i'm thinking about making a solitaire shareware game, but the two leading programs each have over 400 games. it'd take me years to fully implement all 400+ games! do you think a version of solitaire with 50 or so games would sell?

I believe Thomas Warfield (goodsol), developer of Pretty Good Solitaire and one of this forum's regulars, has discussed this point on this forum in the past. You can probably search the forums to see what he has to say about it, but I'd say your chances of success are pretty slim. In addition to PGS and the other big solitaire titles, there are many more lesser-known solitaire titles out there. You would have to make a solitaire game that really stood out from the pack and you'd have to really push it to get it noticed.

thank you for replying. i will do a search for that thread as you suggested.

i don't know about it being a slim chance though. i think the biggest competitive difference btween solsuite/prettygoodsol and anything i'd make is the sheer number of games they offer as opposed to about 50 to 60 I'd offer initially. the key thing is, what is the critical # that would cause a potential consumer to look past just the quantity of games offered and instead look at the overall quality of the games. i even wonder (cynically) how many games of solitaire does a customer/player really need? i doubt they play every single game more than a couple of times except the major ones. i have trouble managing my meagre collection of ps2 games. 500 would be just too much. dontcha think?!??

my strategy is to make about 50-60 of the best solitaire games, and make them exceedingly professional and dazzling. instead of just offering sheer quantity of games, i will focus on quality that will make this game stand out.

i've been wracking my brains out the last 2 months trying to come up with a decent game idea, and you know what folks, i think i'm a better game programmer than a game designer. big difference between those two jobs.

560 different solitaire card games on pretty good solitaire.
I don't think it'll take years to make that, it's a deck and the author probably has a "rule editor" with patterns that he can set.

it's probably more research about the rules than programming the software... A possible trick would be that you provide the rule editor to the customer so they can add their own game :) then the program self updates, you'll probably get the 561 games in no time...

pat.

There've been some discussions of stray ideas floating around here before. If you need suggestions, I'm sure we can come up with some likelier bets than solitaire. :)

something that's helpful both with game-naming and with ideas is to think about the search engine... What is a user going to search for that will lead him/her to your game? Can't be 'solitaire' - there'll be a bunch of games in the way before they find yours.

If your game was based around some sort of strange 3d "house of cards" scenario mixing solitaire and jenga (can only take cards that won't make the structure collapse) and just had a set of regular solitaire games as a bonus, maybe that would be different enough to get attention... So far, all the "3d solitaire" games that I can find aren't really very 3d, they just have rendered card graphics lying on a flat surface. House of Cards... hrm, and you could also have a little game about building a house of cards... Dunno, just rambling some ideas. Dime a dozen, you know. :)

Originally posted by jih
my strategy is to make about 50-60 of the best solitaire games, and make them exceedingly professional and dazzling. instead of just offering sheer quantity of games, i will focus on quality that will make this game stand out.


I think one of the things about PGS and SolSuite is that they have both quantity and quality. I'm not trying to discourage you--if you believe you can do better, you should go for it--but I think you've got your work cut out for you. And, regardless of whether or not your solitaire game makes it to the top, you'll learn a lot along the way. From that standpoint, it's worth doing. Good luck! :)

Here's a thread from these forums about making solitaire games: Why are there so many card game developers out there? (http://www.dexterity.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=404).

Also, here's a recent interview with goodsol (aka Thomas Warfield) from SGM: A Pretty Good Interview (http://www.sharewaregaming.com/features/apr/goodsol.htm).

yeah i know. 560 versions of solitaire in one game. makes the 24.99 or whatever pricetag cheap doesn't it?

yeah they both are quality solitaire games, but *smile* i KNOW i can do better. kakaka. I just can't make 560 games tho. 50 yes. 560? no.

I suck at designing games. However even I came up with a few Game Ideas that INITIALLY sound fantastic until you get down to the nitty gritty details. that's where things get confusing to me, and things rapidly go downhill. the idea that sounded FANTASTIC is now lame and stupid.

that's why I'm sticking with the basics. poker. solitaire. blackjack. chess. mahjong. i'll put all of these games together in one great big package...

sleep deprived.

Be sure to check out Silver Creek's Hardwood Solitaire 1, 2, & 3:
http://www.silvercrk.com

They've already got the dazzle covered as far as I can tell.

Originally posted by jih
i'm thinking about making a solitaire shareware game, but the two leading programs each have over 400 games. it'd take me years to fully implement all 400+ games! do you think a version of solitaire with 50 or so games would sell?

Every month or so, someone else comes up with this same idea. They always make the same calculation - surely solitaire is so easy that I can do better. Every one of them thinks they've got the greatest version of solitaire ever (at least they say so on their web sites). Every one of them falls into oblivion. There was a guy on this forum a few months ago with the same idea. Where is his game now? Don't know, apparently oblivion.

First, it isn't that easy. Even limiting the number of games doesn't make it easy. Most people don't know what the features are that people like, and most people that try get the games wrong (not to mention just blantantly copy). There are many games with details in the rules you might not find out about by just reading some other game's help file. This is one of my favorite things to do first when looking at a new solitaire game competitor - check to see if they've implemented certain games properly. It's very common that they are not, and you can tell immediately those people who have just copying the games from another program (usually PGS) rather than used the books from which the games came. To get a large number of games, you also will either have to copy original games from other games (which will get you into trouble, particularly if you pick PGS), or invent your own (which at least takes time, and isn't as easy as it might look).

Second, even if you do get a good version of a small number of games, then you have to market it. Since there are so many games just like that on the market, it's brutal. You've got to have something in the game that different from everybody else to make it stand out.

One reasonable way to do that mentioned previously in the thread is to make a really beautiful, big on graphics type of game. A great idea, except it was done years ago, by several people, the most popular of which is Hardwood Solitaire http://www.silvercrk.com. Second place in this market (and it's been around for at least 5 years) is Solitaire City http://www.solitairecity.com. Check out Solitaire City's Alexa ranking and see what being around 5 years, and even getting a ZDNet award, and being second has gotten him in terms of web traffic.

There are other possible ideas for making your game different, but again you have the problem that others have thought of it first and are established.

I faced much the same problem when I started looking at going in to the MahJongg game market last year. It's nearly as flooded with competitors as the solitaire card game market is. And Kyodai is number one for a reason. So when we made Pretty Good MahJongg we set it up to go in a different direction than just straight competition with everybody else. We get a lot of people who have bought both Pretty Good MahJongg and some other MahJongg game (usually Kyodai). By being different it has been an excellent seller, and it even got a very nice retail deal that would not have been possible had it been just another regular MahJongg game.

I'm doing exactly the same thing with a new game that we are developing. Again, by being different it avoids going directly up against established competition. There are lots of good opportunities left (I've got a whole list of them), but you have to stop copying others and start coming up with new ideas.

anyone who does their research through a help file deserves to fail and end up in oblivion in my opinion. i've researched solitaire by purchasing several books that give a good history, and explanation to these games. in other words, i've done my homework. despite that, I'm 100% sure my game will initially fail, in terms of sales. the market is too entrenched, and there are too many established products. but every product no matter how popular has weaknesses, and that is the approach one has to take to break in. As Steve pointed out, the professional shareware programmer sticks with it, and improves his product rather than giving up. It may literally take years before I can make a decent living off shareware but you know what? that's something I'm willing to do.

I'm certainly not going to say there isn't some creative angle you could take with Solitaire, but it's isn't the easiest of markets to break into.

You could however, just carve out your own niche and be the leader in that subsection. Say, Solitaire for the Disabled or Solitaire for the Troops, or maybe Solitaire for Seniors.

The point is that just about everyone has played solitaire, so just about any group you can attach to Solitaire could have SOME market that you might beable to own. Who knows, maybe being "the" solitaire game that the Military boys play would be good stuff and put some green stuff in your pockets.

Think of it like Harley bikes, they really aren't as good as the Japanese bikes, but thats not the point, the point it that it's COOL to have a Harley. Maybe the Number of solitaire games it's that important if you can make something thats Cool for some section of the population.

If you have your heart set on doing a solitaire game, thats one approach.

The idea being that its better to be number one in something.

Just keep in mind as and hopefully long before you build you game " how the hell am I gonna sell this lump o bits"

Going in half cocked in this day an age, it a good way to waste a lot of effort.

Think "why would someone buy this game over the others?" perhaps because it's the Harley of Solitaire, or This is the only Solitaire game geared toward the hearing impaired.

Then think " How are they gonna find my game in a the sea of games that exist? " How will they be looking for the game? How can I stick out of the crowd.


I have no doubt that anyone the puts their mind two it could build a better game that the crop that is out there, but getting anyone to care is where it gets tricky.

I'd like you to check out this book:
Purple Cow: Transform Your Business by Being Remarkable
by Seth Godin

It's a quick read, and has some great points, especially if you want to tackle making a Solitaire game.

Originally posted by jih
anyone who does their research through a help file deserves to fail and end up in oblivion in my opinion. i've researched solitaire by purchasing several books that give a good history, and explanation to these games. in other words, i've done my homework. despite that, I'm 100% sure my game will initially fail, in terms of sales. the market is too entrenched, and there are too many established products. but every product no matter how popular has weaknesses, and that is the approach one has to take to break in. As Steve pointed out, the professional shareware programmer sticks with it, and improves his product rather than giving up. It may literally take years before I can make a decent living off shareware but you know what? that's something I'm willing to do.

Just a suggestion...maybe make a small set of solitare games like 20 or so as freeware just to get some traffic and notice...then again I am a bit more of a freeware programmer than shareware...

For what its worth..

I've spent a fair amount of time playing solitaire games in the past (especially at my old engineering job! tut tut. And having played various flavours of the game when I used to run linux as my main desktop). Whilst I had access to hundreds of different variants of solitaire, I found that I would only ever play two or three variants. I liked the idea of playing the same game over and over, especially if your 'score' (money, whatever) rolled over into the next game. I liked to think I could become an 'expert' at one or two particular game types and forget the other x-hundred.

Would it be worth writing solitaire and a different game? This way someone who's looked for your non-solitaire might see the solitaire and think "I'll have that as well".

Would it be worth writing solitaire and a different game? This way someone who's looked for your non-solitaire might see the solitaire and think "I'll have that as well".

Originally posted by jih
I suck at designing games.

Then don't do it. Among other things, Mr. Thomas Warfield worked his way up by implementing useful features that no one else had done.

Originally posted by jih
I'm 100% sure my game will initially fail, in terms of sales. the market is too entrenched, and there are too many established products.

Then don't do it.

Originally posted by jih
i've done my homework.

You haven't done enough. You have to do marketing and advertising research too. If you really want to compete with the Coke and Pepsi of solitaire, then you're going to have to spend a great deal of time learning about marketing, advertising and running a business with little error. Once you've done some research in that area you'll realize that it's much too late to go after that market anyway. Try reading "The 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing" to find out why you shouldn't spend another ounce of energy on making an inferior solitaire game. Take the blinders off before you read it too. Telling yourself that you can simply do it "better" is naive and a little arrogant. Convincing yourself that people don't really want 500 card games is not thinking clearly either. Even if people don't play every variation, they "think" that they might and they like the incredible value they're getting. If you were given the choice between $1,000,000 and $5,000,000, which would you take?

>>>You haven't done enough. You have to do marketing and advertising research too. If you really want to compete with the Coke and Pepsi of solitaire, then you're going to have to spend a great deal of time learning about marketing, advertising and running a business with little error. Once you've done some research in that area you'll realize that it's much too late to go after that market anyway. Try reading "The 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing" to find out why you shouldn't spend another ounce of energy on making an inferior solitaire game. Take the blinders off before you read it too. Telling yourself that you can simply do it "better" is naive and a little arrogant. Convincing yourself that people don't really want 500 card games is not thinking clearly either. Even if people don't play every variation, they "think" that they might and they like the incredible value they're getting. If you were given the choice between $1,000,000 and $5,000,000, which would you take?


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You're probably right that the # of games is a major factor in their success. All things being equal, if game A had 50 games, and game B had 500, of course the consumer would choose game B. That's not the issue. The question I had was, what if someone improved the graphics, user interface, or added better features that enhanced the solitaire playing enjoyment over and beyond game B's but still had only 50 games. Would that help negate game B's numerical advantage in the mind of the consumer?

Well the real question is, why do you want to try and get blood from a stone? The solitaire market is pretty much tapped out... As goodsol said, it took him since 1994 to perfect his game to where it is today. While I agree that there may be room for small 'theme' solitaires or another niche of some sort, why not just come up with an original idea of your own? Coming up with a vision and bringing it to fruition is the whole fun of being an indie game developer. If you are just trying to make money, then there are better avenues than putting a new solitaire game on the already crowded shelves of that market.

just my $0.02

The main thing you should do (especially for a first game) is follow your passion. You shouldn't be making your choice of what game to do based on what you think will make the most money. You should make what you are interested in. If you become successful with it, you are going to be working with it for a long time, so you had better like it. You are far more likely to succeed if you choose something you like and enjoy rather than choosing something that you think will make money.

I didn't do solitaire games because I thought they would make money. I did a solitaire game first because that's the kind of game that I play and enjoy. That it turned out to make money was a happy accident. You are just so much more likely to produce a great game if you actually like the game and want to play it all the time.

So my advice is to forget about what you think might make you money and make the kind of game you like the play. If you like solitaire games and that is the kind of game you play all the time, then go for it. If not, then make the kind of game that you do like. Then if its good you can figure out how to make money from it.

Originally posted by goodsol
The main thing you should do (especially for a first game) is follow your passion. You shouldn't be making your choice of what game to do based on what you think will make the most money. You should make what you are interested in. If you become successful with it, you are going to be working with it for a long time, so you had better like it. You are far more likely to succeed if you choose something you like and enjoy rather than choosing something that you think will make money.

I didn't do solitaire games because I thought they would make money. I did a solitaire game first because that's the kind of game that I play and enjoy. That it turned out to make money was a happy accident. You are just so much more likely to produce a great game if you actually like the game and want to play it all the time.

So my advice is to forget about what you think might make you money and make the kind of game you like the play. If you like solitaire games and that is the kind of game you play all the time, then go for it. If not, then make the kind of game that you do like. Then if its good you can figure out how to make money from it.


I appreciate your advice. But I doubt that it can be used for most "today" games like First Person Shootings like Quake, Third Person Shootings like Tomb Raider, Beating up like Mortal Kombat, Platform like Rayman, Adventures like Indiana Jones, Car games like Midtown Madness, even Pinball games like Empires Pinball Pro. It's too much expensive to develop.

Are you trying to say you think it's impossible for an indie to make a good game in any of those categories? That's awfully defeatist...

Mortal Kombat's not even *recent*. What difficulty is there in programming a game like that?

Now, trying to compete with the retail names in *purely bleeding-edge tech terms* is a bit silly because they have more money than you. Doesn't mean you can't make a perfectly good game that will be appreciated by fans of the genre by scaling back your desire to have the greatest polygon count of any game ever made.

If you think you can't possibly make a good game, then you've shot yourself in the foot before you've begun.

Originally posted by papillon
Are you trying to say you think it's impossible for an indie to make a good game in any of those categories? That's awfully defeatist...

Mortal Kombat's not even *recent*. What difficulty is there in programming a game like that?

Now, trying to compete with the retail names in *purely bleeding-edge tech terms* is a bit silly because they have more money than you. Doesn't mean you can't make a perfectly good game that will be appreciated by fans of the genre by scaling back your desire to have the greatest polygon count of any game ever made.

If you think you can't possibly make a good game, then you've shot yourself in the foot before you've begun.

Can you give some good examples. Thanks in advance.

My approach was to consider the set of all games I enjoyed as well as the set of all games I believed had a market demand. Then I found a spot where they overlapped. This was fairly easy for me because I enjoy many different types of games. But I also wanted something that would challenge me as a designer. Dweep wasn't a serious programming challenge for me, but it was a major design challenge. I spent more than twice as much time on design as I did programming. I think that's what helped give it longevity -- many people can program a similar game, but designing a similar game is much harder.

It's probably the same for a solitaire game. I doubt the coding would be a serious challenge to an accomplished programmer, but to design a compelling game is likely much more difficult.

I think design is where indies have the potential to massively outdo retail. You're not likely to achieve feats of technology that rival retail games, but you can come up with a clever design that's difficult to clone.

One other idea to consider is making a "solitaire-ish" card game. We released a game called "Five Card Frenzy" earlier this year and although it's not a true solitaire game, it did turn out to be a fun little card game that has done pretty well with some of our distribution partners (got to #5 on RealArcade). You can check it out at: http://www.hipsoft.com/fcf.html

So, you can always try to put a major new twist on a solitaire style card game instead of trying to make a new set of rules for existing solitaire.

Just something else to consider...good luck with your project,
-Scorpio

Originally posted by jih
You're probably right that the # of games is a major factor in their success. All things being equal, if game A had 50 games, and game B had 500, of course the consumer would choose game B. That's not the issue. The question I had was, what if someone improved the graphics, user interface, or added better features that enhanced the solitaire playing enjoyment over and beyond game B's but still had only 50 games. Would that help negate game B's numerical advantage in the mind of the consumer?

That would have you competing with Silver Creek and Solitaire City like someone already mentioned, so great graphics have already been done. They also have more card games than you have planned.

Steve makes a great point. Independents can only compete by offering a compelling design/gameplay experience.

This is why games like solitaire seem to be an ideal choice for independents. The games are classic, and fun for all ages. They are relatively easy to program, and don't require much art/sound assets.

One of the biggest hurdles I've faced in "following my passions" is that I eventually run into the "art" wall. It's not a wall that I can overcome just by trying harder either. If it's a programming issue, or design issue, that can eventually be solved through hard work. However..if you can't draw a straight line...

For those negativists who state that it'd be futile to attempt another solitaire game just because the market is flooded with them, what is the #1 downloaded game on download.com?
It's not doomIII, or lara croft 5. It's solitaire, by an independent developer!! So obviously there is a market for these types of games. I still believe that if I can offer at great version of solitaire with some unique twists, it may succeed.

Anywhoo..I'm going to develop solitaire, card/chess/checkers type games because I enjoy those games, and believe there's a market. For me, those reasons are good enough.

I'd just like to bring something else to the table that hasn't been mentioned yet: How (financially) successful do you want to be?

The general concensus seems to be "don't make a solitaire game because you'll never be number one in the market". Well what if you don't mind not being number one. What if that's not even your goal.

Go down to your local supermarket and take a look at the products on the shelf. You've got coca-cola, the number one selling coke product. And you've also got pepsi, the number two but trying damn hard to be number one. But then you've also got "Uncle Bob's Family Cola Type Drink!!!". Now, uncle bob is under no illusion. He knows he'll never be able to beat the major players in the cola wars. But he doesn't care! He may only be the 100th highest selling cola producer, but as long as that puts food on the table he's happy.

That's just one example but it's the same in every industry. You don't neccessarily have to be in the top 10 in your market to be a success. Particularly if you are a one person company with very low overheads as most indi developers tend to be.

Now I'm not saying you shouldn't aim high, I'm just looking at things from another perspective. Do you think popcap thought their solitaire game would be number one? I doubt it, but it didn't stop them from releasing a quality game that I'm sure gets it's fair share of sales. :)

Originally posted by jih

So obviously there is a market for these types of games. I still believe that if I can offer at great version of solitaire with some unique twists, it may succeed.



Ok, well now you are stating that the game will have some 'unique twists'... this alone could make your game successful. Before it sounded like you just wanted to make a lesser version of a game already out there. Well, enough discouragement i guess... good luck with whatever you decide

Originally posted by BrewKnowC
Ok, well now you are stating that the game will have some 'unique twists'... this alone could make your game successful. Before it sounded like you just wanted to make a lesser version of a game already out there. Well, enough discouragement i guess... good luck with whatever you decide

Thank you. I never took any negative comments as an attempt to purposely discourage me. If anything, I saw those comments as attempts to be helpful and give me solid advice which I appreciate. Many posters here have actual shareware products and experience and it would be wise to hear all and any comments.

As a result, I "have seen the light" and have altered my plan accordingly.

Good luck to your projects as well.

I think it was Peter Drucker (or maybe Tom Peters) who said if you aren't committed to making your product or service the absolute best in your market, you shouldn't even begin it, at least in the sense of creating a business.

Originally posted by Dexterity
I think it was Peter Drucker (or maybe Tom Peters) who said if you aren't committed to making your product or service the absolute best in your market, you shouldn't even begin it, at least in the sense of creating a business.

I have a feeling that's aimed at my post, and if so I don't think I was being clear enough.

Going back to the cola example, a small time cola producer is going to know they have no chance of becoming the number 1 selling product in that market, so that's not what they aim for. Instead they might try to be the number 1 "value" brand cola. Same basic product, but aimed at a slightly different market. And although it won't sell as much as coca-cola, it could still be very successful.

So with the solitaire genre, rather than release a new collection of 500 solitaire games, call it "pretty decent solitaire" and go head to head with the number 1 selling solitaire products, a more sensible option would be specialise slightly. For example, solitaire for kids, solitaire for the elderly, solitaire for women, whatever. And although the product will probably never sell as many copies as the likes of PGS, "The #1 Solitaire Game For <niche>!" could still be a success even though it's not the biggest selling solitaire game overall. In fact reading Jih's post, looks like that might be what he's going to do.


(if the reply wasn't aimed at my post, never mind. I just re-read it and while it was meant to be about product specialising, I think I made it sound like aiming to be an also-ran was a good business goal :D)

I don't think the Coke Vs Pepsi analogy applies here.

Just a few years ago, Sony and Microsoft were newcomers in the games industry. Sega, nintendo were the top two dominant game console companies. Today, Sony and Microsoft are #1 and #2 respectively, and Nintendo is a distant third.

What is the lesson here?

The lesson is in business, just because a product is #1 doesn't mean it will always be #1.

I don't know if my solitaire games can be #1 since that depends on a lot of factors, but I do know it's possible.

What is the lesson here?
That if you're a big illegal monopoly sitting in a $40 billion pile of cash, you can enter a saturated market and dominate it?

Unfortunately, I don't have $40 billion in cash :( (nor an illegal monopoly)

Slightly off-topic, and aimed at Thomas and Jonas, but how well have both of your Google ads worked out for your Pretty Good Solitaire and Hardwood Solitaire games (respectively)?

Would you rate this as one of the better forms of marketting/advertising?

-Z-

Originally posted by jih
The lesson is in business, just because a product is #1 doesn't mean it will always be #1.

Yeah, and for all you know, Tom might have a religious experience, decide he has enough money, and pull out of the market :)

Zoggles, it's debatable how effective it is. It's a bit hard to track all the way to a sale definitively and it's something that as time permits we'd like to tighten down more. It's not a windfall, and if I didn't do the google ads tomorrow, it wouldn't make much difference on the bottom line it appears. However it doesn't hurt either.

Unfortunately, we need to work on improving our free listings, and for now to be more visible on some sites it's a quick fix which over the long haul helps since we have multiple products to sell.

So the answer is it can be effective but it just depends how it's applied and what you are intending to gain which ultimately is salesin one form or another.

It isn't a cheap game to play, I would have hated to do it on a the budget I had back in 1994, when Ramen noodles was main main food source. ;)