I need some advise. I am a very unhappy man.

I am a software engineer for a few months. I maintain existing
database apps and the pay isn't that much due to me not being
a university graduate. I live in South East Asia, Malaysia that is.

I was doing indie development then somehow I took up a day
job but this job has basically killed most of my time for my
projects. I work 8:30 to 6 pm but i have to get up as early
as 7 am in the morning.

I get home earliest at 7 pm, shower/eat and dead tired at
8 pm, I haven't got much time to do much things else or
I would be tired the next day. I am so sick of my life.

I refuse to believe this is what I have to go through for the
rest of my life, hacking off mediocre code for someone else
for the rest of my life, enriching others while I am paid peanuts
(rm 1,800) USD 450 a month. Add that to the fact my colleagues
belittle my responsibilities as if every stuff I did isn't worth the
effort I put in.

I am not going to even mention women, they're a pain to deal
with so I am so sick of life where you have to go through to
dating, marriage, kids, house loans, car loans... These are
freaking expensive (car especially) in this country. Asian
women are basically gold diggers.

Life has got to be more than that. Indie is what I want to be,
but the pressure and the fact I have to answer to my family
is something that's making me feeling suicidal at times.

I want to quit my job, work part-time or something, flip burgers
at worst part-time, then spend more time on my indie projects
and I only need to be able to bring in usd 300-400 a month to
be able to be an indie full time. ( I can flip burgers or work 7-11
to make up for extra-income part-time)

I don't want to have to go through life with a job I am not happy
with but forced to do out of family pressure/obligation and
live to regret what I could've done/been.

I despise asian life... I want to control my own destiny, not
let others decide mine.... There is no future in IT as an employee
anymore.

I am going to quit my job, and be a full-time indie, I hope my
family will forgive me.

A lot of my friends and colleagues are going to laugh and
look at me with contempt, I don't ****ing care anymore...

Well $450 is not a lot compared to american standards, you will make that easily if your first game is decent.

pat.

Originally posted by jcvw75
Asian women are basically gold diggers.

women everywhere are gold diggers... ;) (j/k)

don't think that going indie will suddenly turn your whole
life around. Though its quite obvious you do need a change,
finding a new job is only one of them.

change your perspective, think about what you can do to
improve your situation. if i were you, i would of go for the 7/11
option rather than spending my life in sorrow.

reminds me something that my mom told me today.
She told me of a bitter woman who works with her,
get paid 2500$ per month but suffers and agonizing
and she told me to look at my friend who work at
burger king, which we all know how much it pays.

my friend is one of the several persons i know who are
actually happy. sure, she makes a lusy paycheck, but
she loves almost every aspect of her life and accept it.

OTOH, you have that bitter old annoyed woman, who get
2500$ but her job makes her misrable enough to stain
and misrable her whole life.

think about it.

Sometimes when life throws us so much pain, it's trying to tell us to change course. But often we don't listen, so we stick with our current situation out of fear, and this only causes the pain to intensify. But eventually the pain becomes so great that finally we decide to surrender and do that which our heart yearns for. And somehow, almost magically, everything works out. Why? Because happiness comes from letting our inner being express itself, not from going through the motions of what others expect. And when we're happy, everything in life is so much easier.

If your family members love you, then they should want you to be happy. Another person's need is not a good reason for you to remain in a painful situation. And you can only end up in such a situation by giving your consent -- if you want out, just stop giving your consent when others ask things of you that would reduce your happiness.

At one time many years ago I pursued wealth at the expense of my happiness, and I ended up with neither. Finally I surrendered completely, and I began pursuing happiness as a primary goal, trusting that all the money I needed would come to me. And then I gained both money and happiness. Whenever I lose sight of that realization and pursue money in ways that don't make me happy, it achieve neither money nor happiness. But when I simply pursue happiness, an abundance of money somehow flows to me with effortless ease.

If you've reached such a massive point of pain that you harbored thoughts of suicide, even while working very hard each day, it's because you've been putting other goals ahead of your own happiness. We're conditioned to believe that pursuing happiness for ourselves is too selfish, and that we must sacrifice for the good of others. Once we've spent the bulk of our days satisfying everyone else's needs (our boss, our family, our community)... only then we can do a little for ourselves. But there is no limit to what others will demand of us if we put their happiness above our own, so our own happiness starves. With such beliefs, long-term depression is the most likely outcome.

Happiness for ourselves seems like a selfish goal, but it isn't. Because once we achieve happiness for ourselves, we spread it to others almost effortlessly. I don't know of any relationships that fell apart because of excessive happiness. When I sacrificed what I wanted for what I thought other people needed, I achieved very little. By trying to make everyone else happy, I made no one happy. But when I surrendered to doing what made me happy first and foremost, I was able to help increase the happiness of others, such as by writing articles, speaking, volunteering, creating these forums, etc. Even though I do these things just because I enjoy them and not for profit, new opportunities keep coming up that make them financially rewarding in ways I never could have anticipated. It's actually quite wonderful to realize that the best way to serve others is to simply do what makes you most happy, with nary a worry about how others will react. Contrary to popular belief, this mindset won't turn you into a self-centered, dishonest person. For in order to be truly happy, one must also pursue qualities such as integrity, courage, honesty, etc. Perhaps Socrates said it best: "I say that the admirable and good person, man or woman, is happy, but that the one who's unjust and wicked is miserable."

Lastly, please watch the remarks that many would consider to be sexist. Those don't belong on this board at all, even if intended in jest.

women are as much gold diggers as men, and anything really. Any mentality you find in a sex it also exists in the other.

With that out of the way, do what you want no matter what.If you stick with something you are unhappy about, maybe its not because you dont have the guts to do something else, is maybe because you dont know what makes you happy.

Look at me, every 1-2 years i end up changing carrers :) student -> writer -> games programmer -> (next year) army -> who knows. But in all this, I'm searching for something. I don't care about the implications of this, I just do it because I think I will have better luck next time, and when I get to a point where I'm happy doing that 24/7 for the rest of my life, I'll srop, until then, I'll keep changing, no matter what my friends or family say. I'm pretty sure noone wanted me to come to Scotland (from Portugal) but heck, I did it anyway, and now I have their support. It may be hard in the beggining, but things change and people accept those changes. It is your life, not theirs.


Change, don't wait for others to tell you to change or someone hand you over what you want. Look for what you want and do it. Not hard actually.


Good luck!

Thanks guys, especially to Steve. I know what I want in life now.
My dad has given me his moral support and he's glad that
I know what I want out of life. I will tender my resignation
this week. Mom is still not too happy about it but she understands.

I will get a part-time job if needed, but preferably not
coding related. I want to reserve that energy for my indie
projects. :-)

I believe there's a light at the end of the tunnel, one of the
reasons I took up the job was because of the need to feel
'secure' but the longer I was doing the job, the more insecure
I felt. I asked myself, where do I see myself years from now
if I continue this job, and since I don't feel job security because
I have to meet everyone's expectations but none of my own,
it actually made things worst. I feel that the need to
have a 'secure' job will trade off the opportunities I could have
in life when I was able to do my indie projects and others.
Even if i didn't make it, there will be NO REGRETS compared to
giving up now and working a dayjob that I am not happy with.

As a software engineer in R&D, I meet no one, I meet no customers, I am basically like buried into a silent room, coding away and thinking, what the hell am I doing here?! If i needed
more cash I could just work part-time or flip burgers, but with
this job I killed every opportunity I have just like that! The
need to polish up the resume with more 'work experience'
basically just killed and traded off my other opportunities.
My colleagues are another negative influence, they basically
trivialized my task and didn't think selling software online can
be made into a livelyhood. They are so sure it will be a failure
but none of them has even tried it before, this is the problem
when you have too much education and don't dare to take risks.

Anyway, I hope everyone keeps a positive and optimistic
attitude and try their best to achieve the goals they want in
life and try your best to meet your own expectations.

Change, don't wait for others to tell you to change or someone hand you over what you want. Look for what you want and do it. Not hard actually.

I agree completely.

I am (was) in your same situation. Wanted to do something different (indie dev) but had to work as webdesigner.
I was about to get a sort of promotion by making ASP and in general more complex websites because my boss considered me a worth member of its company.

Then I expressed my desire to change.

In less than one week, I changed from full-time to part-time (working for the same company).
Not only, but my workmates expressed admiration for my decision, and I think they also were a bit jealous for what I am going to do.
Surely I earn less. But WHO cares?
I have a girlfriend: she never waste any money for stupid thing. So, maybe not every woman is a gold digger :p
Surely a lot are, but as Akura said, I know also a lot of men who are wasting a large amount of money for stupid things.

So do it. If your goal is to reach 450$ per month, you can easily reach it, if you write one good game or 2-3 decent ones.

Why you're still unhappy? you have everything you need now!

So move your a... and start developing!! ;) I want to see your work out soon! :)

I can perfectly understand what you are talking about. I am from Asia too, India actually and my salary is less than yours. I almost work the same time you do. But i am happy with my day job and so i do not mind working and developing games at the same time.
Have a steady plan what you want to do. If you are sure about quitting your job, then go ahead. If i were in your situation this is what i would do. I would have a steady plan when to quit my job, which would ideally be when i start earning something from my game. Then i would switch to a part time job and after my next release, i would make it full time. But thats just me. It depends on circumstances too. Currently i work from 9 am to 8 pm. I start working on my game from 9 pm to 12 am. I get up by around 6:30. I do not find it difficult because i got used to it. If i can do it, you can too. Just my thoughts.
Anyway whatever you do, all the best. May you achieve whatever you want in life.
Cheers.

One thing that helped me become pervasively happy was to understand and accept that time is an illusion. Ok, this sounds too metaphysical, but it's actually very practical. Consider that people will often sacrifice their present happiness for some future benefit, such as working at a job they hate, hoping that it will lead to a brighter tomorrow. On the surface this seems like a good idea, but it seldom works. Why?

The reason this approach fails is that there's no such thing as the future. Huh? Think about it. The future is merely a mental construct. You never actually exist in the future. And the same goes for the past. If you visualize time as a straight line (past... present... future), try throwing away that analogy, and view time as a single immovable dot instead. Everything you think of as the past is simply your memories. But all that you experience and all that you are exists only in the present. When you think about the past or the future, you're always doing so in the present. You can never be happy in the future because by definition, the future is not the present, and you only exist in the present. You can only be happy in the present.

Ok, so consider that in this precise present moment, there can't even be any action, since action requires motion (of your body or your thoughts), and motion requires time. So in a single timeless moment, you can't even be doing anything. All that you can accomplish in the present is to simply be.

So if in any given present moment (which is the state in which you perpetually exist), you can only be something, then how on earth does anything actually get done? What do you have to be in order to make things happen? The answer I came up with is that you have to be a cause. In any given moment of time, you are a cause of something. And that's what determines the state of your future present moments more than anything else. All that exists of any relevance in your entire life is the sum of all the causes that you are right now.

So if all you can be in any given moment is a cause, then it's a fallacy to believe that anything will change in your life unless the cause of that change already exists in your present. If you project the cause into the future, then the cause doesn't exist. Thus, people who say they'll quit smoking next week or next month, for instance, are simply deluding themselves unless part of themselves is an active cause of becoing a nonsmoker in the immediate present.

Ok, let's bring this back down to practical reality and relate it to happiness. If happiness isn't part of your present, it's because you've projected your happiness into the future and out of your present. But unhappiness in the present is itself a cause... the inertia of present-moment unhappiness leads to more present-moment unhappiness. And the reverse is also true -- happiness in the present is a cause for a continuation of that happiness.

So the simple truth of all of this is that if you aren't happy right now, in your present, that alone is enough to cause the unhappiness to perpetuate itself, especially if you project all your potential happiness into the future (an illusion). The only way to break the cycle is to create a new cause right now in the present, by doing something immediately to make a difference. And a corrolary of this is to accept that if there is some part of your life that you want to change, but there is no part of your present reality that's actively causing the change, then for all practical purposes, the change will never... can never... occur.

Ok, I know I've gotten a bit philosophical here, but I've found this viewpoint to be immensely practical in doing my day-to-day work. Often if I feel stuck on something, I'll stop and ask myself, "What kind of a cause am I right now?" And this helps me clearly decide what kind of cause I want to be, such as a cause of greater wealth, higher sales, greater contribution, etc.

Also, since causes can only exist in the present, there's really just one fundamental type of cause. And that is the thoughts you hold in your head. Every thought is a cause, whether you want it to be or not. If it's part of your present consciousness, it's causing your future present moments as well.

When I grasped that the present moment is all there is, and that there isn't anything such thing as the future, I stopped delaying happiness and I committed to making it a part of my present reality... immediately. And this is the difference between working to be happy (an illusion) and happily working.

As always, Steve, your words are an inspiration and your insights are illuminating.

Now to jcvw75:

I'm glad to hear you're taking action to better your life. If you want my own take on things (and I don't know why you would :-)), here's something I've found that works for me:

- Do something now, and do something simple. You can do something more complex as your next project. But I'd advise taking things one step at a time. Start out with something simple, yet functional, that you KNOW you can do. It helps greatly just having completed your own independent project. For me, this was a screensaver. Just having this done helped me immensely to realize that I CAN finish something and that I CAN make money from it.

- Plan ahead and then follow that plan. My current plan involves projects that escallate in difficulty/complexity one step at a time. So each project I do will be slightly more complex than the one before it. This way I don't try to swallow something so big at once that I never finish it. This is a chronic problem with programmers and game programmers in particular. :) And if you're going to depend on your own success to make it, it's best to start small so that you lay a solid foundation, and then build slowly upon that.

Basically most of this is just to say, don't try to write something too ambitious as your first project -- it will take you too long since it's your first, and that's if you ever finnish it at all. If you take too big a step at first, you will discourage yourself and you will begin to think you cannot do it. But you CAN do it. It just takes patience, time, and experience. And the best way to get that is to start with something you KNOW you can finish in a reasonable amount of time.

Hope that helps in some way. :)

To Steve P.

If you don't write the book about indie dev, you can always write one about phylosophy! :D
Jokes apart, I agree with you: the MOST common error people do is think what they're doing as "a necessary sacrifice to achieve that something". I know few who are NOW happy, after spending a lot of time doing sacrifices.
Of course you must act carefully, and unluckily not everyone CAN really do what they want. I could change to part time because I am still living with my parents, so my expenses aren't so high.
If I was alone, I would have thought twice before making that decision :)

To Punchey:
you are right :) The best thing for newbies is to start with a small project. To be honest, I couldn't imagine making money from screensavers! but I'm glad you did :)

I started with a relatively big project, a soccer management game, but because that's what I really wanted to do since a long long time!
And I already had done some budget games, so this isn't really my first game.

Anyone see the movie "Office Space"? I think a lot of us can relate to that movie's theme, which is, work sucks!

You have to have something more in your life than a job, a woman, or thoughts for a better future. None of those things can make you happy. I'll paraphrase Curly (from city slickers)..

If you want to be happy, all you really need is one thing. What's that? Only you can know what that is.

Ok..it's corny but it's true! Know what makes you happy in this life, and go for it! Its as simple as that.

My advice to you is, to follow your heart. No job is worth your happiness. I bet you were happy before you took that job. Find another job that won't be at the expense of your happiness.

Good luck and don't get too depressed.


Can I comment on Steve's post?

I follow something similiar or at least try to follow the guidline. It's simple to understand but very hard to follow.

basically, it goes like this: You (and your life experiences) are dictated by your thoughts. Most people aren't aware of this, and react to life in a negative or positive way. If something bad happens, they get depressed. If something good happens, they are immediately happy. But there is neither happiness or sadness. Those feelings are only reactions.

If I find myself getting down for some reason, I've learned to catch myself and immediately think of something else. Then I begin to feel better, and a little while later, I think how stupid I was to feel down because it's nothing. Think happy thoughts and you'll be happy. Think negative thoughts, and you'll be miserable.

...and if you're depressed, go for pet therapy :)
get a little cat, dog or small rabbit (common here in europe)
I have all those pets (2 rabbits) and when I am depressed, simply play with them and suddenly feel better!

...ok we're going really off-topic now...!! :D

Ive been through this a few times in my life.

Having a job i was really hating, or starting to hate. Usually to the point where my mind rebelled and I simply lost it and went off somewhere.

Ive got a much better handle on life now, so I'll try and pass that along.

Basically, NEVER think that there's no other way of getting through life. If somethings completely and utterly crap, change it.

Opportunities seem to come along when you least expect.

From almost all of my major disasters at life and work, Ive pretty much landed into something different every time. So stop sweating about whats happening and change, chances are something new and exciting will happen.

My only other peice of life advice. NEVER be unemployed if you can possibly help it. Its simply wasted/dead time. Even if you cant get a job, try and do some development work. If youre unemployed for a good while, write a bigger program!

Opportunity is a very fluid thing it seems, much like fate, it and twist and turn and wriggle, so youve got to be willing to go with it.. like trying to land a big fish, sometimes you have to play out the line a little so it doesnt break, but eventually you'll start reeling it in!

I started off wanting to be an architect, Ive been a professional game programmer for around 10 years now, and in between those, Ive run my own building company AND a game retail store :) dont ever expect life to be simple! :)

.Z.

Originally posted by jih

You have to have something more in your life than a job, a woman, or thoughts for a better future. None of those things can make you happy.


I don't think this is entirely true... If you have your dream job, and fall in love with the girl of your dreams, I think you'll find that you can be truly happy with little else (especially the latter).

My gf is my motivation for everything now, even if she doens't know it. (including being a better game devver)

I had a revealing moment the other day, a large local game development company was hiring a bunch of devs for their upcomming project and someone I know there asked me to submit my resume, thinking id be well qualified for a game development position. To my suprise the offer didn't excite me at all, a few years ago I would have worked for minium wage as long as I was "in the industry". I've now realized that i'm far happier working on my own games at my own pace, working the hours I want to work. It's really hard to beat indie game development :)

Originally posted by BrewKnowC
I don't think this is entirely true... If you have your dream job, and fall in love with the girl of your dreams, I think you'll find that you can be truly happy with little else (especially the latter).

My gf is my motivation for everything now, even if she doens't know it. (including being a better game devver)


You're right. A good woman can make one happy of course. There's nothing like being in love. I think what I meant was you have to seek something beyond just happiness, something deeper if you want to have permanent peace and contentedness? (is that a word?). I've sort of arrived at this conclusion after many failures in my life that to desire anything including happiness is to be miserable. You just sort of have to make the best of everything, and try to be happy. It's like having an invisible shield around you and when bad things happen in life, you're not devastated because you have the right attitude.

haha..sorry i'm confusing everyone including myself. well..I understand what I'm trying to get at here, but it's not something I can explain in words. YOu just have to figure it out yourself I suppose. sorry!

Since we're on this topic I figured I'd contribute something that seems to fit pretty well. Just some more food for thought.

"There is neither happiness nor unhappiness in this world; there is only the comparison of one state with another. Only a man who has felt ultimate despair is capable of feeling ultimate bliss."

-Alexandre Dumas, "The Count of Monte Cristo"

So lets see (sipping on the morning cup of water) what have my friends at the indie forums been up to? Hmm..

jcvw75 seems to be unhappy with his present situation, that isn't very good is it. What have the fellows answered? Excellent, a long row of encouragement, that is the spirit. Never give up, you are a child of the universe just like a tree or rock. Aah, good pieces of how to pay attention to the moment, we can never get reminded of that too much. The world is full of happiness and friendly people, good that jcvw75 gets a reminder of it himself. Oh, now he seems much brighter already, with a new spring in his step, good good. What have we here, Steve takes a dash into metaphysics, how nice of him. Well spoken words, we are part of the primary cause after all, good to keep that in mind. Aah, good encouragements to action and Dan sharing his personal power story. How we all have grown over the past months. Every man and woman is a star, wasn't that the saying?

Humm, dumm, another day at the mill. What was I about to do next.. ?

Well, i resigned.

Of course, my colleague chided me and has contempt for me,
but I didn't care, as long as Im outta that place I don't have
to hear anymore pessimistic/negative advises. He didn't have
any good words for me, never mind.

I will resume my project on monday full-time, and hopefully
will have something to show you all.

I'll update my website soon and let you all see my work-in-progress. Meanwhile I'll be on the lookout for consultation
and part-time jobs that won't take up my indie hours.

Even if I don't make it, I won't go after Steve. *LOL*
I was already like this before I discovered dexterity.

Head... is... hurting... make... Steve... stop... :)

jcvw75, nicely done, now just get your a*s to work and make a game you're proud of.

:p

You know, I live in the U.S., but 450 dollars a month is pretty good money for a lowly college student like me.

Is it really possible to earn this with a half decent game?

I was just about ready to throw in the towel and consider ebay business as an alternative to college funding.

Originally posted by Fenix Down
Since we're on this topic I figured I'd contribute something that seems to fit pretty well. Just some more food for thought.

"There is neither happiness nor unhappiness in this world; there is only the comparison of one state with another. Only a man who has felt ultimate despair is capable of feeling ultimate bliss."

-Alexandre Dumas, "The Count of Monte Cristo"

Perhaps the time has come to change my sig...

Originally posted by thisisme
You know, I live in the U.S., but 450 dollars a month is pretty good money for a lowly college student like me.

Is it really possible to earn this with a half decent game?

I was just about ready to throw in the towel and consider ebay business as an alternative to college funding.

No, it's not possible with a half decent game. It's possible with a very very good game. Half decent games make zilch! Decent games make zilch! Good games make zilch! Great games can make money, but even that's not a guarantee.

... Crap games with great marketing can still turn money. Get desperate for quick cash? Sell porn. :)

Think we have to define what's a decent, half-decent, good, and so on... :)
And also saying 450$/months means nothing.

It could make you 4500$ for 10 months, and that is 450$ per month, then stop.
But it could make you 9000$ for 30 months, that's about 300$ per month, but in the end is much more money...!!!

Anyway a bit of luck influences sales, no matter the quality of the games... an example? a war begin just before you start selling your game :rolleyes:

Actually, I'd have to disagree with you there Mike. Honestly I don't think I've played a single independent game that I consider a "very very good game". Some are good, and most are fun. But the only very very good games I've played are generally retail games, and those a very rare.

I think as Steve has illustrated in the past (although I'm not sure if he's said this specifically), the quality of the game is just one element of the equation. There are so many other things that contribute to selling a game. Quality is just one of them. With the proper marketing you can sell terrible games, which the retail industry shows us all the time. If you choose a niche no one else is in you can sell a lot more. Having a very good game helps a lot, but a good game can sell very well to.

Now of course you should always aim for the best game possible. But you don't always get what you set out to create.

I work from 9.00 in the morning until 18.15 in the evening.
I wake up a 7.00 in the morning and at 8.00 in the morning I go to work. And I am at 19.15 in the evening at home.
So count how many total hours I spend on my job. And do I like my IT job, to be honest not much anymore as when I started. I also like to be indie in games, but I doubt that I will make it to live from it. I sold some games online however. I prefer to work as my own boss. I got some other plans of things I also enjoy and I can do as my own boss.

Originally posted by Nexis
Actually, I'd have to disagree with you there Mike. Honestly I don't think I've played a single independent game that I consider a "very very good game". Some are good, and most are fun. But the only very very good games I've played are generally retail games, and those a very rare.

I think as Steve has illustrated in the past (although I'm not sure if he's said this specifically), the quality of the game is just one element of the equation. There are so many other things that contribute to selling a game. Quality is just one of them. With the proper marketing you can sell terrible games, which the retail industry shows us all the time. If you choose a niche no one else is in you can sell a lot more. Having a very good game helps a lot, but a good game can sell very well to.

Now of course you should always aim for the best game possible. But you don't always get what you set out to create.


Defining "great, good, mediocre, bad, etc" is a matter of taste. There are many downloadable games that I think are great (Pocket Tanks, Ricochet, Bookworm), but I can't name a single retail game for the PC that I like. But that's a topic for a different thread :D

Can anybody name a bad downloadable game that sells? This may be true in the retail arena, but in a "try before you buy" atmosphere, it has to be excellent or customers simply won't purchase. A possible exception to this is, of course, a game with a major licensed property like a movie or tv show.

Obviously game quality is only one of the many factors that contribute to sales- but it's *easily* the most important factor. In my opinion, it's more important than every other aspect combined. For example, Pocket Tanks is a downloadable game that is an excellent seller. I have personally known the author for 10 years; and I know for a fact that he has never spent a single second (or penny) marketing the game, except uploading it to a few sites the day after he released it. But Pocket Tanks is a quality game, and that will shine through.

As far as what Steve P. writes, game quality is the very essence of it. If Dweep was a mediocre game, Steve wouldn't succeed no matter what he eats or how many pages affirmations he reads every morning. If he hadn't marketed it at all, it may not have sold great, but it still would have sold.

Originally posted by Mike Boeh

Dweep was a mediocre game, Steve wouldn't succeed no matter what he eats or how many pages affirmations he reads every morning.


Funny, funny guy. :)

Not to de-rail this thread or anything. (ok i will anyway) But I started eathing fresh fruits and veggies in the evenings instead of having a big dinner. (i still eat like crap at lunch) and i lost 7+ lbs in a week and a half.

I wasn't trying to be funny... I just wanted to point out that the biggest factor in the success of dweep was the quality of the game.

The biggest factor for a shareware game’s success is the gameplay addiction factor. Quality graphics, sound, and credibility are all second. Look at Snood (Snood Web Site (http://www.snood.com/)), the only well done aspect of the game is the gameplay!

I can say from personal experience that the right game sells 5 times as much as another game of similar quality, design, and promotion. Even with popular, commonly known games in the same genre.

Michael Sikora
Guardian Light Studios (http://www.guardianlightstudios.com)

PS I should mention that the Snood game and website (currently) look considerably better then they used too. Having mentioned that - the game still sold in excess of $300 000 before the major improvements...

> Can anybody name a bad downloadable game that sells?

Bugatron? ;-) just teasin'!-- but actually how about Atomaders? Not that great by my measure, (nice looking but lacks gameplay for me) but sells tons. Actually a lot of the games that do very well I think are kind of mediocre. I suspect there's 2 factors that are really important. The quality and professsional level of the game itself as well as how well it appeals the audience it's being pitched to. Let's face it. When you put a title up on download.com and various other similar sites you're hitting a particular cross section of the population and those people aren't necessarily the same people who like, say.. compilicated war strategy games. (just as an example) So you could put out a GREAT war strategy game online and do very poorly, whereas a mediocre crossword puzzle or mahjongg game might do quite well.

I guess it also depends on where your bar stands, but I would put all of my games in the "decent" and not the "great" category and they all sell. (not as well as I'd like but they sell)

Originally posted by Guardian_Light
The biggest factor for a shareware game’s success is the gameplay addiction factor. Quality graphics, sound, and credibility are all second. Look at Snood (Snood Web Site (http://www.snood.com/)), the only well done aspect of the game is the gameplay!


Gah! How does that Snood game sell without screenshots?? I will never download a game if I can't see what it looks like first.

Snood is a game that has sold in despite a lack of marketing. But it's fun and addictive... I consider addictiveness to be part of overall quality- sorry for being vague.

I read somewhere that Snood is the 9th most popular computer game on the planet! I think number 1 was Solitaire which comes with Windows. Anyway I must warn people who are just starting out making their own game to be careful about installing Snood. Not because of the addictiveness, but just because it looks and sound so cheesy, you will be tearing your hair out trying to figure out what makes it so popular :) I know I certainly did... I am a hardcore gamer in a lot of ways, but I also am a casual gamer and love indie titles including some of those Tetris knockoffs and I still can't see the appeal in Snood, either as a hardcore gamer or as a casual gamer.

... I developed a massive Snood addiction back when it was *Mac-only*... because I was using the mac labs at school at the time and it was really easy to download and install on every machine. :) I fooled around on a lot of shareware sites looking for games, but mostly could never remember their names after poking at them and therefore couldn't find them after the lab staff wiped the machines clean again. :)

Anyway, I can think of a bad game that *supposedly* sells copies (at least, the developer swears it does) and in a genre in which hundreds of far better games are available free, but it'd be mean to name names. :) He doesn't post here, though, that I know of...

I played Snood often. It's really addictive, however, the graphics, menu's, just about everything about it other than gameplay is BAD. The gameplay is definately not original.

You would think with all the downloads, sales etc. they would improve at least the character graphics.

I think it does well because its so easy to pick up and play. I often played while waiting for something to download or compute. It didnt matter if I finished the level or not, it was just fun.

I love Pontifex II. I don't know how it sells, I'd imagine quite well as it's extremely addictive. At least it is for me. But there is alot about Pontifex that is terribly done like the UI. It's very ugly and feels, uhh, I don't know.... obtuse? It does get the job done, however, and the game is very hard for me to put down. So on the whole, it's a great game, but it certainly has some less-than-great elements to it that I imagine are holding it back.

BridgeIT, however, looks like it's going to be the creme de la creme! They're REALLY getting it together!

Just thought I'd toss in my $0.02. Thanks for your time. :)

jcvw75, i hear what your saying, im going to be indie too soon, and heres how im doing it. You still need to pay the bills so heres how im moving over to indie.

in steves articles he mentions assets, you can start by consulting,

www.rentacoder.com is where i started

from there i moved to ASP.net development on the IBUYSPY framework www.asp.net, where i then began selling small modules on www.snowcovered.com (i can pull a few hundred USD a month)

now im currently working on topcoder modules (http://www.topcoder.com/index?t=development&c=comp_projects) where you can get royalty based income.

from here im setting up a base for me to start my game development. I dont know, i hope this may help you a little. I know what its like to make little money writing code that nobody really cares about..

Good Luck, let us know how it goes!

Umm I just installed Snood and it gave me a link to Bonzai Buddy on my Start Menu (Free Bonzai Buddy, and if you look at shortcut properties it was indeed in Snood folder). I don't want to derail this thread but that is very disappointing that a shareware game would do this, especially when it is so successful.

I agree.
Bonzai Buddy is on top of my HATED list!