I make games. That's what I enjoy doing. That's what I'm best at. I don't know much about e-commerce, I don't know much about websites or HTML or order processing.

So two months ago I decided that I basically had a couple of options:

OPTION #1
- make a game
- research all things web related
- build a website
- promote/market website
- handle customer service [and other] issues
- etc.

Or...

OPTION #2
- make a game
- find a publisher (with luck)
- make tweaks and changes required by publisher
- make a new game
- update first game
- tweaks and changes to 2nd game
- make a 3rd game
- etc.

The first option would only allow me to do 1 game a year, while the second would allow me to release two games, maybe more. But now that Dexterity is "booked up" for awhile; now that my contact at RealArcade isn't returning my e-mails, and my other potential publishing partner is looking to buy games outright, my original gameplan is kinda kaput.

So it looks like I may have to do the website thing after all. In fact, I'm wondering if I should build my site now (using affiliate games), so I can generate a little traffic for my site and get it submitted to search engines well BEFORE my game is finished.

Any thoughts or suggestions about this? I'm not even sure where to get started...

(I built a simple website in "Front Page" a few years ago: www.home-robot.com so I'll probably use that program for my site development.)

Dexterity & Real aren't the only publishers on the web,
so dont exclude the first option before you go and check
other shareware publishers.

btw,
"make a game" in the to do list?
i wish it was so easy for me... :)

Originally posted by John Cutter
But now that Dexterity is "booked up" for awhile

Steve: if this is actually true is there any point even submitting at this time?

There aren't much online publishers. The most aren't experienced at all.

I can recommend:
Dexterity
Garagegames

Realarcade got a good company name, but also in my case the contactperson isn't very helpfull. He didn't gave any reply after the submissions. So forget Realarcade. They aren't professional at all.

Garagedeveloper, etc. aren't real publishers. About Shrapnel I heard some bad stories, btw they only do war games. So there isn't much choice out there. You have to publish it yourself. Dexterity will continue with publishin but it's true it won't be much.

how about option 3 ?

- buy a game engine and change the graphics
- build a website
- promote/market website
- handle customer service [and other] issues


pat.

Originally posted by Carrot
Steve: if this is actually true is there any point even submitting at this time?

No. We've already replaced the submission form with a message saying that we aren't accepting outside submissions any longer, so there's no longer a method for submitting, and we no longer have anyone reviewing submissions. I realize this may seem rather abrupt, but once the decision was made, there was no reason to delay action.

When will dexterity be open for submissions again ?

Originally posted by Dexterity
No. We've already replaced the submission form with a message saying that we aren't accepting outside submissions any longer, so there's no longer a method for submitting, and we no longer have anyone reviewing submissions. I realize this may seem rather abrupt, but once the decision was made, there was no reason to delay action.

So what have you decided to do then, just scour the newsgroups, and download sites etc... looking for suitable games? Wouldn't that be necessity limit you to non-exclusive publishing deals? How will find brand new games?

As far as I know, GarageGames does not do any support for games they publish. They expect the developer to provide that support.

How many publishers actually provide the technical support for a developer's game? It seems like publishers would handle the order management stuff, but any technical questions are going to land back in your lap.

Another company that takes submissions is Spiderweb Software, developer of Avernum, Geneforge and other. Their webpage is http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/.

Steve: if this is actually true is there any point even submitting at this time?

While I certainly understand, support, and accept Steve's reasons for no longer accepting submissions, this news was very disappointing to me. Because of Steve's participation in this excellent forum I was really looking forward to establishing a publishing relationship with Dexterity. In fact, to improve my chances I studied the titles on this site and then COMPLETELY redesigned my game to make it more compatible.

Unfortunately, I think that hardcore Dweep-style puzzle games appeal to a fairly niche audience (that Steve has targeted brilliantly), so it looks like I'm going to have to throw out most of that work and rework my title so it will appeal to more of a mainstream crowd.

Anyway, back to my original question. Should I finish my game and THEN build a website? Or should I build a website using affiliate games, submit it to the search engines, start to build an audience, and THEN finish my game? Any thoughts or suggestions on this? I'm really floundering right now...

Originally posted by John Cutter
While I certainly understand, support, and accept Steve's reasons for no longer accepting submissions, this news was very disappointing to me. Because of Steve's participation in this excellent forum I was really looking forward to establishing a publishing relationship with Dexterity. In fact, to improve my chances I studied the titles on this site and then COMPLETELY redesigned my game to make it more compatible.

Unfortunately, I think that hardcore Dweep-style puzzle games appeal to a fairly niche audience (that Steve has targeted brilliantly), so it looks like I'm going to have to throw out most of that work and rework my title so it will appeal to more of a mainstream crowd.

Anyway, back to my original question. Should I finish my game and THEN build a website? Or should I build a website using affiliate games, submit it to the search engines, start to build an audience, and THEN finish my game? Any thoughts or suggestions on this? I'm really floundering right now...

Finish the game first. Test it very carefull on fun gameplay, bugs, performance etc. Also use some beta testers to test the game objective about the "fun" gameplay factor and also on bugs. When the game is ready develop a high quality demo, also tested by beta testers. Then develop a high quality website, user friendly orderform, arrange orderproccesing by for example Regnet, demo distribution to downloadsites (Tucows, Download.com Sponsors), send press releases to game sites and pc magazines, demo submission to retail shareware publishers (retail compilations), techniques for search engines, etc.

Originally posted by svero
So what have you decided to do then, just scour the newsgroups, and download sites etc... looking for suitable games? Wouldn't that be necessity limit you to non-exclusive publishing deals? How will find brand new games?

No, we won't be scouring the web for new games either. Sure, if something incredible falls in our lap, we may consider it, but that isn't going to be a real part of our strategy moving ahead.

For the next several months we're going to launch the titles we have in our queue now, plus focus on internal development most of this year. This may even lead us to us a Dweep sequel somewhere down the road. And we'll also take a look at new titles from developers whose games we've already published.

Over the past year, it's become clear that the quantity of games we release isn't nearly as important as the quality. I expect us to release fewer new games this year vs. last year, but we'll strive to make the quality and value of each game much higher. We haven't been able to achieve the necessary level of quality we're looking for from outside submissions, even with months of QA work... at least not in a way that's cost effective. By quality I'm not just referring to gameplay but also to the marketability of the game, the usability of the interface, the registration incentives in the demo, and the overall polish. Many games miss one key factor that dooms them to low sales, and often this can't be fixed in QA. For instance, if you design a game that has no market, it doesn't matter how perfectly everything else is done.

Originally posted by Dexterity
No. We've already replaced the submission form with a message saying that we aren't accepting outside submissions any longer, so there's no longer a method for submitting, and we no longer have anyone reviewing submissions. I realize this may seem rather abrupt, but once the decision was made, there was no reason to delay action.

Hmm... it's a pitty, but I understand the problem. You already told in the beginning that you want to get a serious business relation with developers and stick to it for a long time. Developing/publishing together high quality games for years. But most developers are using Dexterity as an online outlet, just like a "download site". That's a pitty, because from your business model view you were more interested in serious business relations with developers for a long time. Were the developer improve his demo, develop new releases, sequels etc. And Dexterity handle the technical support, customer services, QA, marketing etc. I got one question by the way, Steve. How big is your company ? I know that you got Todd (producer), but are there also other staff members. Is Todd still working for you? Because you removed the submission form. I am looking forward to your reply.

So there isn't any good trustfully online game publisher available anymore :( So we need to do it our self (self publishing), guys.

Originally posted by johnson
So there isn't any good trustfully online game publisher available anymore :( So we need to do it our self (self publishing), guys.

That may be a bit of an oversimplification. The Internet is huge and I find it hard to believe that Steve is the only reputable publisher of shareware games in the entire world.

This Google search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=windows+shareware+game+publisher&btnG=Google+Search) for "windows shareware game publisher" returns over 42k hits. Sure, much legwork will be necessary, but that's what being in business for yourself means.

And, as Steve has said himself, he has a full pipeline for games to publish at the moment. If you find a bunch of other publishers who have the same problem, then perhaps what you really need to do is start a publishing business (centered around the game that you want somebody else to publish). There will most-likely be others who are as frustrated as you with trying to find a publisher. If you treat them right and market your products, you will likely be as successful as Dexterity or Ambrosia or GarageGames or anybody else.

-daniel

(PS If I seem biased, that's because this is exactly the plan I have)

This is somewhat disappointing but I expected in all likelihood to be heading down the self-publishing road anyhow. There are many people in these forums who already went this route. Not to understate Steve's impact here, but he's not the only one providing inspiration. :)

questions to Dexterity/Steve Pavlina:
Will you be developing games again? Who writes the upcoming Dexterity games? Is your whole time consumed by business affairs now?

Steve writes his own games, he's been a game developer longer then he's been a gorilla marketer. ;)

I did a little bit of legwork, and here are my results:
1) Real.com

2) Spidweb software (More RPG oriented)

3) www.cosmi.com (I don't know how to submit a game to them though or whether they even consider submissions)

4) MVP software

5) www.gamethoughts.com (Looks a little bit weird, and there was a comment about them ripping off Dexterity's site in the beginning, so you might have to be wary)

6) Idigicon: I think they buy games outright

7) Xtreme games LLC: They don't seem to know how to make a website work though. Every time I opened up their website, my computer crashed as the site tried to play some music

8) www.garagegames.com: The newest kid on the block

Originally posted by pangyan
I did a little bit of legwork, and here are my results:
1) Real.com

2) Spidweb software (More RPG oriented)

3) www.cosmi.com (I don't know how to submit a game to them though or whether they even consider submissions)

4) MVP software

5) www.gamethoughts.com (Looks a little bit weird, and there was a comment about them ripping off Dexterity's site in the beginning, so you might have to be wary)

6) Idigicon: I think they buy games outright

7) Xtreme games LLC: They don't seem to know how to make a website work though. Every time I opened up their website, my computer crashed as the site tried to play some music

8) www.garagegames.com: The newest kid on the block


As you noticed it's better to choose the self publishing route in that case.

Only MVPsoft is a serious possibility to consider.

Spiderweb is more specialized in RPG. They published also 2 strategy games and one puzzle, but I am not sure if it's a succes strory. They are famous because of there RPG titles.

This Google search for "windows shareware game publisher" returns over 42k hits. Sure, much legwork will be necessary, but that's what being in business for yourself means.

I think a lot of those results are "I wish I had a windows shareware game publisher." ;)

This search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=windows+shareware+%22game+publisher%22&btnG=Google+Search) is a bit more realistic and returns 430 hits.

Now that Dexterity isn't taking submissions anymore I think we've hit a milestone with the Dexterity Indie message board. This is the point where a lot of discussions will shift from being dependent on Steve and Dexterity in the future, to being independent of Steve and Dexterity. Kind of ironic considering how being independent has been the subject all along.

-Pat

This was intended as an indie message board all along, and I certainly plan to keep it going. For the next few weeks I'm going to be busy with the transition, so I won't have time to be as active here myself or to answer every question, but that's probably a good thing, since it will give others a chance to post more. :)

Can someone here recommend MVP? Have any of you guys had previous experiance with them or at least heard about them? I went to their site and read up about them. They have a completely different idiology from Dexterity. They prefer that you send them your unfinished game and they will work with you to make it good. This sounds good, but on the other hand they don't let the developer finish their game as the developer wants. What do you people think? Any thoughts welcome!

All i can say is MVP paint was my favorite pixeling program of all time (still is my favorite full screen low res pixel pusher)

I did some paid technical writing for MVP Software many years ago, and I worked on a couple games to try to get their interest. One was an unfinished puzzle game which Dave Snyder declined because "the bottom has dropped out of the puzzle market." (This was '94.) The other was a prototype for an adventure game, but it was too ambitious to make marketable without additional funding and neither he nor any other publisher were biting. (This was back in the day when everyone thought making an aggressive prototype was the way to get published and get funding.) However, Dave seemed to be a pretty nice guy about it; I had no problems working with him. The two programmers on the team for that project both managed to create games that Dave liked. C. Steven Blackwood made Cargo Bay, a Sokoban clone which has my ex-girlfriend's voice as the computer, :rolleyes:. I wrote the palettized alpha blending for the logo, which I was pretty proud of. ;) Dave Bollinger made Debris and Rings of the Magi, the latter is still a big hit for MVP.

Regarding Dexterity's problems with too much submisions, I think MPV did a very smart thing. They only accept submissions via mail(hard copy). This probably reduces a lot of those hopeless submissions. Just a thought that dexterity might consider when they start publishing again...

MVP software has been around a good while time, and this thread prompted me to jump to their site a look at what their up to....not much it seems. Their site seems to have not been updated since circa 2001(!) There are some recent messages in their Forums, but the rest of the site is quite stale looking.

I have to think this would give anyone considering working with MVP pause.

David

Does anyone have any thoughts on Emetrix (http://www.emetrix.com)??

Originally posted by johnson
So there isn't any good trustfully online game publisher available anymore :( So we need to do it our self (self publishing), guys.

Self publishing is what I've been planning to do all along. Steve himself has said that this is the best way to go. Also, if you go with a bundle/retail publisher you will get very little royalties because retail (especially bundles) doesn't make a lot to begin with.

Originally posted by Jagg
Does anyone have any thoughts on Emetrix (http://www.emetrix.com)??

^Bump^

Nedzad said:

I started with eMetrix at the end of 2001 because they were able to handle third-party affiliate programs but I'm still with them. It's very simple to setup program, they can hendle CD burning for you, support for aff programs, all questions answered within 24 hours (usually within few hours), CC/phone/fax orders with no additional charge, payments on time...

From here http://www.dexterity.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=490&highlight=emetrix

You can search for "emetrix" in the forum search, it'll return all threads that have that word.

Have a look at this software selling site.

http://www2.kagi.com/

I am going to be giving it a try very soon.

No start up fee's too. You only get charged when you sell.
The cost comes to 10 % of the product if it is under $ 25 USD.

Steve, I think you have the right idea.

In my experience marketing alot of games, just one hot game that is done right outsells the average 25 or more to 1. That means I would have to promote 25 average shareware games to equal the success of one killer game. It just isn't worth it trying to make up for that in volume. The goal is to find the gems (or in the developer's case, to make the gem)