not really a hype, but i see all kind of sites displaying their
material before actually reaching pre-alpha status.
it seems to be tradition to display concept art and models
while it appears that the game is only at the starting stages
of its development.

made me wonder what's the purpose of all this?
I see it as a sign of wannabe-ness from the developer,
because the only reason i see for advertising this material
is to show the people who visit it how (more likely not) serius
the development is.

on the other hand, the (few) sites ive seen that hadn't completed
their development but show great potential (take a look at
http://wildfiregames.com/0ad/ ), have the only point of wanting
people to join their development team.

still, as successful as they are, i cant see the point of opening a
website for a game that hasn't been released (or at lest got to
the poing of beta). It's not like people will want to know about
the latest <unknown team/studio> development.

any opinions on this?

Well, I think you're right that there are a lot of sites out there touting games that will never amount to anything more than a few design sketches, etc. However, I think if one is really serious about finishing a game, creating a little pre-release buzz and maybe even trying to form a community is a good idea. Of course, if all you have is an idea and a few sketches, that may be too soon to start the PR hype, but even then I don't think it hurts. If you eventually release your game, you've already had months pre-exposure and if you don't release it, no one will care, so why not do it?

We've displayed concept art before. Mostly it's to give interested people something to look at.

Is it a form of hype? Sure, though "hype" seems a bit strong. It's just information for people who care to wander by and look. Just like screen shots from development. And posted .plan's. And progress reports. And just having a Web page for the game before it's released.

Not sure what the problem is, though. Am I missing something?

-David

The reason developers do it is because they are excited about their new project (see the butterfly thread) and want to show everyone the cool stuff they are working on.

But I think displaying anything about an unreleased game on a site's main page is a big mistake. Here's why:

I have no hard evidence of this, but it makes sense to me that a player might hold off purchasing a current title if they see another one is "coming soon"- especially at sites that give multi-product discounts.

"I want to buy weebles now, but I think I will wait until wobbles comes out too, so I can buy both at the same time and save a buck".

Then, of course, he forgets all about it and never buys either. Know what I mean?

That's a good point, Mike.
I agree, pulling the potentional customer's attention away from your finished titles can be bad for your sales numbers.

But I guess most of those teams don't have a running site with other titles yet, so no harm done in those cases. They are excited about the project and want to show the world what they are creating.

Ofcourse, displaying your graphical style and game ideas too soon can also mean that someone other will 'borrow' your style/ideas before you can finish your own game. That would be quite annoying I guess.

I think there is another reason, other than developers being eager to show off the project they have just started. That is that they are over optimistic about how quickly their game will be finished so they start to hype it too soon.

Wouldn't the smart thing to do be that you wait until it's almost done and then generate the pre-release hype. With a few concept sketches etc... This way it's almost done, and yet you still give them the feeling of seeing something before most other people do.

Yes and that is the lesson that the mainstream publishing industry has spectacularly failed to grasp.

By marketing the games too soon they risk user apathy setting in when slippage happens. Also it puts pressure on to get the game through test and out the door. This can lead to the final (most important part) of development being rushed.

Also the review copies are invariably beta test instead of finished code and as most of the game play gells in the very final stages of testing the review copies do not do the game justice. On the few occassions I have seen a game's release delayed it has invariably reviewed well because the copy sent out was tuned and tweaked fully.

Originally posted by Mike Boeh
The reason developers do it is because they are excited about their new project (see the butterfly thread) and want to show everyone the cool stuff they are working on.

But I think displaying anything about an unreleased game on a site's main page is a big mistake. Here's why:

I have no hard evidence of this, but it makes sense to me that a player might hold off purchasing a current title if they see another one is "coming soon"- especially at sites that give multi-product discounts.

"I want to buy weebles now, but I think I will wait until wobbles comes out too, so I can buy both at the same time and save a buck".

Then, of course, he forgets all about it and never buys either. Know what I mean?

Well.. I get a lot of newsletter signups from my coming soon pages. People who want the new space taxi but then end up buying some other release in between and so on. I'm not sure how I'd measure people that didn't buy a product because they saw something coming later. Personally I think if I've played a demo and really liked the game and came to the site to pick it up, that I wouldn't wait to get another game I've never played unless it was a sequel to the game I was looking to purchase. So for instance if I played best friends and then wanted to buy it and went to your site and saw and ad for best friends Deluxe! coming next week I'd certainly hold off, but probably not if I saw an add for some other game.

My problem isn't what's wrong with publicizing before releasing,
there are quite a few reasons why not, as stated in this thread.
The problem is to find what's good about this unsuccessful hype
among game developers.

I usualy find concept art and think:
"so what?" leading me to a "wannabe" impression.
Sure, as a developer I have interest on these project, something
like flipcode's pic of the day.

But when it comes to being a customer - these sites fail misrably.
Here's why bothers me what (most of them) dont have:

1. Short description of what kind of game is it (genere, target
system, targer audience), A bit about the game (objectives,
how its divided - levels/acts/maps , the story in essence)
-Why?
I want to know what youre offering to sell me, and why i should
bother to have interest in it. if you would wirte the next UT, and
all you write about it is "It's the greatest FPS" the "so what?" sign
will show up in my head again no matter how great your game is.

2. When the game will be published, how much will it cost,
what its features will be, why its better then the rest
-Why?
Hey, you got my attention, now tell me some details.
If i liked the screenshots and the concept, i would like to know
some details of the game to see if it will be worth my time and
money.
if i should bother to tell my friends "hey, there's a nice game in
development, it might interest you". the answer to their question
"tell me about it" shouldnt be "ummm... its an <genere>..." and
be followed by "thats about it, i think".

3. proffesionalism - the quality and the amount of work invested
in the site is usualy proportional to the work&quality invested in
the site.
-Why?
I think you can figure this out for yourself.

so there,
unless you post it in a developer forum, i can't see the point of all this.

I agree with the gilzu's sentiment, even though I've been guilty of this myself :)

Part of my reasoning (in the past) was because it was difficult getting used to working in a vacuum. For people just starting out in indie development it's tough not having peers around to help you maintain momentum. I was used to working in an office surrounded by creative people, it's not the same as working alone from your home.

A lot of it is "look at what I'm working on" and then praying for some positive feedback to keep you going a little longer. It's a double-edged sword though because negative feedback can quickly discourage you from following through at that early a stage.

Well, I purchase shareware games often (mostly because they are a total impulse buy... I see it... it looks cool... I register it and have it in 5 minutes... you can't do that with store software... you have to make a special trip to the store, or order it online and wait for a week)...

But I can tell you, above all, my biggest pet peeve is when you advertize a game, and YOU DON'T HAVE A RELEASE DATE, A DEMO, A BETA TEST, OR SOMETHING!!!!!! I mean, if you are going to hype up a game, or advertize a game, you had better give me a date of release, or a demo, or a beta test, ongoing game related fiction! Something that tells me this isn't "vaporware". Just give me SOMETHING entertaining!!! "Comming, 2003" just isn't going to cut it with me, sorry. I absolutly hate reading a site, thinking how cool a game is, and then not knowing when I can expect to purchase it. It is like a slap in the face.

For example, I saw a cool looking ad for a MMOG called "StarLock". Now, I didn't have to search for the game, I didn't see the game on some game-programming message board, the game was being advertized in a web banner on the MMOG index (not just listed, it was a paid advertizment). Clearly the author wanted as many people to go to the site as possible. I click on the ad to go to the site, and find out that there is no date for release, no beta test or demo I can try, and not even an accurate idea of when I can play the game (other than the faq, which says it will be released on Jan 1st, 2003). Needless to say, I am not going to return to that site again. There is endless amounts of very impressive "vaporware" out there, I want to look at real games. I am sorry "StarLock", your game looks cool, but you aren't "Star Wars Galaxies", you can't hype it up that far ahead of time without people bored.

Now, you might give good reasons why I am being a jerk, why I should give those people another chance, or whatever. But I, like most people who purchase shareware games, am very fickle. A game is an impulse buy, and if you mess with my sense of immediate gratification, it stops being fun. I may be a jerk, but what I purchase and what I don't is entirely my perogative, and I think many shareware authors forget how easy it is to piss off someone and NOT sell them a product.

I'd have to disagree with both gilzu and rexrhino on that one. There are some good reasons for it. We're currently advertising WordWars on our main page. As someone mentioned before, they get newsletter signups about it, as do we. We also get beta tester applications for it, which I feel is also very important.

I really don't think you should come down on one side the way you have and say that it's never a good idea to do so. Like almost everything in programming, there is usually a reason behind everything. It's not always a good one, but it does exist. In a case where someone is running paid advertisements to get someone to their game site and they have nothing but some descriptions and screenshots, you can only guess as to his reasons. For all we know, he could be doing that to see what kind of traffic he's getting and use that as validation for finishing the game.

Would I do that? No, I don't think so. But if someone has never programmed a game before and that's all they have to show off, they're going to do it. Managers do look at peoples' websites when they do hiring. And having something like that shows off other capabilities.

Basically, my point is that just because sometimes you probably shouldn't post screenshots doesn't mean you never should and vice versa.

Originally posted by rexrhino
But I can tell you, above all, my biggest pet peeve is when you advertize a game, and YOU DON'T HAVE A RELEASE DATE, A DEMO, A BETA TEST, OR SOMETHING!!!!!! I mean, if you are going to hype up a game, or advertize a game, you had better give me a date of release, or a demo, or a beta test, ongoing game related fiction! Something that tells me this isn't "vaporware". Just give me SOMETHING entertaining!!! "Comming, 2003" just isn't going to cut it with me, sorry. I absolutly hate reading a site, thinking how cool a game is, and then not knowing when I can expect to purchase it. It is like a slap in the face.

yup.
thats the word i was looking for.

vaporware.

knowing its a wannabe team ultimatly leads you to think of their
chance to succeed.

Would you consider something like the upcoming game called 'Trash' from Inhuman Games (http://www.inhumangames.com) to be vaporware? They've had screenshots for over a year. They also had a form on their site for beta testers, but have since taken it off. They are currently running the beta test, but it's closed to the vast majority of the people who applied. They don't know when it will be finished, nor do they have a release date or a publisher.

Honestly, without these even, I think this game will be a huge success and will put these guys on the map as a development studio and launch them towards other games. That's just my opinion I suppose. But should their site be considered vaporware? I'm trying to get a feel for what is and what isn't in your book.

@mtaber:
in check my criteria in my last post youll see that 'trash' actually
fits well in it.

1. they have information about the game - what its about,
genere, story, features, design doc, features and so on
2. Actually HAVING a beta, means that it isnt a vaporware and
show signs of upcomming release.
3. Their site looks proffesional. Gread web design, both graphically
and material arrangemnt.


and 2 last things that make it better than the sites i was talking
about:

1. it constantly updated - something you cant attribute to
vaporware (unless its junk that is updated)

2. it has a forum - it shows interaction, meaning that they want to
create a community or gather fans around the game.

read my message again, i dont think you read it all through.

Yeah, trash actually has a currently running Beta program. I can sign up online, and hopefully be able to play the game.

Ok, just checking to make sure I understood what you were saying. So, it's basically you just have a problem with people putting up web pages for projects they want to accomplish. Not ones that people want to do or just barely started on. I can see that I suppose.

Originally posted by gilzu
not really a hype, but i see all kind of sites displaying their
material before actually reaching pre-alpha status.
it seems to be tradition to display concept art and models
while it appears that the game is only at the starting stages
of its development.

made me wonder what's the purpose of all this?
I see it as a sign of wannabe-ness from the developer,
because the only reason i see for advertising this material
is to show the people who visit it how (more likely not) serius
the development is.

still, as successful as they are, i cant see the point of opening a
website for a game that hasn't been released (or at lest got to
the poing of beta). It's not like people will want to know about
the latest <unknown team/studio> development.

Personally, I think that if any indie developer wishes to appeal to consumers they need to do this kind of thing. Being a wannabe is the whole point. If they can blur the line as to whether or not they are indie or not then it's mission accomplished. I've had a a number of editors from various websites contact me because they want to cover more indie titles, but they're looking for those with "crossover" appeal. You're not going to see a Tetris or Breakout clone on Gamespot for example, but you just might see something like Strength & Honor (http://www.ezgame.com/SNH/index.html) or They Came From Hollywood (http://www.theycamefromhollywood.com).

You don't want to push the game too much, but if it was up to me I would take the following steps during the development proccess.

1: Register an actual domain name for the game itself and put up a quality (i.e. polished) website.

2: Get some screenshots posted, even if they are mock ups (don't feel guilty, this is so common it's not even funny), and send out a professionally written press release to as many websites as you can.

3: When you're ready to accept beta testers send out another press release and even post it in some message boards. Doesn't mean you're ready to start the beta test, just that you're accepting applicants (Inhuman Games did this with Trash and got over 4,000 applications).

4: Send out an email to particular websites offering to give an interview. Websites, especially smaller ones that aren't in the favor of the publishers, jump at the chance of new content. Interviews are very cheap and easy for them. Throw in some exclusive screenshots or wallpapers while you're at it. Do this about once every two weeks or so once you're in your beta.

Having a hard time getting them interested in talking to you? Tell them about your past experience. If you've worked at a major studio in the past then sell that. It's like a job interview. If you're having trouble selling you game then sell yorself.

5: Send out another press release when the beta is finished and the game is released.

This is a pretty minimal approach if you ask me. It's like they said in Glengarry Glenn Ross. Always Be Selling! Ever talked to Jay Moore at Garage Games one on one? That guy will drive you nuts because you just know everything he says is leading to a plug for one of their products. Or Derek Smart from 3000AD. Love him or hate him, he's the lord salesman of his product and himself. One of the biggest problems with independent developers is that many of them seem to think they can just announce their title once it's finished and then expect to start promoting it. Sure, you're going to need stuff to show for it if you hope to promote it while it's still in production, but that's part of the proccess.

(P.S. I am in no way claiming that the things I stated above are completely original thoughts, hehe.)

Originally posted by Mike Boeh
I have no hard evidence of this, but it makes sense to me that a player might hold off purchasing a current title if they see another one is "coming soon"- especially at sites that give multi-product discounts.

As someone who purchases tons of titles every month I tend to disagree with that. If your next title is a followup to your existing title then yeah, I might hold back. But if that's what a developer is doing then they have other issues they need to sort out. Seeing what's coming next just means I'll check back with that developer again in the future. It's like advertising on the back of another product, happens all the time. That's why publishers include demos of future products in their new release games.

The multi-product discount issue is valid, but can be easily solved if you ask me. Just make it so existing customers get discounts(or other incentives) on future titles. If your game costs $14.99 you most likely don't want to give them a $5 discount, but if you say "Repeat customers get a 20%(or whatever) discount on all future products!" Hell, you could even have something where they get a higher discount for the more games they purchase. If you have a large number of titles on your site you could considering offering a return ticket type deal like they have at Subway. For every full price product you purchase you get a virtual 'stamp'. Once you get 5 (for example) you get your 6th title for free.

If Retro 64 had a deal offering me a free copy of Marbles Delux Super if I purchased their other 3 titles I would get in on that. Hell, that's even news worthy.

Originally posted by obscure
By marketing the games too soon they risk user apathy setting in when slippage happens. Also it puts pressure on to get the game through test and out the door. This can lead to the final (most important part) of development being rushed.

The final development shouldn't be rushed, that's a key benefit of being an independent developer if you ask me(or even if you don't, hehe) They Came From Hollywood (http://www.theycamefromhollywood.com) has slipped a number of times(almost a year now I believe), but apathy seems to be at a minimum. If you can show a valid reason for the slippage, and you keep your fan base informed then there shouldn't be a problem. If you say "Well, our release date has slipped by 4 months because the gameplay sucks." then you're going to have a problem. But if you say "We've decided to push the release date back 4 months so we can spend more time on gameplay. The technical path is finished, but we want to make sure we make the game as fun as possible before releasing it. It's something we owe to our fans and ourselves." then that's ok. Give a reason, show a benefit, and show sympathy.

Originally posted by Gabor
Ofcourse, displaying your graphical style and game ideas too soon can also mean that someone other will 'borrow' your style/ideas before you can finish your own game. That would be quite annoying I guess.

I just had to comment on that one. Recently there was a discussion on a Finnish game-dev board about keeping your game ideas secret so no-one would steal them. The discussion went as follows:

<Many people with very little release experience>
Yeah, keep secret. Hide it. Don't tell anyone

<Guy from Remedy, those who did Max Payne>
While developing Max Payne we toured all Game Industry shows for many years telling everyone about this cool new feature "Bullet Time". We described it with the outmost detail to anyone who would listen. We were just laughed out ..

;)

Yes it's probably a non-issue in the professional segment. The companies have too much credibility to lose, plus there are ways to protect intellectual property.

But in my design work for smaller projects and demos I have learned that many people in fact don't respect the intellectual property of others and just take and use what they see on the web or in demos. (Especially if the original creator is someone unknown and unlikely to take any legal action.)

I had some bad experiences with this behaviour. Sure, those people weren't professional and their games eventually won't even get finished, but it's annoying none the less.

Not to go off topic, but the Glengarry Glenn Ross quote should be Always Be Closing. (I love that film!) :)

I'm not sure if Rainfall Studios would be considered “hype” or not by the definitions given above. Frankly it wouldn't matter to me either way. We promote (as in increasing public awareness) Katsu's Journey as opposed to "hyping" it (hype = diakatana, Duke Nukem Forever, Segway etc.) I see hyping as a negative because it builds false expectations for a product, expectations that are typically not met. Promotion however educates potential customers about a project and gets them thinking about it.

It's a lot of effort, building and maintaining the site, generating new content, maintaining plan files, creating polls, monitoring site stats, and writing a monthly newsletter. One might say that this is a wasted effort hyping something that doesn't exist yet.
We choose to take a different perspective. Selling shareware takes time. Getting good exposure with small amounts of $$ takes a lot of time.

If you read Steve’s articles or posts on this forum, you’ll know he talks about how long it takes to build momentum around a shareware game. So instead of starting our momentum machine after we finished our game, we decided to start building momentum early, so that when we release the game we will have a nice audience of people lined up to download and possibly buy it. We will already be appearing in the search engines, be linked to from other sites, and generally have some reputation.

When we first made the site we were getting 10 unique hits a day, now we consistently get 65 uniques. Now that’s not a lot compared to some of the successful Indies that frequent these forums, but I can’t imagine working for two years on a game, finally finishing it, only to have a poor initial response because people don’t know it exists.

I think it's actually a failing of a lot of indie /shareware game developers that they don’t build enough momentum for their new products BEFORE their release.

@Dan: Your posts are quite insightful on game development but when I saw the tests you posted of Katsu's Journey a while ago, I must confess I was disappointed with the result. It seems the quality of your posts on game dev generated a high expectation in me about the quality of the game. Yes, its only a test and I'm sure it will all come together when you release the game, but you have to wonder if your customers will be disappointed if they set a high expectation based on the quality of your promotion.

That said, when Dan put his hand up and posted his test of Katsu's Journey, it was definitely brave because here's is someone who is not afraid to take feedback and more importantly encouraging other developers to come out of their shells and show their wares which many did (Virux was a nice game that comes to mind). I think private posts of work in progress in these forums is a good idea. I'm just not sure about about public display of work in progress.

@Gmicek: thats exactly what needs to be done if you want
to do it right.

@ mtaber: i have no problem with people posting info about
projects the want to accomplish. i have several in my favorites
folder. my problem is with websites that miss their goal trying
to be a commersional promotive/hype and all they have on their
hands is a few screenshots but no solid game info

I don't think it's such a hard thing to separate clearly-bogus indie hype from more legit indie hype. I mean sure there are thousands of websites out there with screenshots of some kid's lousy terrain engine... and without fail it is accompanied with text describing how this MMORPG and/or RTS, when completed, will be really really awesome and cool.

And all of us here, upon seeing one of those sites, just shakes our head, says "poor kid", and moves on. Simple as that. I think those were the sites that the initial topic of the thread was focusing on.

Dan, I think your site is about right on par with ours. It might not offer a lot in the way of actual downloads or gameplay demos, but if nothing else our sites are at least kinda fun to browse through-- a lot more fun than looking at some bland mockups or terrain shots for those MMORPG/RTS projects especially. :)

- Air
- Hour 13 Studios (http://www.hour13.com)

Originally posted by Kai-Peter
I just had to comment on that one. Recently there was a discussion on a Finnish game-dev board about keeping your game ideas secret so no-one would steal them. The discussion went as follows:

<Many people with very little release experience>
Yeah, keep secret. Hide it. Don't tell anyone

<Guy from Remedy, those who did Max Payne>
While developing Max Payne we toured all Game Industry shows for many years telling everyone about this cool new feature "Bullet Time". We described it with the outmost detail to anyone who would listen. We were just laughed out ..

;)


Ideas are mostly worthless. It's not so much that someone won't be tempted to steal a good idea as it takes so much more effort to actually implement something than dream up some new idea that the latter is the only thing of any real value. I have more ideas than I'll ever be able to develop. Anyone who thinks good ideas are worth something please contact me for pricing. ;-)

@Dan: I wrote a long response to your private message only to find that your mail box is full and my response disappeared too inspite of saving a copy and hitting the back button a few times. Clear your mailbox doode! I will try to write the mesg again if possible :(

Woops! My humble apologies, I wasn't aware of a limit on private messages. Should be resolved now.