Working under the assumption that the people posting here are interested in indie development as a viable source of income, not just as a hobby, I was wondering how many developers actually like the games they make? At first, it may seem like a ridiculous question - isn't the whole point of being indie to work on projects you like? But looking at all the "line up 3 colors" clones out there, there really can't be that many developers that enjoy that kind of game and are utterly inspired to make their own variation out of passion for the genre. I'm in a rapid prototyping phase now where I have my list of game ideas, and I'm working to create a playable concept as quickly as possible for each idea. As I move through the list, I realize I am not very passionate about the ideas, that they are compromises between stuff that's somewhat interesting to me, and stuff that (i think) is marketable. Is this normal? Most stuff I get fired up and excited about is stuff that I can't imagine would have any kind of market, or has bizarre requirements (in terms of hardware, or the amount of content I would have to put into it, etc). When I try to come up with game ideas that fit into what makes "good business sense," they are inevitably game ideas that I have lukewarm interest in. Enough interest that I could force myself to finish the game, but not anything that I could "fall in love with." Do I need new ideas, or do I need to just accept this compromise?

Sorry to post off topic, but your name really is a tad too long, as it skews the entire forum wider.

Just an annoying observation.

As to answer your question, I do like the games I make, but of course the more you develop and play, the less you enjoy them.

Alex

Not right now.

As a newcomer to the indie business, Mr.io has just released its first game. It's not exactly one of those connect-3 clones you talk about, but it's similar in scope.

I don't love it. It's an excuse to test how things work. I consider myself pretty solid in the technical side, but I'm a complete newbie to marketing, hosting a website, doing press releases, getting the game listed and reviewed, processing payments, and so on. It was also an excuse to build a game framework to be used in much more complex products.

I had never completed a game before, so I decided to complete one - the simplest game I could think of. It turned out to take more than 3 months (including the framework) and I'm still tweaking it - as a learning experience, it was excellent. I think this explains why I made such a simple puzzle game while not teaching 3D computer graphics at the university (well, that, and the fact that Introduction to Computer Graphics is taught on the second semester ;) )

Games I like? I like simple games. I also like RPG/Shooters like Deus Ex. I totally loved Twinsen's Oddysey. I really enjoyed Dark Sun and Dark Sun II. I hope to make comparable games some day, but I just don't feel ready (and the team, especially the artists, is definitely not ready) to jump on a project of that scope right now. We still have 3 or 4 more games of increasing complexity to do before that.

To say it in a simple way : it's much better to complete a simple game than not completing complex games. More complex games will be eventually made, but you have to start somewhere.

Just my thoughts on the matter...

The first game I made that I really liked (Dweep) was the first one that sold really well. I wouldn't release a game today that I didn't like. If I felt it wasn't quite right, I'd keep working on it.

I really like Alien Flux. In fact I still play it for no reason at all! Which isn't bad.

It's a total flop as far as sales are concerned though, so let that be a lesson to me ;)

Cas :)

I think it would be sad to put a lot of work into a game you didn't like. On the other hand, if you feel lukewarm about something but think you can get it finished without spending months bogged down in it and it might sell a few copies, why not?

... of course, I make all of my income at the moment out of things that are 'fun' and therefore can't see myself working terribly hard on something 'not fun'. This opinion may change when I get deported. :) (Don't ask. My life is a bureaucratic NIGHTMARE. Have to keep the spirits up.)

Somewhat related to this thread, you might want to look at the "eat your own dogfood" thread:
http://www.dexterity.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=698

As for making games I like to play, I wouldn't do otherwise. I originally flip-flopped back and forth between making a FPS and a RTS game, since I liked playing those types of games. When I got more realistic and decided I needed to start on a reasonable size project, I started going over ideas I liked. Eventually I stumbled on a memory of playing Sokoban 5 years back on my friends TI-85 calculator to pass the time in a CIS class that neither of us really needed to take. I remembered beiing hooked on trying to solve all the "push around the crates" puzzles. So that's what I based Miko & Molly off of.

The next game I have lined up (after I finish my current todo list) is another game that I played and really got hooked on. It was a very simple game, so I'm going to take it and expand on it quite a bit.

I hear a lot of talk about shareware RPG's and how people think that there could now be a market for more of them. It would be tempting to jump into that market, but I wouldn't even think about it because I really haven't enjoyed playing RPGs in over 10 years, so I'm positive that I wouldn't be able to make a good one.

Originally posted by SPACENEEDLEEXCHANGE
Most stuff I get fired up and excited about is stuff that I can't imagine would have any kind of market, or has bizarre requirements (in terms of hardware, or the amount of content I would have to put into it, etc). When I try to come up with game ideas that fit into what makes "good business sense," they are inevitably game ideas that I have lukewarm interest in. Enough interest that I could force myself to finish the game, but not anything that I could "fall in love with." Do I need new ideas, or do I need to just accept this compromise?

Then don't do it. If you can't think of a good idea that you really want to do then game design is not for you.

Originally posted by princec
I really like Alien Flux. In fact I still play it for no reason at all! Which isn't bad.

It's a total flop as far as sales are concerned though, so let that be a lesson to me ;)

Cas :)

This is really surprising to me, and kind of tells me that I still don't really understand the market that well. I completely expected Alien Flux to sell very well. It's very good looking, very professional and fun to play.

Of course you may have a different definition of a flop than I do. My game has been out for 3 months and has sold one copy. And it's had about 6000+ downloads. That's my idea of a flop. I'm going to be releasing a new version of it soon and I'm hoping the improvements will help me get some more sales.

I guess that's the real trick to all this: knowing what will actually sell. And yes, I have been doing LOTS of market research. I THINK my next game will sell better since I have done market research this time(I had actually done no market research at all before starting my first game) but it's hard to be sure.


____________
Damon Du Bois
www.wizardslab.com

I generally like the games I make although they're rarely if ever completely satisfactory. For me it's a balance. I make something that I'm interested in, but that I also think would sell. Sometimes the thing I'm most interested in is something that I don't think would sell at all. But on the other hand I wouldn't make a game purely because I thought there was a market for it.

There's too much work and effort that has to go into finishing something for me to be working on a game which I really don't enjoy. Also if I'm not enjoying it I won't work well/hard so the final product won't be as good.

The reason I'm leaving "regular" game development is in part to work on games that *I* think are good to play and have market value (and also arent just licenses or sequels, but thats another story).

Ive got a billion ideas I'd love to work on.

So I sift through all the games I like, and I choose which one is most likely to keep me interested through the whole development cycle. I also choose which one I can put some love into, or a new spin on.

I'm not big into puzzle games, so I dont do those, but that doesnt mean I wouldnt if I came across an idea I felt was actually interesting. (And yeah, those join the colours puzzle games really annoy me).

Most of my early games will probably be quite slow to produce, simply grinding them out. But at least I am happy they will be MINE and will actually bear some resemblance to a game I will be proud to put my name on.

Having said that, I'm not under massive commercial pressure like some people (I can self fund for a reasonably long time etc).

.Z.

Hey Damon, I just tried your game, so here's as good a place to give a bit of feedback on it as any!

Music I hate the music! But I hate nearly all game music! Even so, it's particularly nasty Europop poo. I could turn it down but then there aren't enough sound effects to fill the gap.
Sound Hardly any effects! I think another 15-20 sound effects wouldn't go amiss, and of course, they'd need to be tied to some more interesting stuff.
Professionalism It's slick and smooth as an oiled baby's bum, so no worries on that count. It does an effective job of nagging and so on as far as I can tell - in fact it's identical to Alien Flux in the way it works :) Maybe we're both doing it wrong?
Website Your website looks hideous! It reminds me of buying a Spectrum cassette from a car boot sale with a badly guillotined black and white photocopied inlay. Could do with some serious sprucing up to make punters feel more comfortable that there's a pro behind it all.
Gameplay Fundamentally you've got a great game concept here - we know it's great because it's Missile Command. I actually rather enjoyed your game but found that the incentive to carry on after I'd finished the demo lacking - I wasn't on an adrenaline buzz when the demo finished so I wasn't feeling particularly hooked or impulsive - hence no sale. Something's missing from the game that was in the "original". If I may be so bold as to make some suggestions and then I'd think about buying it:
[list]
Make those powerups float around the grid everywhere, not just along the top
Change the graphics of the hack attacks. Different attacks need different graphics.
Improve the graphics of the servers to make them a bit more exciting. Maybe make them all different to each other.
More different types of hack attack. The three in the demo differ only by how fast they move. Where are the splitters? Where are the pausers? Where are the ones that take 2 hits to kill? etc
There is a delay between you clicking and anything interesting happening at all (ICE goes bang). This means that 90% of the game is waiting for feedback. We need instant gratification. So send a little electric spark up the line to the ICE and make it go ZAP when it reaches the box. The further away it is the longer it takes to go off (I realise this is a fairly significant design change but it's worth pursuing). Spark should emanate from the nearest server. I'll get an adrenaline rush washing the spark whizzing off - will it make it in time? - which will be far more interesting than watching a boring countdown
It's not frantic enough. Missile Command rapidly got much more frantic. With the animated zaps and new hackers you might increase the frantic level a bit. Maybe they need speeding up sooner. Defeating the demo levels should feel like an achievement.



Any help?

Cas :)

Hideous? I *like* his website. It's soft and pretty.

No idea on whether it sells well or not, but other than the broken graphic for the site tracker (service down?) it's very smooth and relaxing... it looks a lot more professional than many websites I've seen here. Where do you get 'hideous' from?

(I'm asking because I'm honestly curious - are my taste and yours THAT different? Is a compatibility error causing the website to look completely different on your browser than mine? Is there some cardinal rule of advertising that his site's design has broken and I just don't know about it? If so, I could use the information. :) )

I think your question is profound. I would say work on the idea that you feel passionate about. How do you spot such an idea? All ideas come from your interactions with the world. Look out for ideas that put a spring in your step, makes you feels very good - maybe you would want to run across the street, catch the first person you meet and say "dont you think that will be great?". OTOH, some ideas feel great at the moment of conception but when dwelt upon dont seem that exciting. That is the nature of ideas. Dont feel bad. Dont feel you are no good. Move on. You are not just one idea however good or bad it might be.

The best place to test out the ideas is your own mind. Imagine what would be like if the idea were a finished game. Play it in your mind. What will the controls be? How will the objects/characters/whatever in the game react to them. How will the game look like? What effects can you bring in? What sort of AI? What sort of physics? If there is a collision in your game, visualise the collision. Can you hear the sound of the objects colliding? Dont be judgemental at this stage. The questions you want to avoid are: can i implement this game?, will it sell? etc. By now, you will figure out if your idea is good enough to work on further. If it is you are lucky! If not, repeat the process. There are no shortcuts. It is frustrating sifting thru the maze of unworkable ideas. You get totally pissed with yourself, with the world, with everything. That is the nature of creativity. Move on. Keep trying. You might get lucky. What if you never get lucky? Well, what else can you do? Nothing else? Then you better keep trying some more. :)

Game development is an ardous process irrespective of whether the idea is one you like or dont like. Working on something you like makes it a labor of love else its a labor of slavery (to the market etc).

When you finish creating something, you will like it for a while and then you start spotting the faults and even grow to dislike your work. Familiarity breeds contempt. Get away from your work for a while. Start generating new ideas. I have found that when you come back to your work after a while, it brings back pleasant memories when you were creating it and you enjoy it again with fresh eyes. But only for a while :) Then your judgemental side kicks in. Time to get away again.

And finally there is no compromise. If you keep trying, you will find the idea you want to work on. And if you want to work on it so bad, you can make everybody around you help you work on it.

As children, who were loved and respected by their parents do better in a real life, games which were done with love and respect do better in virtual life :) Think it this way, if you love the game you make, it is a chance, that people who are simular to you will love it too. If you make game which even YOU do not like, it is a chance, that it will be no one who will love it :)

This reply is so far down, I doubt you'll even see it. On the whole I pick ideas I like... then i start on them, and then interest goes way down as I progress through making it. By the time I'm almost done, I practically hate it. So the answer to your question for me is "yes and no".

Game development, (if you're not doing it as a hobby) is a business, so you really just have to ask yourself one question...

Do I want to make some money, or do I want to just be free to work on games that I like to play?

Now before anyone jumps on me, i'd like to say, just because your making a game to make money, doesn't mean you won't like it, you may like it alot as you go through the process. Likewise working on a game you like to play may make alot of money because alot of other people like it too. But you need to decide what you're going to focus on.

Working it like a business you do what Steve said in one of his artlcles, do some basic market research, find a gap, or at least a place you think you could do better, and work for that. If you just want to make games you like to play (may you just like the freedom of being your own boss but don't care to make that much money), you have to decide that and focus on it. Games you like to play, and games you like to make, easy, or hard it doesn't matter.

While what everyone says is true, if you make one you like, then chances are you'll turn out a better product. However, there are lots of "better products" as well as worse ones. So while you may make something really good, if you neglect the business side you may be making something that there's a thousand really good clones of.

My suggestion : Try making money first (ie a game idea you don't like as much, i wouldn't suggest doing it if you totally hate the genre...) You want to make the money now so later you can make the games you want to make... By that time you may have a clearer idea of what sells and what doesn't, and apply it to the game you want to make. Not only that but then you can also hire a team to make the kinds of games that cost money... IE any major fps, or adventure game which requires alot of content.

Keith

Originally posted by princec
Hey Damon, I just tried your game, so here's as good a place to give a bit of feedback on it as any!
[list]
Music I hate the music! But I hate nearly all game music! Even so, it's particularly nasty Europop poo. I could turn it down but then there aren't enough sound effects to fill the gap.
Sound Hardly any effects! I think another 15-20 sound effects wouldn't go amiss, and of course, they'd need to be tied to some more interesting stuff.
Professionalism It's slick and smooth as an oiled baby's bum, so no worries on that count. It does an effective job of nagging and so on as far as I can tell - in fact it's identical to Alien Flux in the way it works :) Maybe we're both doing it wrong?
Website Your website looks hideous! It reminds me of buying a Spectrum cassette from a car boot sale with a badly guillotined black and white photocopied inlay. Could do with some serious sprucing up to make punters feel more comfortable that there's a pro behind it all.
Gameplay Fundamentally you've got a great game concept here - we know it's great because it's Missile Command. I actually rather enjoyed your game but found that the incentive to carry on after I'd finished the demo lacking - I wasn't on an adrenaline buzz when the demo finished so I wasn't feeling particularly hooked or impulsive - hence no sale. Something's missing from the game that was in the "original". If I may be so bold as to make some suggestions and then I'd think about buying it:

Make those powerups float around the grid everywhere, not just along the top
Change the graphics of the hack attacks. Different attacks need different graphics.
Improve the graphics of the servers to make them a bit more exciting. Maybe make them all different to each other.
More different types of hack attack. The three in the demo differ only by how fast they move. Where are the splitters? Where are the pausers? Where are the ones that take 2 hits to kill? etc
There is a delay between you clicking and anything interesting happening at all (ICE goes bang). This means that 90% of the game is waiting for feedback. We need instant gratification. So send a little electric spark up the line to the ICE and make it go ZAP when it reaches the box. The further away it is the longer it takes to go off (I realise this is a fairly significant design change but it's worth pursuing). Spark should emanate from the nearest server. I'll get an adrenaline rush washing the spark whizzing off - will it make it in time? - which will be far more interesting than watching a boring countdown
It's not frantic enough. Missile Command rapidly got much more frantic. With the animated zaps and new hackers you might increase the frantic level a bit. Maybe they need speeding up sooner. Defeating the demo levels should feel like an achievement.



Any help?

Cas :)


Yes! Lots of help! Feedback like this is hard to get!

>>Music

Well, I'm really not much of a musician. Maybe I should license some music...

>>Sound

I wanted to add more sound effects but didn't want my download size to go over 5 megs. Maybe I should anyway.

>>Professionalism

Thanks!

>>Website

I thought it was good at the time that I made it, but I have gotten kind of tired of it. I'm probably going to change it--add more color, make it more cheerful. I did think it looked professional though.

>>Gameplay

All great comments, I agree with most of what you've said, and it's alot of good food for though as I work on the new version.


Thank you very much for the feedback, I really appreciate it!


Damon Du Bois
www.wizardslab.com

No probs. If you use OGG format music you can probably squeeze all your new sound effects into 100k. OGG compresses digital sound effects incredibly well.

Cas :)

www.wizardslab.com looks nice and professionnal to me (I'm not a marketing expert though). No annoying blinking GIFs, no amateur-looking black background (I hate white backgrounds though), good gfx, clear. It's even displayed fine by my browser :-D

Yes, I really love Space Station Manager. When choosing what to do as the first project I collected a list of games that I would like to do and selected the one with most comercial potential. And I think this has also helped the game achieve all the targets I set for it.

Not to go too off topic, but princec I just wanted to let you know, when I played Alien Flux, I almost threw up! I get pretty bad motion sickness from some action games, usually FPS's. I can typically play for about 20 minutes before having to stop playing. In fact to this day I've still never got past the first level of Doom because of this.

Alien Flux however is a whole other ballgame. Within just 2 minutes of starting the game I had to switch off the monitor, go splash cold water on my face, and lie down for 10 minutes to make the nausea go away. I've never played a game that hit me so fast, and in fact I also think this is the first 2D game to ever cause it! That's quite an achievement, well done! :D

just to stray slightly topic-wards, I must say I don't think I could have finished AF it it made me sick while I was coding it :P

Cas :)