WARNING LONG READ AHEAD!

Someone said that the really important days in a man's lifetime are only 3-4, all the others are just normal ones.
Probably one of those days for me was UBM release, that changed my point of view. Yesterday I was another one. Why? Because I've decided to leave Italy! :cool:
My situation now was this: living in a separate apartment in my parents house, with everything I needed (well except a decent internet connection). I hadn't to pay rent at all, that's a big plus. The apartment is big, more than 100 sqm, with a nice terrace.
So you may think I am crazy to leave? no, here are my motivations:
1) CLIMATE: I really can't stand italian climate, that has changed in last few years to an average of 34-36 °C and 80% humidity during the summer season. I can't stay 4 months doing nothing because of the heat if I want to continue to make indie games...
2) PRIVACY: prepare to laugh. My father bought me a shiny new kitchen, for me and my girlfriend, but EVERY time she comes to my house they insist that we go eat downstair with them. I can't believe that, we has been able to use it only 4-5 times in about one year... also I got lots of relatives often visiting, and so I really can't stay in peace with my partner, doing what we want. We always need to do what THEY want. Think about being in prison ;)
3) NOISE: it is unbeliveable, but even in a small country town like mine, there's a lot of noise. The house is built in front of the main road where during the day LOT of trucks, cars, etc pass and during night lot of people with motocycles make LOT of noise. I can't concentrate with that.
4) COST OF LIVING: thanks to the euro, the italian cost of life is more than doubled. Everyone try to steal from people. Examples: biological rice here cost 3 euro while in Austria 1,25. Butter (of poor quality) here 2 euro, austria 0,99. Got some people who moved to Scotland, and they say that life isn't more expensive either. I am really disappointed, at least Italy used to be a cheap place to live and now it costs more than most of the european countries!
5) LACK OF GREEN: another bad thing is the lack of green. Sure, you can go in those park areas, but you can't just step out and take a walk in the wood as I was used to do when I was on holiday in austria/bavary. For me that is a plus: think that I got the idea of making a boxing game last time I was on holiday in Austria! :)

Those are the biggest motivations. Surely there are more, a lot more, for example the lack of consideration for workers here, small group of people becoming rich while the masses are even more poorer thank to a medieval taxation system, and so on... :)

So what I'm going to do next? I think that'll move to Austria. Is near Italy, is cheap enough (if you don't go living in Wien of course!), and has beautiful landscape. My only doubt is about internet connections, but if I lived with a poor ISDN so far, I can't get worse...I'm looking for houses there right now. I plan to move there with my girlfriend and in the beginning she will help me with my indie work.
Talked with some friends, they think I'm crazy to take such a risk :) I also talked with svero some months ago, about his deicision to move from Canada, and he said me great words like:
most of people don't move simply because they're lazy, or they are fearful, so they just keep staying in a place they hate and say to the one who leave "you're crazy, you can't make it". The fact is that they are envy of what you're doing.

I'll need some luck there. My family will supports me of course, but won't be easy. Surely will be a good motivation to release more UBM quality games in the near future. Anyway, even should I fail going indie, I think I'd probably just move to UK (I do speak well english) and find a regular job as internet developer or maybe in the games industry. I won't go back here in Italy except for visiting my parents.

Wish me good luck!! :)

The austrian indie-scene needs you!

Yeah! I'm coming! lots of beers await me! :)

When doing such a drastic step, you should really consider your move.

check each option, even those you didn't really thought of. Internet connection was one small thing you shouldve checked. What about health system, places to go out, people around (to create a new circle of friends, no need to get lonely), job for your g/f? and language ofcourse.

there are many other factors, be sure to check what they are before setteling down.

good luck!

Yes of course.
Maybe we will be on rent the first few months, just to try. Anyway as I said we can just move to UK. Or somewhere else. I need to experiment. I am not scared to be "alone". I do have friends over internet. You know actually I am not going out with friend since 7 months. I think I can live without that... :)
I'll make some research (thanks to iakibuk) about houses and connectivity problems :)

Best of luck with your big step.

Don't come here! It sucks! (Unless you're good and rich)

Cas :)

hehe, I'm good but not rich for sure :D
Anyway I was thinking more like Scotland or Wales, there the life should be cheaper than UK-London... even if I read that with the exception of London the UK cost of life isn't much higher than Italy, Germany, France, etc...

Scotland is like inverted Italy. For every warm humid day in Italy you'll get one freezing rainy day. It rarely gets to 20 degrees anywhere in Scotland.

Wales is very similar rain-wise but it's a few degrees warmed.

The cost of life is largely down to hugely inflated prices of basic necessities (housing in particular, and the price food from the supermarket "cartels"). Petrol is also hugely expensive here but that doesn't matter as it's all going to run out in about 15-20 years so if some alternative isn't peeping over the horizon in the next decade it won't matter where you are, you're stuck there :P

Health care is excellent, provided you don't get sick...

Cas :)

Rarely gets to 20 degree? wow sounds... cool :)
I do not fear rain at all. Instead, is better, I stay home working :)
I fear the heat instead, because I can't do anything at all (either working and other activities).

House prices have risen almost everywhere, even if in Italy has reached insane prices. I'm just comparing now prices between Italy and Austria. You can buy a nice house like this one (http://kunden.immobilien.net/wohn2/immodb/result.asp?ImmoArt=EinMehrfamilienhauser&DB=77&Ort=Klagenfurt_Stadt_sreal2000,Villach_Stadt_sreal2000,Feldkirchen_sreal2000,Hermagor_sreal2000,Ferlach_sreal2000,Klagenfurt_Umgebung_sreal2000,Sankt_Veit_an_der_Glan_sreal2000,Spittal_an_der_Drau_sreal2000,Villach_Umgebung_sreal2000,Bleiburg_sreal2000,Eisenkappel_sreal2000,Voelkermarkt_sreal2000,Wolfsberg_sreal2000&Order=Kaufpreis&Direction=asc&Page=0&UserId=4240&Ges=300#) in Austria for 72.000 euros. For that amount in Italy you can just buy a flat in a medium-city (in the big cities you pay 150.000 for 50sqm flat).

I don't think house prices in Scotland are higher than those ;)

Now is a very good time to move to Scotland. The Scottish Executive is giving out grants to new businesses like they're toffees, while it's very difficult to get any government help in the rest of the UK.

That said, I left Glasgow in 1998 to move to England and I'm in no rush to go back. It's a very violent place where a 'good weekend' out generally involves drinking an obscene amount and then getting into a fight. England may have the hooligan image but it's a lot safer than that lunatic asylum. For anyone thinking of ever going there, I recommend http://www.glasgowsurvival.co.uk/

SC

I fear the heat instead, because I can't do anything at all.
My house is freezing. It's the a clear summer day here and I'm wearing a cardigan. In the winter it's too cold to work.
You can buy a nice house in Austria for 72.000 euros.
That house is a tremendous deal. In the UK you'd pay 300.000 euros for something similar. I'm moving to Austria too!

My house is freezing. It's the a clear summer day here and I'm wearing a cardigan. In the winter it's too cold to work.
well you can't just turn the heating on? :D
jokes apart... if is cold, you can just turn the heating on a bit, depending how much do you bear the cold (I can work without problem with 15-16°C), while if it is hot what you can do? yes buy a A/C, but then you can't do anything even outside.
Here in Italy now is so hot that you CAN'T EVEN TAKE A WALK!! :) that's not life in my opinion...! I was doing 30 min of jogging everyday and now I stopped it... if I stay here in a few years I'll weight 100kg :)

That house is a tremendous deal. In the UK you'd pay 300.000 euros for something similar. I'm moving to Austria too!
hehe wait, I must first check what's the best internet connection you can get :) but worse than my current crap ISDN is difficult I think...

You can buy a nice house like this one in Austria for 72.000 euros.

72,000 = $87,775.38 USD, thats a steal!

I live in San Francisco and the average price for a house is $427,000. The 300-400K range will get you a 'great' place where you will hear gunshots, police sirens, and street cars all night long. Not to mention the fact that there are drug dealers on every corner in these neighborhoods.

A house in the best neighborhoods in SF are 1 million+. In an average neighborhood, 700-800K easily.

I inherited my house from my dad, so I am lucky. However, if I had to buy a house in SF, it would be impossible.

You should move to the south of france with patraux, at least he has good internet connection out in the mountains

so is your old pad available to rent now then? :)

I'm always surprised by the amount of people who want to move the UK. Probably 'cos I want out of it. We should come up with some kind of house swap thing for indies :)

IndieTimeShare.com?

I do not fear rain at all. Instead, is better, I stay home working :)


Then you should really consider going to live in Ireland - it's very green there, but it drizzles/rains most of the time! I lived there for over 18 years and I thoroughly enjoyed it there. The people were friendly, and IT was a big growth industry then (I don't know about today). Only problem is that house prices are now up through the roof in Dublin, but I used to rent a small house on a cliff overlooking a bay out in Dunmore East with clear starry skies at night for a very, very decent rent! Oh, the good old days...

Good luck with your move.

I must first check what's the best internet connection you can get but worse than my current crap ISDN is difficult I think...Don't assume! :) Here in Perth we've got a strong internet infrastructure, most places can get up to 1.5Mbps - but in the suburbs just 18km (11 miles) from the city you can't get anything better than dialup. No broadband, not even 256kbps. Maybe ISDN, but it's very expensive. There may be broadband blackspots, so check before moving in somewhere.

Also, what about taking a long holiday to the country you're interested in moving to first? (a month or more?) That way you can experiment a bit without having to go through migration procedures each time.

Scotland, is quite nice actually! At least its a lot better than Milton Keynes where I lived before, and a LOT less expensive. I'm from Sweden originally, but moved to UK to get a better games job (I was already working with games in Sweden) and I've never regretted it once.

However, a couple of things about the UK: getting a job is not as easy as you might think, and for the games industry especially, you probably don't have much of a chance unless you've worked on published retail titles before. This is mostly due to all the UK studios going out of business, leaving lots of experienced and skilled people for the rest of the companies to pick up.

Second thing: internet connections. It is not a given that you can get even ISDN in all areas! Apparently the UK phone net is not the most modern there is.

Well good luck. You'll never know unless you try. I'm moving again next month and despite having moved all the way across the planet I'm still filled with a little trepedition at the thought of going somewhere new. You get comfortable in one place and a new place always brings a little fear of the unknown. The fact is ... I don't know if it will be better or worse. But I guess I'll see.

Also, what about taking a long holiday to the country you're interested in moving to first? (a month or more?)
I went to austria lot of times, my last holiday lasted 14 days. I know much of that country but only from the perspective of the tourist.
However what you say is true: maybe I'll better first rent a house for 1-2 months to see how things goes there, expecially if I can find a good place that has both DSL and isn't very crowded (but I think it won't be difficult in a place like Austria!).

I'm moving again next month and despite having moved all the way across the planet I'm still filled with a little trepedition at the thought of going somewhere new.
Yes I think I know the feeling. In your case maybe is even more true because you enjoyed the place you are now. Where are you moving now if I may ask?

I do speak well english
Your English was pretty well perfect, right up until that line :)

I wouldn't advise moving to the UK at all. The taxation here for small businesses is bloody crap, especially when laid onto a background of pretty much the highest taxes generally in Europe mixed with the lowest quality infrastructure, certainly compared to the other major countries. Germany has higher taxes than we do but at least their country works!

We call it rip-off Britain and basically anything/everything is cheaper elsewhere. We got high prices, high taxes and to be frank little else. Hate to be morbid about it but my folks are getting on a bit now. Once they've gone, so am I.

I'm sure I'm taking a few pluses for granted, but trust me - there's a shitload of serious minuses...

Well I said UK but was meaning Scotland, because friend is there and said that the cost of life is almost as here in Italy... (the problem is that now in Italy is quite high!).
My research goes on. Dan McDonald suggestion was nice, I started even to look at some houses in Britain and Normandy :)
The biggest problem is that DSL connection is hard to find in any of the "good price houses"... also I think that for sure we will first go and rent a house before buying a new one, is really a big step!! :D

buying a house in the UK at the moment is a joke. unless you want to live where there are no jobs, you will need maybe £180,000 for the most basic house.
I'm lucky, we bought about 5 years ago for around £90k, the house is now worth about £240k, which is totally insane. I pity people looking to buy their first house in the UK.

haha you know a fun thing? everyone posting here seems to complain about how bad is the situation in their home country!! :)
I complain about Italy, you about UK, another about USA, etc, hehe it's fun :D
I am getting crazy looking at all those real estate sites, already saw more than 100 houses in austria, then some in north of france then now I'll look also in Ireland even if it is a bit too far away from here I think... :)

Watching all of these home-buying programs (Apparently, buying a house is a national pastime in the UK) does make one very very scared about property around here, though.... I lack a pound key so I can't adequately express prices, but while I think cliffski's level of bare-minimum is a BIT high, it's not high by MUCH... definitely not seeing anything, even a dreadful thing, for less than 130 or so. And I'm originally American and put off by all these horrid semi-detached things anyway... where are the REAL houses with some SPACE around them? (No, NOT the manor house and accompanying estate, that's too far the other direction. :) )

Then they do the "Buy a house abroad!" program and show you really lovely and charming homes in Bulgaria or something for about $16k. Great for buying a house, especially for me as I quite like the architectural style of most of the things they offer. Bad for, well, living in Bulgaria... the UK is scary and foreign enough for me. :) (Basically, I don't care where I am if I can get decent food and a good net connection. But it's not that easy to get food that I like -here-... I think it would be a lot more difficult further into Europe.)

I'm hoping to get to Canada eventually. (Can't go back to the US, really, for a lot of reasons.... one of which being that we LITERALLY may not be allowed into the country. Long story. :) )

Good Luck on this huge step!! I'm glad UBM has done so well!

Canada is an excellent place to live. Well worth considering if you are looking for nice places to move to. The cost os living is less then in the US, and I think less than most of europe too.

The people and cities are both very nice. The biggest down-side is that the winter can be really bad.

The biggest down-side is that the winter can be really bad.

Come to the west coast and avoid the winters!

Ugh, I spend the last two winters in Toronto... It's soooo cold! I can't stand it. And there are places much colder than that in Canada... I'm certainly not moving to the Yukon anytime soon. :)

Thanks for the encouragement ;)
Yesterday I looked to almost 100 houses in austria, north of france and some in ireland.
So far austria is the cheapest country, however when I did some searches to find if DSL was available in my selected houses, it seemed that wasn't :(
If I have to move, I want to move for sure in a place where I can get DSL, after 5 years of dialup I want to use it :)
I also changed my mind about rent, even if at beginning it may be expensive (usually renting a house is expensive than buying it, if you have some money and pay only mortgage), I think is essential to find if the place you're moving to is good.
I may know austria well, but I need to live there for at least 4-5 months to be able to judge other aspect like taxation, burocracy, people, etc etc.
The big obstacle for that country is the language. In the case of north of france I could do better since I already can speak a little french. Also, I like the perspective of living in normandy near the druids' temples :D

Would you like me to rant about the pain of starting a small business in France? :)

(honestly, from what I read here it seems quite similar everywhere in the world... but I don't know the details in other countries. In France it's so complicated... :( (and expensive))

haha you know a fun thing? everyone posting here seems to complain about how bad is the situation in their home country!! :)
I complain about Italy, you about UK, another about USA, etc, hehe it's fun :D


We should just trade homes. My wife would love to live in Italy; do you want to live in the Pacific Northwest? We have DSL and cable readily available for a pittance. ;)

Hehe well from Italy to USA is a big step!
How is the situation about pets there? I have lot of them to carry with me :p
Do you have pictures of your house? (I'm curious)

Hehe well from Italy to USA is a big step!
How is the situation about pets there? I have lot of them to carry with me :p


I've been in the US for just over a year and have about a year left here. Before I left I checked out bringing my cat over with me. As far as I could see, there were no problems bringing Surly to the US. I could just put him in a cat carrier and fly him across, the airlines charged about a thousand dollars, IIRC. Bringing him back to Australia however, required up to six months in a quarantine facility, depending on the amount of time prior to departure that he had been given rabies vacs. Australia has extremely strict quarantine regs though. You might find it easier coming and going from Italy.

I decided that it wouldn't be fair on him, and so he is in the care of some friends while I am over here.