I know that a lot of RPGs get turned down by you steve but just wondering will you still publish an RPG if it meets all the requirments but it's file size is high (since thats what will happen if anybody desides to make an RPG), I was thinking about 8-10 MB maybe a little higher.

I'm not Steve but seeing the emphasis Steve places on a small filesize, which is entirely understandable, it could be the best RPG/Arcade/Action game in the world if it's too big for people to download.


Please correct me if I'm wrong but the people who download and play shareware games are not on the leading edge of technology and I'm guessing that this extends to their network connection too. The whole game must be designed with the target markets's needs and limitations in mind - therefore no real need for fancy graphics and more emphasis on an engaging experience. If I undertand this market right: less (complexity) is more (fun). I think this would tie in with what Steve means when he says elegance: the minimum resources needed to achieve a goal; if a feature does not add anything to the gameplay then you can do without it.

My 2 cents worth.
Brian Azzopardi

I dont believe that RPG must be complicated.
actually, i believe that the definition for non-complicated
RPG's are quests.

the fact is that you *CAN* make a non-complex
RPG that is still fun&elegant. problem is that
the people who develop rpg are mostly newbies
which take too much on themselves.

i think that once someone experienced enough
will try to make&design small&elegant rpg, it will
become very sucessful.

in the meantime, ppl who makes rpg dont aim for
the small&elegant. they aim for the latest hi-tech,
and the vision of more complex -> the better gameplay.

Originally posted by Grimreaper
[B]I'm not Steve but seeing the emphasis Steve places on a small filesize, which is entirely understandable, it could be the best RPG/Arcade/Action game in the world if it's too big for people to download.


Please correct me if I'm wrong but the people who download and play shareware games are not on the leading edge of technology and I'm guessing that this extends to their network connection too.

What makes you think that you have to have the latest technology in order to have an RPG? A lot of amateur RPGs are actually made with not a whole lot of high technology in them

Presently we are looking to expand into other genres aside from puzzle games and arcade games. We have an RPG in our evaluation queue right now that looks promising, so we may end up publishing it. Its demo is under 10MB.

There are several challenges with publishing RPGs though:
- We don't know if they'll sell well, so the first one we publish would be more high-risk than other games.
- It takes a lot more work to QA an RPG than a puzzle game, which further increases our risk.
- An RPG could potentially have a much higher support burden than a puzzle game, especially a brand new RPG that has never been commercially released.
- There are relatively few quality RPGs that are small enough for mass-market electronic distribution, so we may have a hard time finding many publishable games in this genre.
- In this area we're more likely to compete with retail games. It's tough to find good puzzle games in a retail store, but it's easy to find good RPGs.

There are also some advantages to publishing an indie RPG:
- Even though the market may be smaller than for puzzle games, there's a lot less competition.
- It could serve a segment of the RPG market that isn't being well-served by the retail offerings. For instance, I've been playing Morrowind lately, but after putting in about 20 hours, I got bored with it. The gameplay just feels bogged down with dullness -- the quests are uninspired (like picking flowers and mushrooms), and there are lots of redundant NPCs that all say the same things. The colors in the game world are also very dark and gloomy (mostly earthtones). I'm sure there are a lot of players out there who might enjoy a simpler type of RPG that lets you have more fun for less work.
- It would probably be relatively easy to sell a sequel to players who bought the original game.

So we're certainly open to publishing an RPG, but we're going to be fairly selective such that the first one we publish has a good chance of success.

Yeah, I couldn't stand Morrowwind either. NWN was a bunch of fun though. I just don't understand people who get obsessed with the morrowwind type games. They seem like such a cop-out to me. There doesn't appear to be any clear game design involved. Just a buncha coders who simulated a whole environment and let you loose in it. Personally I prefer a much more created experience when playing a game. Much like reading a book I want to experience a well thought out and planned adventure that the writer/designer intended their users to experience. Rather then some piecemeal story that i happen to stumble across different parts of an i explore some arbitrary world I’ve been thrust into.

Same here. Morrowind is a very open-ended game, but I find that openness boring, since it's missing a clear means of measuring progress (which is a key quality of a good RPG or adventure game). This doesn't have to fall back on "kill the bad guy" though. My favorite RPG of all time was actually Ultima IV. There was no villain in the game, but your overall quest was clear, and you could easily gauge your progress. But you still had plenty of freedom to decide what you wanted to do.

have to disagree with you there Steve...

ive played all the ultima series, but i still think NWN is the
greatest.

took me a month to finish it, and then i played again for
another month in a totaly different character, class(es),
played an evil char for the first time in my life - and the first
time i saw you could solve each quest (and so many of them,
found much that i missed at the first time) in a totaly different
way (ex. convince someone to give smtin to you opposed to
(evil way, hehe) stealing it or killing him when that doesnt work)

immersion at its best, worth every penny.

I don't think Steve said anything about NWN, unless you inferred that NWN and Morrowind were similar "open ended" type games. I'd have to disagree with that conclusion however, I felt NWN had a strong story and I always knew what the next thing I was supposed to accomplish was and where I fit into the grand scheme of things story wise. Even though I wasn’t restricted to the story, I knew what the next major plot goal was if I decided it was time to achieve it. I did not get that impression from Morrowind, in fact my experience of the "story" in Morrowind was very fragmented and segmented as opposed to the continuous nature of NWN.

I can't comment at all on NWN since I haven't played it, so my previous comments were limited to Morrowind only. Most of what I've heard from others about NWN is that it's a fantastic game aside from some weaknesses with the AI.

In Morrowind you can do many different things, but there doesn't seem to be any coherent story behind it. I advanced in several guilds, assassinated five members of a rival guild, went up a few levels, talked to a lot of NPCs, and developed quite a few skills, but the game didn't provide any real motivation for me to do any of these things other than just keeping busy and acquiring more stuff. Was it fun? For me, no, not really.

Originally posted by Dragon Keeper
What makes you think that you have to have the latest technology in order to have an RPG? A lot of amateur RPGs are actually made with not a whole lot of high technology in them

What makes you think I was talking about RPGs? I did not say that you have to use the latest technologies to have a good (whatever that means) RPG or any other kind of game. In fact, if you read my post right, I was arguing just the opposite: great graphics are not needed for great gameplay.

For example NWN implements per-pixel lighting/shadows and looks great. Does this add anything to the story/gameplay? No it doesnt but because NWN is an AAA-title they have to make use of all the latest and greatest tricks. On the other hand us shareware developers dont have the time and resources to do what a studio can do. Therefore in our case: less (graphical trickery) is more (emphasis on cool gameplay).

Anyway lots of cool graphics may sometimes require a bunch of extra textures, etc which start taking up a lot of space. A game destined for downloading cannot afford a big filesize.

RPGs are hard to get right story and gameplay wise. It's hard for a studio to get these elements right let alone an individual. In an RPG alot of thought has to be given to character design and QA is more difficult too. An arcade game is simpler to design: once all the weapons,etc have been specced out and balanced it's just a matter of making a bunch of levels.

Brian Azzopardi

I didnt' care for morrowind either and stopped playing it shortly after I started. I did like NWN though and continue to play it. I think a shareware RPG could make money but in my mind it would have to be something with more of a diablo style than an Icewind Dale style. My gut tells me to work in the shareware market it would have to be very easy to get into, and that means losing complexity (at least on the surface) an a fairly linear and clear progression.

If you check out the RPG's that .Spiderweb Software (http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com) has to offer I think you'd be impressed. I found the game Geneforge to have a rich and involving storyline and the game play wasn't just Diablo style hack and slash. Jeff Vogel has been making shareware RPG's for quite some time now and has been successful doing it. If you want to emulate a shareware RPG developer I think Jeff would be a good one to copy.

Download geneforge, it really is quit impressive....

Jeff is also very approachable, if you send him questions in email he is always quick to respond, it may only be a terse 6-10 words but he will answer your questions

Originally posted by Dexterity
Presently we are looking to expand into other genres aside from puzzle games and arcade games. We have an RPG in our evaluation queue right now that looks promising, so we may end up publishing it. Its demo is under 10MB.

There are several challenges with publishing RPGs though:
- We don't know if they'll sell well, so the first one we publish would be more high-risk than other games.
- It takes a lot more work to QA an RPG than a puzzle game, which further increases our risk.
- An RPG could potentially have a much higher support burden than a puzzle game, especially a brand new RPG that has never been commercially released.
- There are relatively few quality RPGs that are small enough for mass-market electronic distribution, so we may have a hard time finding many publishable games in this genre.
- In this area we're more likely to compete with retail games. It's tough to find good puzzle games in a retail store, but it's easy to find good RPGs.

There are also some advantages to publishing an indie RPG:
- Even though the market may be smaller than for puzzle games, there's a lot less competition.
- It could serve a segment of the RPG market that isn't being well-served by the retail offerings. For instance, I've been playing Morrowind lately, but after putting in about 20 hours, I got bored with it. The gameplay just feels bogged down with dullness -- the quests are uninspired (like picking flowers and mushrooms), and there are lots of redundant NPCs that all say the same things. The colors in the game world are also very dark and gloomy (mostly earthtones). I'm sure there are a lot of players out there who might enjoy a simpler type of RPG that lets you have more fun for less work.
- It would probably be relatively easy to sell a sequel to players who bought the original game.


(sorry if I quoted kind of long) Ok, I'm glad I got that out of the way before me and my cousin start working on the major details of the RPG we are going to create. So far all the people we told say the rpg will rock, but we're affraid that the file size will be really high for how complex we have it so far.

Originally posted by Dan MacDonald
Yeah, I couldn't stand Morrowwind either. NWN was a bunch of fun though. I just don't understand people who get obsessed with the morrowwind type games. They seem like such a cop-out to me. There doesn't appear to be any clear game design involved. Just a buncha coders who simulated a whole environment and let you loose in it. Personally I prefer a much more created experience when playing a game. Much like reading a book I want to experience a well thought out and planned adventure that the writer/designer intended their users to experience. Rather then some piecemeal story that i happen to stumble across different parts of an i explore some arbitrary world I’ve been thrust into.

what about difficulty in RPGs? Do you like them hard? I like them to start out easy but get harder as the game progresses, I like this because it tests my skill.

Originally posted by Dexterity
I can't comment at all on NWN since I haven't played it,

yeah I've never played it either, some of my friends say it's awesome but I don't want to get the X-Box and find out...IGN rates it a 9.4 though, so I'll try it out for myself, that is if I ever get the x-box.

Originally posted by Dan MacDonald
If you check out the RPG's that <a href="http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com">Spiderweb Software</a> has to offer I think you'd be impressed. I found the game Geneforge to have a rich and involving storyline and the game play wasn't just Diablo style hack and slash. Jeff Vogel has been making shareware RPG's for quite some time now and has been successful doing it. If you want to emulate a shareware RPG developer I think Jeff would be a good one to copy.

Download geneforge, it really is quit impressive....

Jeff is also very approachable, if you send him questions in email he is always quick to respond, it may only be a terse 6-10 words but he will answer your questions.

have you played Exile? I found it kind of fun actually...don't know about other people. I was thinking about downloading it I guess I'll do it now that you mention that it's good.

Dexterity:

You mentioned a demo size limit. What does this mean exactly? Can you have a small demo and a much larger game?

Does this mean you will eventually move into sending games by mail like Amazon does?

Ideally we want to keep the demo and the full version under 10MB each. But we'll usually allow the full version to be as high as 20MB, as long as the demo is under 10MB.

From our experience of the past three months, we've learned that size does matter -- a lot. The bigger the demo, the fewer the sales. The bigger the full version, the fewer the sales. Right now we don't have enough data to get an accurate correlation, but my best guess is that a game with a 6MB demo will sell half as many copies as that same game with an identical-looking 3MB demo. Every MB counts.

The sweet spot seems to be in the 1-3MB range, for both the demo and the full version.

So if you have to go big (for either the demo or the full version), you'd better have a really good reason. Dweep Gold, for instance is less than 1.4MB (demo and full version). It uses MIDI music instead of MP3s. Even though the game runs in 16-bit color, most of the sprites are stored in 8-bit format with their own palettes (which still looks the same but is much smaller than storing 16-bit sprites). And all the backgrounds are tiled. So if your game will include 4MB of MP3s, you have to decide if that will really make a difference in sales vs. having just a few KBs for MIDI music.

We won't be distributing CD-only games in the near future, so the size limits are still very important.

Originally posted by Dexterity
Ideally we want to keep the demo and the full version under 10MB each. But we'll usually allow the full version to be as high as 20MB, as long as the demo is under 10MB.

From our experience of the past three months, we've learned that size does matter -- a lot. The bigger the demo, the fewer the sales. The bigger the full version, the fewer the sales. Right now we don't have enough data to get an accurate correlation, but my best guess is that a game with a 6MB demo will sell half as many copies as that same game with an identical-looking 3MB demo. Every MB counts.

The sweet spot seems to be in the 1-3MB range, for both the demo and the full version.

So if you have to go big (for either the demo or the full version), you'd better have a really good reason. Dweep Gold, for instance is less than 1.4MB (demo and full version). It uses MIDI music instead of MP3s. Even though the game runs in 16-bit color, most of the sprites are stored in 8-bit format with their own palettes (which still looks the same but is much smaller than storing 16-bit sprites). And all the backgrounds are tiled. So if your game will include 4MB of MP3s, you have to decide if that will really make a difference in sales vs. having just a few KBs for MIDI music.

We won't be distributing CD-only games in the near future, so the size limits are still very important.

Really?!?!?! I didn't think the size of the full version mattered...I will easily believe why you guys say that for the demo though. I personally don't care how big the full version is (to me a big game means that it's been worked on a lot), just as long as the demo isn't, becuase I hate downloading big demos...thats probably why I never really looked into downloading spiderweb softwares rpgs (3d games) much.

Are you saying you wouldn't mind if the game had a 3GB download? Bigger is better? Personally, I think if you make a customer spend 1 hour downlaoding a purcahse, you have probably pushed them to the limits of their patience.

LordKronos:
i think youre exaggerating.
the idea for a game for download to be 30-40mb
doesnt seem so distant. i remember myself dl-ing
a 25mb game demo with my 56k modem.

problem is, that you need the game to be good
enough for this. i would like to think that a 25mb
demo has a quality in relation to its size.

meaning that you rely on the user's sense to
estimate how good is your game in realtion to its
size.

i wouldnt think of dling Id's Commander keen 6 demo
back 10yrs ago if it was 2-3mb even though i still
admire the game.

would you download a puzzle game having 14mb?
most chances you wouldnt, unless it was 14mb worth
of good.

BUT and i say BUT, as i said before, there are games
that do justify their size of download. i just dont believe
that people will download my 40mb demo.

still, Id's Doom 3 demo (i believe its way over 40) WILL
be downloaded.

why?

coz they justified the size by a jaw-dropping scenes,
lastest-tech effects and the right hype.

just a thought.

Many players will not download a 20MB file. Keep in mind that our market is not the same as the market that will gladly download a 50MB demo of the latest FPS. Many players around the world are using dial-up modems and paying per-minute connection charges, so bigger downloads cost them more money. Plus many people don't have the most reliable connections, and they experience frequent disconnects or stalls during downloading. Some players only have one phone line for voice/data, and they don't want to tie up the line (especially with others in the household yelling at them). And still other players don't know they need to disable call-waiting while online. :)

These are just some of the reasons I hear from players. But the #1 reason we look for smaller files is simply that they appear to sell better. More people download smaller files, and more people buy them. There are sectors of the market where people are impressed by size; ours isn't one of them.

LordKronos isn't exaggerating by much. I just downloaded the Medal of Honor Allied Assault demo and that was 175 megs. :) I have broadband though (about 5 megabit downstream) so it didn't take that long.

Originally posted by gilzu
LordKronos:
i think youre exaggerating.


How could I be exagerating? There was nothing to exagerate. You said:

"I didn't think the size of the full version mattered" ... "I personally don't care how big the full version is (to me a big game means that it's been worked on a lot)"

and I was just seeing how far you would take that logic. By your response, I take it you WOULD mind downloading a 3GB game, huh? So there is some cutoff to just how far you can go. A lot of people aren't as patient as you. Like I said, I think an hour is about as far as you can push it. I really think a half hour would be more ideal. Considering quite a few people still have 28.8/33.6 connections, a 10 MB game is pretty much the limit for those users, and probably about ideal for a 56K user.

And like Steve said, this isn't the same as iD's market. Remember how insanely dedicate some of their fans are? Do you think a few thousand fans will drive/fly thousands of miles (some from around the world) with their computer just to play against other players at a convention for YOUR latest game? Not very likely. They are completely opposite markets, and comparing them does nothing for you.

what i meant, that youre exaggerating on the size
of your game in relation to its quality.
no indy shareware game will reach 3gb let alone 1 gb.
and if it will weigh 40mb and have the same relation to its size
itll be great

I think the trouble with selling and distribution of budgetware online games is that most of the people who are interested in these kind of games tend to be at the lower end of the spectrum in terms of their levels of computer literacy and in terms of the computer hardware on their desk. I would bet a lot of them are also more middle-aged type and/or parental types. Being budget minded, they aren't likely interested in upgrading their internet connections to broadband and they might even be using work-provided hardware (such as my mom, who likes these kind of games but plays them on a pretty old laptop that she's not even allowed to upgrade).

These people aren't going to be as WOWed by fancy graphics or fancy sound and music as some of us hardcore gamers and game developers are. So the 'benefits' of having a big download, which is invariably the presence of fancier gfx and sound, aren't very valuable period, even if is is good gfx and sound. Cut out the gfx and sound and retain the gameplay and you'll get more downloads and sales. Is it selling out? I dunno, you have to make that call yourself.

For the record, this is the dilemma I am in right now. We at Hour 13 Studios (http://www.hour13.com) have completeted the bulk of an exceedingly fancy falling-blocks puzzle game, called Chicken Little (http://www.hour13.com/cl/). The problem is that the demo, a mere 1/2th of the game, is over 12 megs. The game is too big and fancy for small-market PC gaming, but it's not really good enough to go beyond that market. Being stuck in the middle isn't much fun; interest in it has been low. Should I leave the game as it is, or strip out half of the frames of animation? Sure, the animation wouldn't be as silky-smooth, but the game will be about 50% smaller and the gameplay would remain intact. Tough call.

- Air

Originally posted by LordKronos
How could I be exagerating? There was nothing to exagerate. You said:

"I didn't think the size of the full version mattered" ... "I personally don't care how big the full version is (to me a big game means that it's been worked on a lot)"

and I was just seeing how far you would take that logic. By your response, I take it you WOULD mind downloading a 3GB game, huh?

it's called an opinion kronos