority of, say, the music industry, does not use this approach. Don't laugh, it's true! But there is a certain "mass market" sector which does (thanks, MTV). However, the music industry as a whole doesn't suffer from negative stereotyping, because it's a diverse industry.

Videogames, however, are not truly mass market. Most people still aren't the least bit interested in them. Including (still) most women. And videogames have a big problem with negative stereotyping, after all these years... still being seen as being targetted at adolescent boys. Not just a sector of the videogame industry... the whole thing. The booth babes just reinforce this "toys for boys" mentality, IMO.