The other day we had some guys come by to cut down and remove a dead tree from our yard. They were self-employed and I thought for a second that they might be more likely to appreciate an entrepreneurial spirit and I might mention my game to them.. ..I might get a new customer!

Then my conscious kicked in and I realised how I'd probably not take the time to approach these guys just to be friendly (I'm not a very outgoing person), but I was considering approaching them to pitch my game. And that didn't feel just right.

As I get deeper into this shareware business I find myself having to think more and more like a salesman and that's a very uncomfortable feeling for me because, like a lot of folks, 'salesman' has always been pretty synonymous with 'scumbag'. Anytime you compromise your own personal ethics in order to make money, its kind of like prostitution somehow.

So I've tried to keep a keen eye on my metamorphosis from thinking 'salesmen are scum' to myself being an 'honorable business man' to make sure that I don't make any changes too rapidly and compromise what I believe is right.

The question is that I'm curious to know how the rest of you deal with this. Is this negative stereotype of salesman something that your familiar with? Does it bother you to become that? If so, what efforts do you make not to become a 'salesman'? What issues arise in the process of pursuing shareware success where you're most tempted or most likely to compromise your ethics for the almighty dollar?

Sales rule the world. You can have the best game in the world, but if you don't get other people to see it, then you aren't going to sell to anyone beyond your immediate family (mom's will always buy, they're just great).

On the other hand, a good salesman can always move a shoddy product.

Sales by themselves aren't bad or scummy. If you are an honest businessman, who is selling a quality product, and doing what you can to make sure your customers are happy, then sales are a good (may I even say noble?) profession.

Back in college I had a door-to-door sales job. I hated it because I felt exactly like you said, "salesmen are scum". I was surprised to see the difference in response I would get just from my own delivery. It's true, the pushiest salesmen did make the most sales, but I did alright with a smile on my face and simply presenting the information for the person to make an educated decision. If they gave a reason for not wanting it, I would give a valid rebuttal, but without being pushy about it.

If you're product is good, or in this case, they won't know until they go home and check out your game, you can make a sale simply by introducing the person to your product. There's definitely not anything scummy about that, that's just good business!

A better example is when a long lost friend from high school calls and chats with you for a few minutes and then hits you with "Let me tell you about my multi-level-marketing scam..". You know they don't care a bit in the world about how you're doing, but rather, they're only seeing dollar signs. You're being used, and they just failed what I think is an important test in business ethics.

I think the 'salesmen are scum' sterotype is primarily due to door to door salesmen and telemarketers. Both of them I slam the door in their face / hang up on. But I'm probably just a bit extreme. I agree, trying to sell something you produce to a couple of self employed guys who are doing a job for you is probably not the most ethical of activies. But selling things to people through normal marketing mediums is perfectly fine =0

I agree, trying to sell something you produce to a couple of self employed guys who are doing a job for you is probably not the most ethical of activies



There is nothing unethical about that! The real skill is to do it in such a way that it seems natural. I think that APE had the right idea at the beginning: to just go out and "talk shop" about being independent. Mention the project and see if they play games, if they do, then they'll probably ask to see it. If they aren't interested in games, you can still chat about the joys and woes of being self-employed. If you are a friendly and interesting person up front, then the sales stuff happens pretty much automatically.

I don't really see the similarity. In your case, you aren't knocking on their door, calling them, or spamming them. You have a demo that they voluntarily download, and if they like it, they can upgrade. It's much like a free sample of perfume at a cosmetics counter of a department store. Your website and demo are certainly sales vehicles, but not in the same way as other kinds of sales. To me, it's apples and oranges- you certainly don't have to be a sleezy salesman to sell games online.

I would avoid bringing up your games to people. I'm sure you are excited and it's always on your mind, but don't expect people to understand. I have never once "pitched" my games to someone. Going after one sale from someone in "real life" isn't going to affect your business anyway. I never even talk about Retro64 to my acquaintances, friends, or extended family unless asked first.

Actually, it's kind of funny. Only my wife and father really understand what I do. The more educated family and friends think I am a consultant. Others think I am unemployed and keep telling me about "their friend's brother's uncle's former roommate" who has a job opening "in computers". And others say this, "boy, i wish i could stay at home and play video games all day- must be nice!"

I just kind of shrug off whatever they say and change the subject to sports (fantasy football) or something :)

Originally posted by Mike Boeh
Going after one sale from someone in "real life" isn't going to affect your business anyway.

I think I disagree -- face-to-face communication with one person can affect your business in a very strong way.

But you have to address it on a different level than just making sales. If you are thinking like a salesman and you really, personally think that salesmen are shiftless scumbags, you aren't helping yourself make sales. Besides, those impressions are generally formed from the constant barrage we all get of high-pressure tactics used when selling used cars or mattresses or living room furniture or shoes.

What you must do, is have an in-the-trenches attitude about fostering customers. You don't do that with sales in a face-to-face manner (not with software anyway); you do it with marketing. And in your case a little guerrilla marketing is in order [man, ever since Levinson coined the term, I just love it more and more!!!]. If you had gone out there and tried to tell those guys who were busy doing physical labor about how you have this cool game that you think they'll like, they'd just stare at you blankly. They're not thinking about playing video games right now and it would probably take the brain quite a while to shift gears from hard physical labor into playing computer games. That's not something you want to try and do. But, there is a solution... (are you ready for this?)...

GIVE THEM YOUR GAMES FOR FREE!!!

Oh dear, I've said the 'F' word!!! But think of it this way: no matter how hard you tried to convince them they would enjoy your software, they're in the middle of a work day and they've got other stuff on their mind. BUT, if you give them a CD/R with one fully licensed game and demos of ALL your other games, they'll take it home, and they'll play it and they might even register some of the others. Certainly, they'll probably provide you with better word-of-mouth advertising to their circle of influence than 1000 hits to your website would provide. And if they end up not being a big fan of your games, they might just give the CD to their kid brother, who's quite the whiz, and loves games and registers all the trial versions.

And this isn't the only method of GM... Perhaps you live in a smallish town with a local computer buff club. Join. Go to the meetings. Give the members discounts. Take CDRs with demos to all the meetings. Tell them you'll give them kickbacks (er, incentives) if they mention your games to their family and friends.

Maybe try and make a deal with a local computer repair shop to distribute your demo disks to all their customers. Heck, do the same sort of thing - one free game and demos for all the others.

This isn't sales. And it's certainly won't make you feel "icky" inside. :D It's marketing. It's educating people. It's thinking like a guerrilla (http://www.gmarketing.com/).

And for goodness sake, don't be overt when dealing face-to-face. Just slip in the CDR, and say something like, "Here, these are some games that my company makes for the computer. You might like them. If not, give the CD to your [kids/mom/friend/etc]." Make sure the CDs look professional, and they're in a jewel case (even a slimline) with an insert -- no paper sleaves!

Lastly, people enjoy playing computer games. Don't think of what you're doing in terms of selling them something they don't need. Think of it in terms of providing them with an entertainment outlet -- after all that's what your website does, right? It should just be an extension of your company, which is an extension of you...

-daniel

We will have to agree to disagree, DCoder. I think the local, face to face, mindset is just too small-scale. I think efforts are better spent elsewhere. If you want to create buzz and word-of-mouth, the only way to do it is to make a great game.

I know it sounds good to say, "Get in the trenches", and most people would probably agree with you. But there are many kinds of trenches to get into, and I feel there are much more important ones than that.

I don't want to confuse this with not providing great customer service and support. We typically return support emails within 2 hours, and always do our absolute best to help someone, whether or not they have purchased a game.

I think giving a product free to someone who would enjoy it but not necessarily buy it can really help sells as it start word of mouth advertisements in a new circle of people. I am working on a game that I think has some education value. I think I will give the game to school for free or discount prices in hopes that this will make the children go home and get their parents to buy them a copy of the game for home.

It all comes down to genuinely believing in the benefits of your products.

If you don't really believe in your own products... if you secretly believe that people would be better off without them... if you think you're only wasting people's time... if you think that the only way you'll make sales is by getting people to buy something that they really shouldn't... then you'll subconsciously sabotage yourself. You'll never go the extra mile to market and sell your games, and when you write your sales copy and your product descriptions, your text will silently reflect the belief that your products aren't really that good. Prospective customers will get the message, and most of the customers you do attract will be the suckers you expect, and you won't respect them. You may also feel a certain degree of guilt, wondering if you're leeching off society by taking more than you're giving back.

But on the other hand, if you honestly and truly believe that your products provide real and tangible benefits to people, then you're never pushing people to buy. Instead, you're giving them a gift.

This belief is what compelled me to enthusiastically market Dweep full-time for six months after I first released it. Instead of trying to get people to buy, I was giving people a gift of happiness. I was fighting Alzheimer's and staving off mental illness (see http://www.google.com/search?q=alzheimer's+games for proof). I was bringing grandparents and grandchildren closer together, cheering up hospital patients, and generating donations for my favorite charities. The initial price of the game was only $9.95, and considering all the potential benefits, I thought that was an excellent value. As a result of this belief system, I had a burning desire to push the game as much as possible. It wasn't the money that motivated me; it was the idea of the game actually making a positive difference. Possibly by now the game has even helped save someone's life.

I realize this may sound like a stretch into a self-delusional reality, but think about how you'd market and sell your products if you had total faith in the value they gave to people. I know from experience that this belief system is empowering, while the opposite belief system is disempowering. I even have family members who are paying customers. I don't feel guilty about this because I know they gain far more from each transaction than I do.

Here's the source code:

for( ; ; )
{
if( $pitching_games == $being_friendly )
{
pitch_games();
close_sales();
delight_customers();
inc_bank_balance();
delight_referrals_from_customers();
inc_bank_balance( BIGTIME );
}
else
{
competitors_pitch_games();
competitors_close_sales();
competitors_delight_customers();
competitors_inc_bank_balance();
competitors_delight_referrals_from_customers();
competitors_inc_bank_balance( BIGTIME );
}
}

We definitely would not see much of a "is sales ethical" debate on most sites!

I'm with Mike though, local word of mouth simply isnt worth the effort (more than being polite).

If you want to make a living and venture further than a few local sales to relatives and friends, then you HAVE to become some kind of salesperson/PR for your games.

No-one knows your games unless you tell them.

My favourite indie adage:

"Its not who you know, but who knows you"

Man, thats waaaay beyond true.

I'm personally planning (when I finally blow off work and go full-time into my own development) to sell like a beeatch. I'm going to schmooze as much as possible to try and raise my personal profile, not because I want any kind of fame or recognition per-se, but more because I NEED people to know me, my games and have some form of association.

Even if it disturbs you, you should think about how youre going to market your games in the longer term. If youre unhappy about doing it yourself, then go through a games aggregator such as Real Arcade.

I'm planning to go my own way with this one, I figure years of professional development should count for a TEENY bit of press kudos, maybe enough to blag some more.

.Z.

Originally posted by zoombapup
I'm with Mike though, local word of mouth simply isnt worth the effort (more than being polite). As hokey as this is going to sound, you all should definitely consider the success of Jay Van Andel and Rich DeVos. They started a small company in 1959 selling their franchise idea, along with a bottle of cleaning fluid. It was all person-to-person, and in the first year of business generated over $500,000 in sales (that's 1959 dollars!!!). Today, Amway and it's parent, Alticor, generate over $4 billion in sales.

I'm no spokesman for Amway. I don't sell their stuff, or buy into their schtick. But person-to-person exposure cannot be underestimated.

You can't assume that your only outlet for evangelism is online. Everybody you meet, either online or in person knows everybody else. What if that tree doctor that APE originally hired had a brother who was a major publisher of independent games (say Ambrosia or some such). Or perhaps not even so glamorous -- maybe his cousin is the lady who builds the CD that gets shipped out every month with SuperComputerGamer magazine or some such.

If I take a handful of CDRs with my demos on them to the next CapMac meeting (local Apple user group in Austin), then I'm personally exposing my game to a whole set of people who may or may not have considered giving it even a first glance otherwise. And seeing as how there's at least one AAA Mac publisher in Austin (Aspyr), that *might* generate visibility that I wouldn't mind having. Plus I build exposure with local customers, who can potentially provide me with a great deal of value in the future. I'd much rather have local beta or play testers that I can sit down with and witness.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing in favor of wasting time. Far from it. What I'm really saying (even more than trying to sell face-to-face) is that you've got to look for opportunity. You sometimes can't tell that you're looking at a diamond because it's surrounded by lignite. You have to have a mindset that there are always opportunities for exposure. Even if it's just a little. It shouldn't cost you much extra, should it? Definitely not.

<cliche>
Every customer is a good customer.
</cliche>

:D

-daniel

Heh, I can see the 'sleazy salesmen' aspect you refer to, but for me, the 'sleazy salesmen' have always been those people who are acting as middle-men selling someone else's goods without having developed them/designed them/used them themselves. Typcal sleazy salesmen would include the dodgy used-car salesmen, those involved in those pyramid selling schemes, life insurance salesmen etc.

Salesmen who are selling their own products are in an entirely different league as far as I have always been concerned and I've rarely hung up the phone/slammed the door on this type.


As for selling to 'John Doe' who you meet in a bar or wherever. Why not? Sure, don't waste time on it, but if you are already talking and the conversation gives it the chance, why not take it. Give him a business card with your web site url on. He might not be too interested, but he might mention it to someone else, who in turn, might then look at the web site and downlaod the demo.

I wouldn't waste time or go out of my way to sell to 'John Doe', but if the opportunity affords itself, you're surely better off taking it than talking about the weather or who won the ball game last night.


-Z-

I agree with Steve P (albeit in a slightly less touchy feely sort of way ;)). More and more people are being turned into little more than human machines. Working 12 hour days sat in a cubicle, not producing anything, not building anything, just basically shifting numbers from one column into another for the purpose of making money for whatever company they work for. Just going through the motions of life, and hating it a little more each day.

So many people are suffering depression, boredom, anger, etc. that it's having a serious negative impact on society. That's why I make games. I want to spend my time actually creating something, not just generating wealth. And I want the thing I create to help combat this "WORK WORK WORK" mentality that is so prevelant today. So when it comes time to sell the game, I have absolutely no problem at all taking on the role of a salesman because what I am selling is something good, positive, beneficial, fun, relaxing, and interesting that will make these people's lives just that little bit better.

Games - My weapon of choice in the fight against the corporate mentality! :)

I think you shouldn't waste your time. So is spending all your time just doing face-to-face marketing a waste? Probably not, but there are probably other ways to spend your time that would acheive more results. That having been said, take every opportunity that is handed to you. When you find yourself in conversation with someone else, why not seize the opportunity? Sure, it might not make all the difference, but it will likely make SOME difference. And it is always possible that it COULD make a world of difference. For example....

Ever heard of the six-degrees idea? This theory states that every person on the world is connected to every other person in the world by no more than six "connections". That is, I know X, who knows Y, who knows Z. Therefore, I am only 3 degrees away from Z. Now we all know that whether this idea is literally true in all cases, this principle is very often seen to be true. I know I've run into people who I later found out had a brother-in-law who was in game publishing, etc.. So if you hand your game to someone and make a good impression, that impression just might carry you enough degrees out from that person's sphere of influence to reach a valuable contact. When you consider that the game could easily be passed by word of mouth through at least a couple of "degrees," it's easy to see that if you take enough opportunities that life regularly deals you, you could very likely make one of those "golden" connections that you'd never have made just from your website.

As for feeling sleazy when promoting your product, I agree with Steve Pavlina on this. I think it could be summed up as whether or not you are really a capitalist. By "capitalist" I mean a true believer in capitalism. If you really believe in capitalism, then you believe that mutual self interest (which is the basis of any sale) will make the world a better place. And you really must have this mentality if you want to have a successful business. Otherwise you'll think you're scamming people and you'll feel guilty. Don't beleive that lie! You are not forcing anyone to buy your product. The only people who buy your product are people who have decided that it will enrich their lives to a certain degree to have your product as part of their lives. And in the process, your own life is enriched, not only by the money, but also by knowing that you've made someone else's life just a little bit better. To me, this is what true capitalism is all about. Mutual self interest and the resulting mutual benefit.

Recently I was thinking of my affiliates, and it occurred to me that in this particular capitalistic relationship, the mutual benefits are 3-way rather than the usual 2. Think about it: When you sell your product through an affiliate, you are helping them get by, the person who purchased the product must have also decided that your product would enrich their lives to a certain extent, and then, finally, your own life is improved by all of this taking place. So now *3* people's lives are better in a single transaction all because of you.

I do try to follow the Golden Rule (Do unto others as you'd have them do to you). So I personally decide not to do "cold calling" when people are eating dinner and other such intrusive sales tactics that I know I don't like people doing to me. I feel like such practices detract from my life rather than enriching it. So I don't see any point in doing the same to others. But if you're not doing anything that will detract from people's lives, you have nothing to fear and nothing of which you should be ashamed! Here's a funny toungue-in-cheek way of looking at all of this:

Let's say God gives everybody points every time they enrich someone's life. The more enrichment they give, the more points they receive. If you enrich 100 people's lives in a very small way, it is equivelant to enriching 1 person's life in a BIG way. So given this kind of "game", who do you think will be recognized in Heaven as being the most benevolent person at the end of the world? Most likely it will be a person who developed a good product, who marketted it well, and who sold millions (or billions) of units! Who knows, when you get to Heaven you might see a game developer's name on the Big Scoreboard in the Sky! Maybe it'll be your name? :-)

Its not clear to me exactly what Steve's Hospital distribution method was, but here's what I think would be honorable, in this hospital example:

1. Give a full game away for free, with no mention of your other demos.

2. Give part of a game away, with no nag screens, or other BuyMeNow! material.

On the web, folks know they're in front of advertising. Just by getting on the web, they're giving permission to anyone to try and win their attention. Market your heart out I say! Get all the business you can. But in a social situation, meeting an old friend, or in a hospital, your suposed to be there to meet people and share ideas, not pitch games or make money. They're not expecting to become targets of advertising, and when they do, that's a very dirty feeling. Perhaps this is a social etiquette. Mabey its a southern thing.

$pitching_games == $being_friendly. Yikes! Does that mean these things are interchangeable? Whereas if a == b, then 'a' applies in all the situations that 'b' applies in? Once you introduce a non-free exchange into a friendly relationship, you change things drastically as each side becomes defensive about what their offer is worth. To give something to a friend or acquaintence is great, but to expect something back or, (through advertising) make them think you might expect something back, makes them go to the effort of "do I want this? am I obligated to him? is it worth it?" and that's a fatigueing thought. Note: I'm the tightest of tight-wads when it comes to spending money, so my views here are slightly skewed.

Perhaps if the deal is very lop-sided "I'll give you a new car if you give me $20.", then its no too hard of a decision to make. A game for 10-20 dollars is a harder decision, even if you do like the demo, there's other things to do with that money and you have to decide what you want more. If buying a shareware game was a deal that was drastically lopsided in favor of the customer, wouldn't registration rates be higher than 2%?

I do appreciate the social-sales avenue this thread has explored, but can anyone shed light on my initial question: "What issues arise in the process of pursuing shareware success where you're most tempted or most likely to compromise your ethics for the almighty dollar?"

$pitching_games == $being_friendly. Yikes!

I wouldn't put it quite like that... "Pitching" sounds more like what a used car salesman does when you drive on the lot. At least when I referred to taking advantage of person-to-person opportunities, I meant in a very tasteful and natural way -- not "Hi, old friend, wanna buy a game?"

Let's say you see an old friend from days gone by (not the show). It's quite likely you'll ask eachother what you're doing these days. Just say, here's what I'm doing and then as a friendly gesture, give him a copy of your game. Or as an even more friendly gesture, give him a free registered copy. So yes, this kind of "pitch" is definitely friendly. Even moreso because it's not really a "pitch" at all.

Back on the thing about person-to-person contacts being effective, I just read in another thread about how a whole bunch of gamers at a LAN party started playing Bridge Builder all because of one guy who had it on his machine. Let's say that one guy was the nephew of the guy who came to trim the trees. So you give it to the tree guy, he gives it to his nephew, his nephew plays it at the LAN party, 300 people start playing it at the LAN party, a reporter for some game magazine, or on-line game news site decides to make mention of this in his report of the LAN party... next thing you know, you've got to find a new web host because your old one can't handle the traffic! All because you were nice to the guy trimming your tree. Sure, not all personal contact will end this way, but you never know which ones will and which ones won't.

Originally posted by Punchey
Let's say God gives everybody points every time they enrich someone's life. The more enrichment they give, the more points they receive...

Another way to put that...I was watching an episode of Joy of Painting by Bob Ross (that artist guy with the afro that shows how easy it is to paint...he's usually on PBS). He had a theory (can't remember who he said he got it from) that you can achieve any goal in life if you just help enough people achieve their goals first. It certainly worked for him. He took the time to show people how easy it is to paint, and all the tricks you can use. He made the TV shows for PBS, so I'm sure he wasn't making a killing off of it. However, he helped enough people and his popularity just took off. He came out with all these videos you can buy, and stuff like that. I'm sure he made a pretty penny off of it all. But his entire success snowballed from just helping other people.

That's a good anecdote, LordKronos! Thanks. Yes, success comes more often by genuinely pleasing people than from trying to wrest something out of people. This is one of the misconceptions people have about capitalism in general - that it's all about screwing the other guy to get ahead. In real capitalism, this simply doesn't work. If you want to get ahead, you really have to give people what they want and make them truly happy with what you're giving them. Someone who just wants to cheat and screw other people over won't get far. And those who by some odd chance do are in the minority.

So this pretty much lines up with what you said. To put it more generally: to make yourself happy, you must also make others happy. Conversely, if you bring nothing but grief to others, you cannot expect happiness to come to you. It's just the way the World(TM) works.

Originally posted by Punchey
Let's say you see an old friend from days gone by (not the show). It's quite likely you'll ask each other what you're doing these days.
And that's where we have an advantage. We make games. We don't file paperwork all day, or mop floors, or even write database tools. We make games! That's important, because a lot of people find that very interesting. With all my other jobs, nobody ever said "that's so cool" (unless it was "oh thats cool, because my computer just broke...can you fix it"). But now, even though I'm not even a full time developer, when I just mention that I make video games on the side, people get all excited and interested. If they play games they start telling me about their favorite games. Often, all you have to do is casually mention it and they'll be more than happy to talk about it. Then it feels more like they are asking you, rather than you telling them.

I haven't actively pitched my games in person, but sometimes I pitch them without direct intent. Being a game developer intrigues people and if you have a game with a large target audience you might sometimes have a match with someone who is interested in your game. I think your heart matters in this, you find yourself marketing without actually doing it consciously. You are just yourself and tell people about the things you do. I am never pushy, or try to steer the conversation, but many times things just slip into talking about games.

If someone is genuinely interested in your game you have just made them a service, even if they just download the demo and play it for a while you have still made their life a bit happier. That is all it takes for me.

Originally posted by APE
The other day we had some guys come by to cut down and remove a dead tree from our yard. They were self-employed and I thought for a second that they might be more likely to appreciate an entrepreneurial spirit and I might mention my game to them.. ..I might get a new customer!


You don't have to be pushy about it or even bring up the subject...this is what I do:

I have lots of T-Shirts with my company URL and product name on them. I wear the shirts all the time, especially when I'm out. People will sometimes ask me about it, after seeing it on my shirt. This is basically permission marketing...instead of bringing up the topic with people you meet, you wait for them to notice it on your T-Shirt, then you've got permission to talk about it.

Yes, it's very small scale, but it works. And if you think of all the impressions I've gotten of people looking at the T-Shirt, it has more than paid the cost of the shirts.