LordKronos
06-18-2003, 01:50 PM
Posted by Jake Stine at 06-15-2003 05:03 PM
This post is both a self-pity soap-box speech and a cry for advice. In a way I can't help but feel somewhat envious reading a lot of the self-help posts here. While I'm not as ambitious with my goal setting and listing, I have always had a very positive set of goals for myself and have a truely healthy life style, much as Steve indicated for himself.
However, I suffer from narcolepsy; it bites into a significant portion of my daily time (I have to sleep 9-11 hrs a day), and I have to fight the effects of sleep deprivation on a daily basis. There are almost no medications available for narcolepsy aside from caffeine (limited effect), amphedimines (which are more bad than good), and some new prototype drugs not yet on the market... so I'm pretty much stuck with it for now.
The three biggest problems that stem from it are:
(a) I don't alway have control over when I need to nap. I've found myself sleeping face-down on the floor under my chair a number of times.
(b) Occasional manic-depressiveness that stems from me becoming really hyper on days when I'm actually not feeling tired, and then crashing the next day due to severe sleep deprivation.
(c) Watching other people pass me by. I only get a few hours of fully awake conciousness per day, which makes it very difficult for me to follow in the footsteps of other people who are able to put a lot more work in each day than I can.
The last part is often the most depressing aspect of my condition, because I really do strive to do well-- but I can't help but feel like I will always come up short because I simply don't have nearly as much time in a day as most other people. There have been times when I've lost half of a week or more to just trying to recover from a busy weekend... it is hard, after all, to reaffirm your goals and motivate yourself when you can't move your head or arms until 3pm in the afternoon.
I flunked through high school because I couldn't stay awake. (At the time my psychologists didn't know why, and suspected my diet or depression/stress was the cause.) I've never had a job due to very realistic fears of falling asleep on the job. Unlike other disabilities which are very obviously needing assistance and special accomidations (blindness, deafness, injuries, etc), narcoleptics simply appear to be very 'lazy' people, and usually field many more angry criticisms then assistance or sympathy.
And here's where I ask advice:
What should I do? Where should I turn? What does a quiet, passive, narcoleptic programmer do to make a living? I can learn anything in a heartbeat. I'm not intimidated by any language or api, but I also know I cannot work alone. I don't have enough effective work hours per day to be able to pull that off.
Since I haven't been able to get over the hump of indie game development, I'm considering getting a part time job at the mall or something just as a start. I think I would be comfortable and capable doing that, but by no means would I be self-sufficient at that point. I also have to consider the fact that working 8+ hrs a day would leave very little personal time for myself (for exercise and what not), which in itself is not good either.
I want to be able to hold my own, and I want to be able to help my girlfriend and her two kids financially... and right now I'm afraid that I'm not physically capable of getting there. I need some advice on things I can do to prove that notion wrong.
- Air
Posted by Dexterity at 06-15-2003 06:01 PM
I've read a little about this condition, and I've seen evidence that it's linked to overconsumption of sugar, much as in diabetes. That includes table sugar (sucrose), honey, maple syrup, fructose, artificial sweeteners, any processed foods that contain sugar (almost all processed foods do), and sweet fruits. If I recall correctly, a group of narcoleptic school children saw massive improvement when all sources of sugar were removed from their diets. I don't remember the source of this info though -- it was years ago that I read this somewhere.
A great book I can recommend is The pH Miracle by Dr. Robert Young. This may give you some strong clues as to the root causes of your condition. Also his book Sick and Tired gives a more technical treatment of this topic if you're into cellular biology and want to see all the technical evidence, including photos of his blood work. Dr. Young's work is based on viewing what actually happens to our blood when we eat certain foods. One of the most controversial aspects of his research has been the discovery that our own blood cells can devolve into other lifeforms such as yeast, mold, and fungus. Such polymorphism was previously believed impossible. In cases when we become ill, Young asserts that it's due to an overly acidic bloodstream, which he believes is the source behind all known health problems.
One simple test you can do is to measure the pH of your blood to see if your blood is acidic (below pH of 7.0) or alkaline (above pH of 7.0). It should be alkaline. If it's acidic, then the narcolepsy is potentially caused by an overly acidic inner environment, which can be completely corrected with diet. If you don't want to prick yourself, you can also measure the pH of your saliva and urine. You can pick up pH strips at a local vitamin store. I recently got about 5 yards of strips for about $10. The pH of your blood should be alkaline for you to have a healthy internal environment. Cancer cells, for instance, won't grow in an alkaline environment. Of course, over 99.9% of Americans are likely to have acidic blood.
From my own understanding of this topic, I would guess that narcolepsy may be linked with an overabundance of yeast in the bloodstream. Yeast thrive on sugar, so a diet that's abundant in sugar will cause an upsurge in yeast. Yeast also thrive in an acidic environment. What may happen then is that when you eat, your blood sugar spikes for a while, but then the yeast consumes most of it, so it doesn't get to your cells. As a result you become tired and sleepy. If you're experiencing constant fatigue and tiredness, it's a safe bet that your blood is acidic.
Keep in mind that any dietary changes will take a while to kick in. For instance, when I went raw, I felt worse for the first week. This is very common, and the reason is that my blood actually became more acidic for a short time because my cells finally got a chance to release stored toxins. But then when balance returns and your blood becomes alkaline, you feel an amazing upsurge in energy.
If you tell me what you eat in a typical day, I may be able to give you some further ideas to explore. Feel free to PM me if you'd like. Almost all conditions of this sort are diet-related. The symptoms can often be treated with drugs, but drugs will never correct the underlying condition -- i.e. the original source of the imbalance. For instance, caffeine-containing items like coffee, tea, soda, and chocolate are all extremely acid forming. Consuming these foods will only further acidify the bloodstream, leading to an exacerbation of the underlying condition. Also, such foods are often high in sugar or consumed with sugary foods like pastries and cookies -- all high acidifying.
It's entirely up to you if you choose to identify with the narcolepsy and make it part of who you are, or if you maintain it as something separate and distinct... i.e. a temporary imbalance. I can't tell you what the right decision is for you, but from what I've learned I strongly believe the condition can be permanently reversed.
__________________
Steve Pavlina
Dexterity Software
www.dexterity.com
Posted by Karukef at 06-15-2003 06:03 PM
Okay, I am going to give you one option that you may consider as a way to get yourself started on deciding how YOU want to handle this. It is no actual "things a narcoleptic programmer can do", beacuse I do not know the answer to that.
The suggestion is a classic goal setting course? The one I've been listening to lately is Goals, by Zig Ziglar (try here)
I am suggesting it because it is a way I personally find to be a great way to achieve anything. The basic concept that if you want to get anywhere, you need to set goals. In your case, I would assume your goal setting require you to really decide what you want to do about your situation, and action steps to include educating yourself about your options and, well, posting on a board like this.
The facts that you are cued in on a positive community like this, and possibly on personal development methods, are probably the best help you can ever ask for.
I wish you good luck in your progress towards the goals you decide to set.
Posted by gilzu at 06-15-2003 07:26 PM
I had the same problem. Deciding what to do, that is.
I have Crohn's Disease . while it is not narcolapsy, I spend
my time more in hospitals then at home. I will not elaburate on my
condition, but I was even closer to give up than you.
I finished up Highschool, doing the finals in the hospital.
But I set myself goals, or evenmore, Plan A and Plan B.
Plan A (more realistic and practical):
-I'm in the second year learning Computed Sciences
in the Open University. I learn everything at home
from the material they send me, and all i have to do
is send works by mail, and come to the tests.
The Degree is fully recognizable, and i didnt even need
to do my finals for it.
-Meantime, i'm doing sidekick gigs (you can see in my site)
and each time build myself a reputation for doing these
kind of gigs and only accept works that can be done at
my time and from my house
Plan B (which is probably why i'm here):
-Shareware game.
I've teamed up with a friend who has another similar
Disability, and the resoult will show up in the next couple
of months (near finished, actually).
Dont give up.
there's always even more options than you think.
__________________
Gil Zussman
http://www.gilzu.com
gil@gilzu.com
Posted by Uhfgood at 06-15-2003 08:12 PM
I wish social anxiety could be cured with a change in diet ;-)
Keith
__________________
Keith Weatherby II
uhfgood@uhfgames.com
http://www.uhfgames.com
Posted by Dexterity at 06-15-2003 08:16 PM
Incidentally, Crohn's Disease (i.e. inflamation of the intestine) is 100% reversible by diet, as well as other forms of IBS (irritable bowel syndrome). One major cause of Crohn's is the consumption of baker's/brewer's yeast, found in most baked goods. Crohn's is also heavily linked to high fat, low fiber diets. A low fat, high fiber diet alone is reported to reverse about 85% of Crohn's/IBS (two different studies were done on this that I know of, both from the 1980s IIRC). Other dietary refinements (such as eliminating all yeast-containing products) can push the other 15% back to a healthy state. A good book on this subject is Colon Health by Robert Gray.
Unfortunately many doctors have been taught that Crohn's is caused by emotional disturbances, but this simply isn't the case, since diet alone is enough to reverse it completely. The emotional aspect is nothing but a symptom of the underlying imbalance. Crohn's is just one of many possible manifestations of a clogged intestinal tract, but living with Crohn's is a lifestyle choice, not an irreversible sentence. It's basically impossible to develop and maintain Crohn's unless you eat a certain way.
When my wife and I first went vegan (after being vegetarian for a while), we each lost 7-10 pounds in the first 7 days. Mostly this was from going to the bathroom, as our intestines finally had a chance to rid themselves of many pounds of built-up mucus deposited by dairy products (most of which are high fat, low fiber). And most non-vegetarians are carrying around even more than this. It's really no wonder that various forms of IBS have become so common.
__________________
Steve Pavlina
Dexterity Software
www.dexterity.com
Posted by Dexterity at 06-15-2003 08:20 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Uhfgood
I wish social anxiety could be cured with a change in diet ;-)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, to a large degree, it can. Diet has a significant impact on our emotional states. For one, the hormones found in animal products will wreak all kinds of havoc on the human endocrine system, causing you to feel a variety of emotions for seemingly no logical reason. This can perpetuate the problem by inducing excess stress, which will often cause improper breathing, thus leading to some degree of oxygen deprivation, which then induces the growth of yeast, fungus, and harmful bacteria in the bloodstream. And these anomalies can trigger a strong craving for even more destructive foods, especially those with high sugar content. So you eat the sugary food, and this further feeds the growth of these unhealthy microforms, which can leave you feeling tired, lazy, and generally in a bad mood.
__________________
Steve Pavlina
Dexterity Software
www.dexterity.com
Posted by Hydroaxe at 06-15-2003 09:07 PM
Despite newer discoveries and studies, some doctors still prescribe immune suppressant drugs or do destructive surgery on their patients' intestines. These are the kinds of doctors that don't read any further information on gastroenterology after they've become doctors and are probably on the golf course by 1600 hrs everyday. Smarter doctors know that avoiding pastas, bakery products and other refined carbohydrates can significantly reduce symptoms of IBS and Crohn's, but that's not the whole story.
The smartest doctors read the latest journals on gastroenterology and will have you avoid refined carbs, start a diet with less fat and higher in fiber, among other things and then also prescribe the antibiotics ciprofloxacin and metronidazole. The carbs only worsen the symptoms of these diseases and aren't always the main cause. Otherwise, almost everyone would have these diseases. The anitbiotics can get rid of the bacteria even without a diet change, but it's not wise for anyone to be on a diet of refined carbohydrates, especially since they cause so many additional problems for Crohn's/IBS patients.
Here's a few short articles complete with journal references:
http://www.drmirkin.com/morehealth/7985.htm
http://www.drmirkin.com/morehealth/g213.htm
http://www.drmirkin.com/morehealth/9095.html
http://www.drmirkin.com/morehealth/8122.htm
__________________
www.hydroaxe.com/
Posted by Nikster at 06-15-2003 09:08 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately many doctors have been taught that Crohn's is caused by emotional disturbances, but this simply isn't the case, since diet alone is enough to reverse it completely.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hrm, maybe this is an American thing.. because my specialist gladly said that they didn't know the cause of it and "guessed" it was down to either a bad diet and or stress and or it was hereditary, I only have a mild form of it and seeing as your convinced that it's reversable, although it's not really been proven as such, I think I may take sue my specialist for not informing me that changing my diet would cure me. BTW do you have any online links regarding this research from the 80's ?
Posted by Nikster at 06-15-2003 09:11 PM
Oh yeah.. could have been down to smoking too.
This post is both a self-pity soap-box speech and a cry for advice. In a way I can't help but feel somewhat envious reading a lot of the self-help posts here. While I'm not as ambitious with my goal setting and listing, I have always had a very positive set of goals for myself and have a truely healthy life style, much as Steve indicated for himself.
However, I suffer from narcolepsy; it bites into a significant portion of my daily time (I have to sleep 9-11 hrs a day), and I have to fight the effects of sleep deprivation on a daily basis. There are almost no medications available for narcolepsy aside from caffeine (limited effect), amphedimines (which are more bad than good), and some new prototype drugs not yet on the market... so I'm pretty much stuck with it for now.
The three biggest problems that stem from it are:
(a) I don't alway have control over when I need to nap. I've found myself sleeping face-down on the floor under my chair a number of times.
(b) Occasional manic-depressiveness that stems from me becoming really hyper on days when I'm actually not feeling tired, and then crashing the next day due to severe sleep deprivation.
(c) Watching other people pass me by. I only get a few hours of fully awake conciousness per day, which makes it very difficult for me to follow in the footsteps of other people who are able to put a lot more work in each day than I can.
The last part is often the most depressing aspect of my condition, because I really do strive to do well-- but I can't help but feel like I will always come up short because I simply don't have nearly as much time in a day as most other people. There have been times when I've lost half of a week or more to just trying to recover from a busy weekend... it is hard, after all, to reaffirm your goals and motivate yourself when you can't move your head or arms until 3pm in the afternoon.
I flunked through high school because I couldn't stay awake. (At the time my psychologists didn't know why, and suspected my diet or depression/stress was the cause.) I've never had a job due to very realistic fears of falling asleep on the job. Unlike other disabilities which are very obviously needing assistance and special accomidations (blindness, deafness, injuries, etc), narcoleptics simply appear to be very 'lazy' people, and usually field many more angry criticisms then assistance or sympathy.
And here's where I ask advice:
What should I do? Where should I turn? What does a quiet, passive, narcoleptic programmer do to make a living? I can learn anything in a heartbeat. I'm not intimidated by any language or api, but I also know I cannot work alone. I don't have enough effective work hours per day to be able to pull that off.
Since I haven't been able to get over the hump of indie game development, I'm considering getting a part time job at the mall or something just as a start. I think I would be comfortable and capable doing that, but by no means would I be self-sufficient at that point. I also have to consider the fact that working 8+ hrs a day would leave very little personal time for myself (for exercise and what not), which in itself is not good either.
I want to be able to hold my own, and I want to be able to help my girlfriend and her two kids financially... and right now I'm afraid that I'm not physically capable of getting there. I need some advice on things I can do to prove that notion wrong.
- Air
Posted by Dexterity at 06-15-2003 06:01 PM
I've read a little about this condition, and I've seen evidence that it's linked to overconsumption of sugar, much as in diabetes. That includes table sugar (sucrose), honey, maple syrup, fructose, artificial sweeteners, any processed foods that contain sugar (almost all processed foods do), and sweet fruits. If I recall correctly, a group of narcoleptic school children saw massive improvement when all sources of sugar were removed from their diets. I don't remember the source of this info though -- it was years ago that I read this somewhere.
A great book I can recommend is The pH Miracle by Dr. Robert Young. This may give you some strong clues as to the root causes of your condition. Also his book Sick and Tired gives a more technical treatment of this topic if you're into cellular biology and want to see all the technical evidence, including photos of his blood work. Dr. Young's work is based on viewing what actually happens to our blood when we eat certain foods. One of the most controversial aspects of his research has been the discovery that our own blood cells can devolve into other lifeforms such as yeast, mold, and fungus. Such polymorphism was previously believed impossible. In cases when we become ill, Young asserts that it's due to an overly acidic bloodstream, which he believes is the source behind all known health problems.
One simple test you can do is to measure the pH of your blood to see if your blood is acidic (below pH of 7.0) or alkaline (above pH of 7.0). It should be alkaline. If it's acidic, then the narcolepsy is potentially caused by an overly acidic inner environment, which can be completely corrected with diet. If you don't want to prick yourself, you can also measure the pH of your saliva and urine. You can pick up pH strips at a local vitamin store. I recently got about 5 yards of strips for about $10. The pH of your blood should be alkaline for you to have a healthy internal environment. Cancer cells, for instance, won't grow in an alkaline environment. Of course, over 99.9% of Americans are likely to have acidic blood.
From my own understanding of this topic, I would guess that narcolepsy may be linked with an overabundance of yeast in the bloodstream. Yeast thrive on sugar, so a diet that's abundant in sugar will cause an upsurge in yeast. Yeast also thrive in an acidic environment. What may happen then is that when you eat, your blood sugar spikes for a while, but then the yeast consumes most of it, so it doesn't get to your cells. As a result you become tired and sleepy. If you're experiencing constant fatigue and tiredness, it's a safe bet that your blood is acidic.
Keep in mind that any dietary changes will take a while to kick in. For instance, when I went raw, I felt worse for the first week. This is very common, and the reason is that my blood actually became more acidic for a short time because my cells finally got a chance to release stored toxins. But then when balance returns and your blood becomes alkaline, you feel an amazing upsurge in energy.
If you tell me what you eat in a typical day, I may be able to give you some further ideas to explore. Feel free to PM me if you'd like. Almost all conditions of this sort are diet-related. The symptoms can often be treated with drugs, but drugs will never correct the underlying condition -- i.e. the original source of the imbalance. For instance, caffeine-containing items like coffee, tea, soda, and chocolate are all extremely acid forming. Consuming these foods will only further acidify the bloodstream, leading to an exacerbation of the underlying condition. Also, such foods are often high in sugar or consumed with sugary foods like pastries and cookies -- all high acidifying.
It's entirely up to you if you choose to identify with the narcolepsy and make it part of who you are, or if you maintain it as something separate and distinct... i.e. a temporary imbalance. I can't tell you what the right decision is for you, but from what I've learned I strongly believe the condition can be permanently reversed.
__________________
Steve Pavlina
Dexterity Software
www.dexterity.com
Posted by Karukef at 06-15-2003 06:03 PM
Okay, I am going to give you one option that you may consider as a way to get yourself started on deciding how YOU want to handle this. It is no actual "things a narcoleptic programmer can do", beacuse I do not know the answer to that.
The suggestion is a classic goal setting course? The one I've been listening to lately is Goals, by Zig Ziglar (try here)
I am suggesting it because it is a way I personally find to be a great way to achieve anything. The basic concept that if you want to get anywhere, you need to set goals. In your case, I would assume your goal setting require you to really decide what you want to do about your situation, and action steps to include educating yourself about your options and, well, posting on a board like this.
The facts that you are cued in on a positive community like this, and possibly on personal development methods, are probably the best help you can ever ask for.
I wish you good luck in your progress towards the goals you decide to set.
Posted by gilzu at 06-15-2003 07:26 PM
I had the same problem. Deciding what to do, that is.
I have Crohn's Disease . while it is not narcolapsy, I spend
my time more in hospitals then at home. I will not elaburate on my
condition, but I was even closer to give up than you.
I finished up Highschool, doing the finals in the hospital.
But I set myself goals, or evenmore, Plan A and Plan B.
Plan A (more realistic and practical):
-I'm in the second year learning Computed Sciences
in the Open University. I learn everything at home
from the material they send me, and all i have to do
is send works by mail, and come to the tests.
The Degree is fully recognizable, and i didnt even need
to do my finals for it.
-Meantime, i'm doing sidekick gigs (you can see in my site)
and each time build myself a reputation for doing these
kind of gigs and only accept works that can be done at
my time and from my house
Plan B (which is probably why i'm here):
-Shareware game.
I've teamed up with a friend who has another similar
Disability, and the resoult will show up in the next couple
of months (near finished, actually).
Dont give up.
there's always even more options than you think.
__________________
Gil Zussman
http://www.gilzu.com
gil@gilzu.com
Posted by Uhfgood at 06-15-2003 08:12 PM
I wish social anxiety could be cured with a change in diet ;-)
Keith
__________________
Keith Weatherby II
uhfgood@uhfgames.com
http://www.uhfgames.com
Posted by Dexterity at 06-15-2003 08:16 PM
Incidentally, Crohn's Disease (i.e. inflamation of the intestine) is 100% reversible by diet, as well as other forms of IBS (irritable bowel syndrome). One major cause of Crohn's is the consumption of baker's/brewer's yeast, found in most baked goods. Crohn's is also heavily linked to high fat, low fiber diets. A low fat, high fiber diet alone is reported to reverse about 85% of Crohn's/IBS (two different studies were done on this that I know of, both from the 1980s IIRC). Other dietary refinements (such as eliminating all yeast-containing products) can push the other 15% back to a healthy state. A good book on this subject is Colon Health by Robert Gray.
Unfortunately many doctors have been taught that Crohn's is caused by emotional disturbances, but this simply isn't the case, since diet alone is enough to reverse it completely. The emotional aspect is nothing but a symptom of the underlying imbalance. Crohn's is just one of many possible manifestations of a clogged intestinal tract, but living with Crohn's is a lifestyle choice, not an irreversible sentence. It's basically impossible to develop and maintain Crohn's unless you eat a certain way.
When my wife and I first went vegan (after being vegetarian for a while), we each lost 7-10 pounds in the first 7 days. Mostly this was from going to the bathroom, as our intestines finally had a chance to rid themselves of many pounds of built-up mucus deposited by dairy products (most of which are high fat, low fiber). And most non-vegetarians are carrying around even more than this. It's really no wonder that various forms of IBS have become so common.
__________________
Steve Pavlina
Dexterity Software
www.dexterity.com
Posted by Dexterity at 06-15-2003 08:20 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Uhfgood
I wish social anxiety could be cured with a change in diet ;-)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, to a large degree, it can. Diet has a significant impact on our emotional states. For one, the hormones found in animal products will wreak all kinds of havoc on the human endocrine system, causing you to feel a variety of emotions for seemingly no logical reason. This can perpetuate the problem by inducing excess stress, which will often cause improper breathing, thus leading to some degree of oxygen deprivation, which then induces the growth of yeast, fungus, and harmful bacteria in the bloodstream. And these anomalies can trigger a strong craving for even more destructive foods, especially those with high sugar content. So you eat the sugary food, and this further feeds the growth of these unhealthy microforms, which can leave you feeling tired, lazy, and generally in a bad mood.
__________________
Steve Pavlina
Dexterity Software
www.dexterity.com
Posted by Hydroaxe at 06-15-2003 09:07 PM
Despite newer discoveries and studies, some doctors still prescribe immune suppressant drugs or do destructive surgery on their patients' intestines. These are the kinds of doctors that don't read any further information on gastroenterology after they've become doctors and are probably on the golf course by 1600 hrs everyday. Smarter doctors know that avoiding pastas, bakery products and other refined carbohydrates can significantly reduce symptoms of IBS and Crohn's, but that's not the whole story.
The smartest doctors read the latest journals on gastroenterology and will have you avoid refined carbs, start a diet with less fat and higher in fiber, among other things and then also prescribe the antibiotics ciprofloxacin and metronidazole. The carbs only worsen the symptoms of these diseases and aren't always the main cause. Otherwise, almost everyone would have these diseases. The anitbiotics can get rid of the bacteria even without a diet change, but it's not wise for anyone to be on a diet of refined carbohydrates, especially since they cause so many additional problems for Crohn's/IBS patients.
Here's a few short articles complete with journal references:
http://www.drmirkin.com/morehealth/7985.htm
http://www.drmirkin.com/morehealth/g213.htm
http://www.drmirkin.com/morehealth/9095.html
http://www.drmirkin.com/morehealth/8122.htm
__________________
www.hydroaxe.com/
Posted by Nikster at 06-15-2003 09:08 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately many doctors have been taught that Crohn's is caused by emotional disturbances, but this simply isn't the case, since diet alone is enough to reverse it completely.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hrm, maybe this is an American thing.. because my specialist gladly said that they didn't know the cause of it and "guessed" it was down to either a bad diet and or stress and or it was hereditary, I only have a mild form of it and seeing as your convinced that it's reversable, although it's not really been proven as such, I think I may take sue my specialist for not informing me that changing my diet would cure me. BTW do you have any online links regarding this research from the 80's ?
Posted by Nikster at 06-15-2003 09:11 PM
Oh yeah.. could have been down to smoking too.