Well, how successful are you guys at developing indie games? As for me, I can do everything but artwork and creating music, otherwise I would go indie.

Do some forum searches and you'll find quite a few threads on this subject, but in a nutshell here's what I've garnered:

1. There are a few successful indies who make enough money to support themselves (and their families). Fewer still probably make REALLY good money. I'm talking about 3 or 4 guys.

2. Most shareware developers do NOT make enough money to support themselves; even the ones who are pretty serious about it. I'm guessing that a decent shareware game makes less than $5000.00 in its liftetime. Many titles will make less than $100.00. (Depends on the quality of the game and how well you promote/sell it.)

3. The successful authors usually spend YEARS building their businesses.

4. You do NOT have to come up with art and music on your own. I licensed a fantastic song for my puzzle game for $40.00, and I made my own graphics using clipart and the built-in features of PaintShop Pro. (It looks very professional.)

Good luck!

>I'm guessing that a decent shareware game makes less than >$5000.00 in its liftetime.

I can say with some certainty that many decent shareware games make this much or more in a single month. And the lifecycle of a typical shareware title is many years (5-8) I think a better figure would be anywhere from 25k-150K for a decent title with certain exceptional titles bringing in much more than that.

Originally posted by John Cutter
There are a few successful indies who make enough money to support themselves (and their families). Fewer still probably make REALLY good money. I'm talking about 3 or 4 guys. This comes up pretty frequently. I think it's safe to say that Steve's articles (http://www.dexterity.com/articles/) on Going Full-time (http://www.dexterity.com/articles/going-full-time.htm) and Shareware Amateurs vs. Shareware Professionals (http://www.dexterity.com/articles/shareware-amateurs-vs-shareware-professionals.htm) are the two most relevant pieces of local information you can explore.

I think that there is something everyone should pay attention to that is more important than the number of "successful" indie developers on this forum. That tidbit of information is what those developers have to say. Fundamentally, I think we've (those who've been part of these forums for a while) seen a common thread among all of them... Going "indie" means becoming a small business owner
Being successful does not always mean making piles of money
A well-thought-out, well-documented cradle-to-grave plan is as important as a good game concept.
Success depends more on marketing than on gameplay (A great game does no good if nobody knows it exists).
The 80/20 cliche can be applied to pretty much every aspect of being an indie, but especially to actually producing a game.

One of the guys who hasn't been around so much lately posted a particularly poiniant comment (http://www.dexterity.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=4896#post4896) way back in March:Originally posted by Alchemist An idea is not a design.
A design is not a demo.
A demo is not a program.
A program is not a product.
A product is not a business.
A business is not profits.
And profits are not happiness.
Each of these things has to happen (frequently, in order) to sustain success. If you want to be an independent anything you are probably going to have to be an entrepreneur. You are probably not going to be able to just write some software and strike it rich. Have a plan. Establish some goals. Work toward those goals.

@DK: Just because you cannot create artwork and music does not mean you cannot be successful. There are myriad resources out there for such assets. Work on what you are good at -- use "filler art" and misc cd tracks for your tech demos (make sure everybody knows that the art and music is unlicensed and must be replaced). With proper planning and a burning desire (http://www.dexterity.com/articles/cultivating-burning-desire.htm), you can succeed.

-daniel

P.S. Please note that in this post I have referred to several of Steve's articles. I have done this because they're the closest resources at hand, and everybody here should be familiar with them. It's imperative to understand what those articles are saying, not just simply read them. Otherwise, the consequences could be disastrous. (In other words, if you plan on burning the ships, you better be prepared to swim if you come upon water).

nono, I said how successful are YOU as an indie, I don't need any help to on starting my own indie business or any of that.

Originally posted by DCoder
@DK: Just because you cannot create artwork and music does not mean you cannot be successful.

I never said I wouldn't be, I just don't think anybody would like to play a game that has ripped graphics and music because I seriously can't do either of them. I'd be willing to learn how to draw is someone would point me to a good book or something to learn off of, all of the articles and books I found sucked.

Originally posted by John Cutter
4. You do NOT have to come up with art and music on your own. I licensed a fantastic song for my puzzle game for $40.00, and I made my own graphics using clipart and the built-in features of PaintShop Pro. (It looks very professional.)

thanks but I'd rather do it myself, I don't like to copy off of others or anything like that

I'd be willing to learn how to draw is someone would point me to a good book or something to learn off of, all of the articles and books I found sucked.

I think that you can learn to program, but learn to draw or be an artist, that is much more complex.
I have a female friend who is really good at painting and drawing with her graphic tablet on pc, and I couldn't ever be so good even if I spent 5 year drawing... :)

Just hire someone to do your graphics, or, alternatively, go for 3D: it is much more easy to learn a 3D program and look on the web for 3d models to use/modify to implement in your game.
Using a 3d program don't require any "artistic inclination"... (sorry but I couldn't think of a better term!) is more a question of patience...!!!

Originally posted by Dragon Keeper
I never said I wouldn't be, I just don't think anybody would like to play a game that has ripped graphics and music because I seriously can't do either of them. I'd be willing to learn how to draw is someone would point me to a good book or something to learn off of, all of the articles and books I found sucked.

I basically learned to model and texture for Space Station Manager from scratch. I think the essential thing is to embrace the fact that creating graphics is not just about painting. It is more like opening your eyes to visual interaction more generally. Getting an "art" eye helps you in all quests visual, including user interface design and interaction design. If you are a real beginner (like I was) I recomend taking some traditional nude figure drawing classes, there is nothing that sharpens the eye more than trying to capture the human figure on paper. Especially croquis excercises where you only have 1-2 minutes drawing the full figure are really revarding, progress being hard in the beginning. In general I think classic painting and drawing helps you progress much faster in the beginning and more easily grasp digital techniques later on.

Here are a few good books that helped me on the way:
- Owen Demers, [digital] Texturing & Painting
- Jeremy Birn, [digital] Lightning & Rendering
- Jim Lammers (with Lee Gooding), Maya 4 Fundamentals
- books by Tufte are the best I have read on displaying information graphically, they might help you with interface design (Envisioning Information, Visual Explanations, The Visual Display of Quantitative Information)
- Alan Cooper has written some good books about user interfaces

You can also find good art technique books in your local library, or pick something up from the bookstore. If you attend a course you might ask your teacher, most of them are happy to help out.

Good luck with learning a new skill! I have the highest respect for people that are willing to accomodate change. :)

Originally posted by Jack_Norton
Using a 3d program don't require any "artistic inclination"... (sorry but I couldn't think of a better term!) is more a question of patience...!!! Using a pencil requires even less. Pick it up, and draw. No buttons, no nothing. Creating something worthwhile with the tool is always harder than simply "using" it. Having used both techniques for most of my life, I'll have to take exception to what's implied in your thought and mention that it takes the same amount of talent to recognize something worthwhile in any illustrative medium. There are about 100,000,000 bad pieces of digital "art" out there on the web that I'm sure will more than prove that point. :)

Jak

Using a 3d program badly is probably easy, but it irks people. :) (like ME. I hate bad 3d art.)

Pushing pixels is not that hard depending on the game - if your needs are small and your animation is limited to nonexistent, you can probably manage to do your own pixel art through sheer grit, practice, and being willing to listen to suggestions, even if you lack 'talent'. (Big animated sprites, however, are hard.)

Hiring someone to do your art cheaply is not that hard, either, provided you have a very clear understanding of what you want and what you want isn't unreasonable.

Me, I did most of my art myself, but I did splash out and pay someone for something... which I will show off in a little while. Not ready for launching yet. :)

Having someone else do your art is probably the best choice, unless you can make it quick enough.
If you have to program AND do art, the development time increase consistently, and may result in bad art or bad programming just because you hadn't the time to do both well :(

For my game I am doing programming and art, but I am quick enough doing both (maybe more doing art than programming!), so that was a good choice for me.
If my 1st game is successful, for sure I'll hire an artist to help me in subsequent games.

My original motivation for learning to do art myself was that without knowing the ropes it is difficult to look for talent in others. If you ever need to get an artist on your project it is good if you have some basic skills in recognizing good and bad pieces of game art. Especially if you have to hire someone for it.

Learning at least the basic of a good 3D tool is useful in many situation. For example, if you ask a professional 3D artist to make a 3D model for you (complete with bones, IK, textures, etc), they'll ask you something around 500$.

BUT - if you know a bit a 3D program - you can just buy one of those CD full of royalty-free 3D models, pick the one you want and do some little modifications.

Sure the model won't be as good as a professional-made one, but it may work for your game :)

Drawing is a skill. Like learning to ride a bicycle. Most people never had good teachers and hence suck. I thought I could never draw until I stumbled upon this book:

"Drawing on the right side of the brain" by Betty Edwards. Published in 1979, its a classic used by all sorts of people (Disney animators to prisoners, mentally challenged etc). If possible, get the old version (sort of pinkish cover) not the new version (white cover). The old version was succint, the new version is "updated" and IMHO misses the point a bit.

Silvanus Thompson (Calculus made easy) said, "What one fool can, another can too". One has to understand that even Picasso (or whoever you admire) was once a beginner. This is not to say you will be the next Picasso if you do what he did but you wont totally suck either :)

Actually, I hired a graphic artist and i'm very pleased with the
results. I paid a considerable amount of money, but it was
worth every dollar. you get what you pay for.

Actually, I hired a graphic artist and i'm very pleased with the...

Cool, interesting. Can you show some stuff? or maybe his/her website?