LordKronos
06-20-2003, 01:17 PM
Posted by mg_mchenry at 06-12-2003 03:30 PM
The fact I'm even asking this question is probably a sign that this is not a good idea... Ok, I'm desperate.
There's no way I can afford to pay over a grand for Macromedia Director for my first game.
I've found I can buy the older version (8.5) of the software for about $500 on E-Bay. Is this a legal thing to do?
The LGPL/free/cheap software solutions are going to cost me a lot more in the long run in both time and money. When it comes to installation issues, they may even cost me more in the short term.
I have a lot more confidence of creating a successful and reliable product on Director that always installs and runs than with any other platform. Plus, making a mac version would be a minor investment at a later time.
Posted by ggambett at 06-12-2003 03:49 PM
The LGPL/free/cheap software solutions are going to cost me a lot more in the long run in both time and money.
I disagree with this. Completely. But oh well, it's a matter of taste.
I've found I can buy the older version (8.5) of the software for about $500 on E-Bay. Is this a legal thing to do?
I guess it depends on the exact license terms - some grant you a non-transferrable license, some others don't. From a moral point of view, however, I think it's completely right.
__________________
Gabriel Gambetta
Mr.io Software
Posted by kerchen at 06-12-2003 03:54 PM
It mostly depends on the particular product's EULA: rarely I've seen software which has a EULA stating that the software is non-transferrable. More often, you might need to ask the previous owner to sign a document that says they've transferrred the software to you and that they've destroyed all copies, uninstalled it, etc., but that's probably only necessary if you're hoping to get tech support or (in the case of some Microsoft products) an activation key. Beyond that, there's no law that I'm aware of that bars reselling software. I've sold many of the retail games I no longer played on eBay without any problems.
__________________
Paul Kerchen
Whirling Chair Games, LLC
www.whirlingchair.com
Posted by LordKronos at 06-12-2003 04:06 PM
One word of warning is that some users sell their old version after purchasing an upgraded version. This isn't legal, as the license for the upgrade indicates you must be licensed for a previous version. Were you to buy a version like this, I'm not sure who would be in the wrong. Would you have the valid license, thus their upgraded version is no longer legally licensed? Or would the valid license have been transferred to the upgrade, thus the license you purchase is invalid? I'm not sure which way this would go.
__________________
Ron Frazier
Kronos software
http://www.kronos-software.com
Posted by Fenix Down at 06-12-2003 04:52 PM
Doesn't the upgrade require the original software to be installed on the computer? If this is so, the person would have to retain a copy of the original program for themselves (so they can reinstall in the future), which would be illegal on their part.
Posted by Sirrus at 06-12-2003 06:25 PM
If you plan on doing offline development of your game, I recommend Multimedia Fusion instead of Director.
It is cheaper ($100 full version) and much more powerful if your game is not full 3d (nor does it support shockwave plugin) but it has excellent capabilities and ease of use.
Alex
__________________
www.weaponstudios.com
Now featuring Dope Farmer!
Posted by z3lda at 06-12-2003 07:09 PM
MMF supports online games through the browser as well. Using a plugin called Vitalize.
John
Posted by Sirrus at 06-12-2003 08:52 PM
Right, but I think the biggest pull that Macromedia development tools have is utilizing the shockwave plugin which is default on most browsers.
Vitalize is a lot more difficult for the user, as it prompts a download and then goes through a normal installation process.
Alex
__________________
www.weaponstudios.com
Now featuring Dope Farmer!
Posted by mtaber at 06-13-2003 11:33 AM
From experience, be careful about buying a full version of Director on eBay. I paid for one the middle of last year and I got a halfway decent deal on it for a full version, never used, unopened. He asked to be paid through C2IT, so I did. Weeks went by, I never heard from him. I emailed him repeatedly, never heard anything, so I left bad feedback and reported it as credit card fraud. C2IT refused to do anything because they are a money transfer company, not a credit card company, so in the end, I had to report it to my credit card, whom I thankfully had an expanded credit fraud protection program with.
Then he left bad feedback on my ebay account, and within a week, his ebay account was shut down. For weeks afterwards, I got emails from other people he had scammed. So, my warning is this. If you buy it, be careful and do your homework. Second, don't pay for it using C2IT. They're really not friendly to the customer who's been scammed by someone using their service.
__________________
Mike Taber
Game Thoughts
www.gamethoughts.com
Posted by mg_mchenry at 06-13-2003 12:30 PM
Wow. Thanks for the warning, mtaber! How did you eventually get Director, and did you release a game with it?
I'm still considering buying director from E-bay from everything everyone has said, but I'll be carefull about it.
I'm interested in the idea that MMF is more powerful. I spent some time on clickteam's website looking into their products.
They often repeat this idea: "results with no programming skills or knowledge required."
I've been programming for 15 years, and I've got lots of skills and knowledge. What does MMF do for me? One of the things I know is that installation issues are going to be my biggest problem and that for a 3d engine, supporting all the different cards and drivers is the biggest problem.
The reason I use Director is that:
1) Installation is never a problem. My one exe will run on any PC.
2) I don't have to pretend that I don't know how to program. Lingo lets me do the object-oriented programming I want to do.
3) They have great vendor support, community, and name recognition.
When you can program, programming is the most effective way to get what you want.
But clickteam has another product, Jamagic.
Jamagic is $99, has an ECMA script-style language, and supports 3d. This seems like a great option.
Does anyone else have any experience with this product?
Posted by Karima at 06-13-2003 12:39 PM
The question if this is legal also depends on where you are located.
In Germany it's perfectly legal to sell and buy used shelfware software. Microsoft lost a case on this and now even OEM software can be sold and bought.
If you are located somewhere in the European Union your laws are probably similar.
For high price software like developer tools you can use an escrow service to minimize the risk.
__________________
Sandra Erb
Lobstersoft - Non-violent logic games for all ages
sandra@lobstersoft.com
www.lobstersoft.com
Posted by ggambett at 06-13-2003 12:41 PM
1) Installation is never a problem. My one exe will run on any PC.
Any PC with Windows (ok, you can make a projector for Mac, too). PC != Windows. 95%, maybe. But I'm one of the guys who believe this trend is reverting, and soon the world will be a better linux-powered world.
__________________
Gabriel Gambetta
Mr.io Software
Posted by Mike Boeh at 06-13-2003 01:33 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2) I don't have to pretend that I don't know how to program. Lingo lets me do the object-oriented programming I want to do.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since when is Lingo object oriented? Seriously, I have made several games in Director and I can honestly tell you that it is the WORST language I have ever worked in. Forget about object oriented, it doesn't even support user defined types. The closest thing it has to types are property arrays. And don't even get me started on that thing they call a text editor!
Despite my complete distaste for it, I had considered using Director3D to do games in the future- because of its cross platform nature. But the performance was too bad to even consider using it. It would be okay for 2D.
I suggest you spend the time learning something else- it will save you money in the long run!
But if you have already made up your mind about using Director, I would not get it off of ebay.
__________________
--
Mike Boeh
Retro64, Inc.
Downloadable Games
Posted by Fenix Down at 06-13-2003 01:58 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ggambett
1) Installation is never a problem. My one exe will run on any PC.
Any PC with Windows (ok, you can make a projector for Mac, too). PC != Windows. 95%, maybe. But I'm one of the guys who believe this trend is reverting, and soon the world will be a better linux-powered world.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not going to happen unless Linux gets to the same level of user friendlyness as Windows, plus it needs to have all the hardware support. So far the most user friendly distribution I've tried was Mandrake, but it was version 8.1 (amazingly it had simpler installation than Windows). I have to try the latest one sometime. Still, it didn't have drivers for my onboard sound card, so I had to get a Sound Blaster Live Value to get sound on Linux. Their excuse was that the company who makes the audio chip doesn't want to open up the hardware specifications and that they couldn't make drivers because of that. The problem is that the average consumer doesn't give a crap about these things. If something doesn't work it's Linux' fault, and there goes its credibility.
Posted by mg_mchenry at 06-14-2003 01:59 AM
Without using a compiled language, I'm afraid lingo is about as OO as it gets. It doesn't have strong typing or encapsulation (biggest shortfall), but it lets you follow OO design principals.
For this project I want a RAD tool that will let me program to my heart's content when I need to.
I feel about Lingo much the way I do about Perl. If you have some coding discipline, you can write great perl code. If you've never seen a programming language before, you can use it to make a real mess.
The problem with ECMA script is inheritance. Lingo gives you a passable form of it, though it requires more discipline to take full advantage of it.
Posted by hanford_lemoore at 06-14-2003 04:00 PM
Mike, what kind of speed tests did you do with Director3d? Sometimes it defaults to a software renderer and it's super slow.
I've always thought that Director3d was slow too, but recently I've wondered if it just wasn't that I had the shockwave plugin configured wrong (software rendering) because I tried some more shockwave 3d movies and they were running pretty fast.
~Hanford
__________________
Rocknor's Bad Day
http://www.monolux.com
Posted by mg_mchenry at 06-16-2003 10:58 AM
I've just done some basic 3D stuff with director. It is a lot faster when you specify accelerated rendering, and games can run at really fast framerates.
I'm working on a 2D application right now.
I haven't made up my mind on Director for 3d projects. I've got a 3d project planned for the next 1-2 years, but it has some features that I don't think will work well in Director.
I'm not sure if (and I doubt that) Director has an adequate scene graph for my purposes, support for bsp trees.
On the other hand, it has a lot of features (like a built-in scripting language, and network support) that I do plan to use.
Also, I'm on 8.5. I haven't tried MX yet.
I'm thinking that using SDL on this project instead of Director would be an investment toward later projects and a reason to spend the extra time on it.
I checked out Jamagic yesterday, and as great an idea as it is, I don't think it's a professional enough platform to trust my first game to. Plus every thing I've learned about Director over the last 5 years, I would have to learn again with this product.
Java is an intriguing option, but not really feasable for me right now.
It looks like it's down to Director or C++ with SDL. I have to make my choice this week to stay on schedule.
If I do decide on Director, I most likely will try to get it for $500 off of e-bay.
Out of curiosity, can you tell me what Rocknor's Bad Day was developed in? It looks like my girlfriend may soon be one of your customers. She liked that one quite a bit. Do you have any other games in the works?
The fact I'm even asking this question is probably a sign that this is not a good idea... Ok, I'm desperate.
There's no way I can afford to pay over a grand for Macromedia Director for my first game.
I've found I can buy the older version (8.5) of the software for about $500 on E-Bay. Is this a legal thing to do?
The LGPL/free/cheap software solutions are going to cost me a lot more in the long run in both time and money. When it comes to installation issues, they may even cost me more in the short term.
I have a lot more confidence of creating a successful and reliable product on Director that always installs and runs than with any other platform. Plus, making a mac version would be a minor investment at a later time.
Posted by ggambett at 06-12-2003 03:49 PM
The LGPL/free/cheap software solutions are going to cost me a lot more in the long run in both time and money.
I disagree with this. Completely. But oh well, it's a matter of taste.
I've found I can buy the older version (8.5) of the software for about $500 on E-Bay. Is this a legal thing to do?
I guess it depends on the exact license terms - some grant you a non-transferrable license, some others don't. From a moral point of view, however, I think it's completely right.
__________________
Gabriel Gambetta
Mr.io Software
Posted by kerchen at 06-12-2003 03:54 PM
It mostly depends on the particular product's EULA: rarely I've seen software which has a EULA stating that the software is non-transferrable. More often, you might need to ask the previous owner to sign a document that says they've transferrred the software to you and that they've destroyed all copies, uninstalled it, etc., but that's probably only necessary if you're hoping to get tech support or (in the case of some Microsoft products) an activation key. Beyond that, there's no law that I'm aware of that bars reselling software. I've sold many of the retail games I no longer played on eBay without any problems.
__________________
Paul Kerchen
Whirling Chair Games, LLC
www.whirlingchair.com
Posted by LordKronos at 06-12-2003 04:06 PM
One word of warning is that some users sell their old version after purchasing an upgraded version. This isn't legal, as the license for the upgrade indicates you must be licensed for a previous version. Were you to buy a version like this, I'm not sure who would be in the wrong. Would you have the valid license, thus their upgraded version is no longer legally licensed? Or would the valid license have been transferred to the upgrade, thus the license you purchase is invalid? I'm not sure which way this would go.
__________________
Ron Frazier
Kronos software
http://www.kronos-software.com
Posted by Fenix Down at 06-12-2003 04:52 PM
Doesn't the upgrade require the original software to be installed on the computer? If this is so, the person would have to retain a copy of the original program for themselves (so they can reinstall in the future), which would be illegal on their part.
Posted by Sirrus at 06-12-2003 06:25 PM
If you plan on doing offline development of your game, I recommend Multimedia Fusion instead of Director.
It is cheaper ($100 full version) and much more powerful if your game is not full 3d (nor does it support shockwave plugin) but it has excellent capabilities and ease of use.
Alex
__________________
www.weaponstudios.com
Now featuring Dope Farmer!
Posted by z3lda at 06-12-2003 07:09 PM
MMF supports online games through the browser as well. Using a plugin called Vitalize.
John
Posted by Sirrus at 06-12-2003 08:52 PM
Right, but I think the biggest pull that Macromedia development tools have is utilizing the shockwave plugin which is default on most browsers.
Vitalize is a lot more difficult for the user, as it prompts a download and then goes through a normal installation process.
Alex
__________________
www.weaponstudios.com
Now featuring Dope Farmer!
Posted by mtaber at 06-13-2003 11:33 AM
From experience, be careful about buying a full version of Director on eBay. I paid for one the middle of last year and I got a halfway decent deal on it for a full version, never used, unopened. He asked to be paid through C2IT, so I did. Weeks went by, I never heard from him. I emailed him repeatedly, never heard anything, so I left bad feedback and reported it as credit card fraud. C2IT refused to do anything because they are a money transfer company, not a credit card company, so in the end, I had to report it to my credit card, whom I thankfully had an expanded credit fraud protection program with.
Then he left bad feedback on my ebay account, and within a week, his ebay account was shut down. For weeks afterwards, I got emails from other people he had scammed. So, my warning is this. If you buy it, be careful and do your homework. Second, don't pay for it using C2IT. They're really not friendly to the customer who's been scammed by someone using their service.
__________________
Mike Taber
Game Thoughts
www.gamethoughts.com
Posted by mg_mchenry at 06-13-2003 12:30 PM
Wow. Thanks for the warning, mtaber! How did you eventually get Director, and did you release a game with it?
I'm still considering buying director from E-bay from everything everyone has said, but I'll be carefull about it.
I'm interested in the idea that MMF is more powerful. I spent some time on clickteam's website looking into their products.
They often repeat this idea: "results with no programming skills or knowledge required."
I've been programming for 15 years, and I've got lots of skills and knowledge. What does MMF do for me? One of the things I know is that installation issues are going to be my biggest problem and that for a 3d engine, supporting all the different cards and drivers is the biggest problem.
The reason I use Director is that:
1) Installation is never a problem. My one exe will run on any PC.
2) I don't have to pretend that I don't know how to program. Lingo lets me do the object-oriented programming I want to do.
3) They have great vendor support, community, and name recognition.
When you can program, programming is the most effective way to get what you want.
But clickteam has another product, Jamagic.
Jamagic is $99, has an ECMA script-style language, and supports 3d. This seems like a great option.
Does anyone else have any experience with this product?
Posted by Karima at 06-13-2003 12:39 PM
The question if this is legal also depends on where you are located.
In Germany it's perfectly legal to sell and buy used shelfware software. Microsoft lost a case on this and now even OEM software can be sold and bought.
If you are located somewhere in the European Union your laws are probably similar.
For high price software like developer tools you can use an escrow service to minimize the risk.
__________________
Sandra Erb
Lobstersoft - Non-violent logic games for all ages
sandra@lobstersoft.com
www.lobstersoft.com
Posted by ggambett at 06-13-2003 12:41 PM
1) Installation is never a problem. My one exe will run on any PC.
Any PC with Windows (ok, you can make a projector for Mac, too). PC != Windows. 95%, maybe. But I'm one of the guys who believe this trend is reverting, and soon the world will be a better linux-powered world.
__________________
Gabriel Gambetta
Mr.io Software
Posted by Mike Boeh at 06-13-2003 01:33 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2) I don't have to pretend that I don't know how to program. Lingo lets me do the object-oriented programming I want to do.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since when is Lingo object oriented? Seriously, I have made several games in Director and I can honestly tell you that it is the WORST language I have ever worked in. Forget about object oriented, it doesn't even support user defined types. The closest thing it has to types are property arrays. And don't even get me started on that thing they call a text editor!
Despite my complete distaste for it, I had considered using Director3D to do games in the future- because of its cross platform nature. But the performance was too bad to even consider using it. It would be okay for 2D.
I suggest you spend the time learning something else- it will save you money in the long run!
But if you have already made up your mind about using Director, I would not get it off of ebay.
__________________
--
Mike Boeh
Retro64, Inc.
Downloadable Games
Posted by Fenix Down at 06-13-2003 01:58 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ggambett
1) Installation is never a problem. My one exe will run on any PC.
Any PC with Windows (ok, you can make a projector for Mac, too). PC != Windows. 95%, maybe. But I'm one of the guys who believe this trend is reverting, and soon the world will be a better linux-powered world.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not going to happen unless Linux gets to the same level of user friendlyness as Windows, plus it needs to have all the hardware support. So far the most user friendly distribution I've tried was Mandrake, but it was version 8.1 (amazingly it had simpler installation than Windows). I have to try the latest one sometime. Still, it didn't have drivers for my onboard sound card, so I had to get a Sound Blaster Live Value to get sound on Linux. Their excuse was that the company who makes the audio chip doesn't want to open up the hardware specifications and that they couldn't make drivers because of that. The problem is that the average consumer doesn't give a crap about these things. If something doesn't work it's Linux' fault, and there goes its credibility.
Posted by mg_mchenry at 06-14-2003 01:59 AM
Without using a compiled language, I'm afraid lingo is about as OO as it gets. It doesn't have strong typing or encapsulation (biggest shortfall), but it lets you follow OO design principals.
For this project I want a RAD tool that will let me program to my heart's content when I need to.
I feel about Lingo much the way I do about Perl. If you have some coding discipline, you can write great perl code. If you've never seen a programming language before, you can use it to make a real mess.
The problem with ECMA script is inheritance. Lingo gives you a passable form of it, though it requires more discipline to take full advantage of it.
Posted by hanford_lemoore at 06-14-2003 04:00 PM
Mike, what kind of speed tests did you do with Director3d? Sometimes it defaults to a software renderer and it's super slow.
I've always thought that Director3d was slow too, but recently I've wondered if it just wasn't that I had the shockwave plugin configured wrong (software rendering) because I tried some more shockwave 3d movies and they were running pretty fast.
~Hanford
__________________
Rocknor's Bad Day
http://www.monolux.com
Posted by mg_mchenry at 06-16-2003 10:58 AM
I've just done some basic 3D stuff with director. It is a lot faster when you specify accelerated rendering, and games can run at really fast framerates.
I'm working on a 2D application right now.
I haven't made up my mind on Director for 3d projects. I've got a 3d project planned for the next 1-2 years, but it has some features that I don't think will work well in Director.
I'm not sure if (and I doubt that) Director has an adequate scene graph for my purposes, support for bsp trees.
On the other hand, it has a lot of features (like a built-in scripting language, and network support) that I do plan to use.
Also, I'm on 8.5. I haven't tried MX yet.
I'm thinking that using SDL on this project instead of Director would be an investment toward later projects and a reason to spend the extra time on it.
I checked out Jamagic yesterday, and as great an idea as it is, I don't think it's a professional enough platform to trust my first game to. Plus every thing I've learned about Director over the last 5 years, I would have to learn again with this product.
Java is an intriguing option, but not really feasable for me right now.
It looks like it's down to Director or C++ with SDL. I have to make my choice this week to stay on schedule.
If I do decide on Director, I most likely will try to get it for $500 off of e-bay.
Out of curiosity, can you tell me what Rocknor's Bad Day was developed in? It looks like my girlfriend may soon be one of your customers. She liked that one quite a bit. Do you have any other games in the works?