Hi,

I'm just wondering if anyone has ever outsourced some of thier development to a place like india or some other cheaper territory?

I guess most indie devs dont have the funds to do it, but Ive considered working with an indian dev company for years (but dont actually know of any).

I'd love to have contacts and relations with developers in other countries (especially guys I can give some work too, that'd save me money AND give them a nicer income).

I'm thinking along the lines of a 3D artist, or a web designer or something along those lines (i.e. non-mission-critical).

.Z.

Z,

Funny, we just had a mail from an Indian company offering exactly that.

http://www.octopluse.com/index.html

They are looking to make some development partners in the west.
Ill attach below what they said in the mail:-

-------------------------------------

Hi

I am writing to you on behalf of Octoplus Entertainment.

Let me introduce Octoplus Entertainment to you: Octoplus is the largest and fastest growing gaming company in India. We are a team of 60 people working on games and game-art for PC and consoles.

Octoplus offers offshore development services to game developers and publishers in US and Europe. As the cost of development is increasing, the concept of offshore development will gain acceptance. We, as a company can bring in following value to the table.
1. Low cost of development: The cost of development is approx 50% of that in US.
2. IT talent: india is known for the educated talent pool it has. Almost all the big IT companies like, Microsoft, Cisco, Intel etc have established their development center in India. Moreover there are many Indian programmers working with them in US and Europe. There is lot of animation that is getting outsourced in India.
3. Professional management: Octoplus brings in professional management to game development business.
4. Project management: This is our strength; with delivering good quality work at the right time.
5. Octoplus, being a VC funded company, is a financially stable company. We have an infrastructure to support approx 100 people. We also have a marketing office in Boston
6. Being an English speaking country, there is better coordination with our clients as compared to any other country
7. Client servicing attitude: We are passionate for client satisfaction. This is our edge over others; we will always put in extra efforts to make our clients happy.

We would be interested to discuss the possibility of association with your company - Octoplus can prove to be a very reliable development partner in the long term. We are looking at providing onsite as well as offshore development services in gaming.

I would be keen to explore the possibility of working with your company. Please let me know how to take this forward

Regards
Pravin Dudhe
Octoplus Entertainment
www.octopluse.com
Tel No +91 22 56945442/3
Fax No. +91 22 2683 8833
M +91 98214 47872

---------------------------------

Hope that helps :)

It seems to me more oriented to commercial games than to shareware ones.
Their website gallery of images didn't impress me too much to be honest...

Anyway if the thing works, let us know ;)

Well, they contacted us, so they must have some interest in low cost downloadable games.

In truth, were not using them....
I just figured it seemed on-topic, so I may as well post it.

In a previous life I looked into using an Indian company call 'Nous Infosystems'.

As it worked out, the cost of hiring their devs was no cheaper than getting the guys upstairs to do it (1st job would have been, due to an introductory rate but after that the price was equivalent - around $50k pa. per coder as i recall).

I suspect they were running their pricing scheme on a negotiable basis, so it may have been possible to talk them down significantly on the costs. I never tried.

They did offer free project management...

If anyone needs someone for contracting, just let me know. I have been building an extensive list of 3d artists, web designers, 2d, etc. who usually contract fairly inexpensively.

:)

Alex

5. Octoplus, being a VC funded company, is a financially stable company.


LOL! That's perhaps the funniest thing I've read all week.

Well true be told, Octoplus ready is a very stable company.

Back when we used to be publishers, we worked with them as agent work on some of the titles. Now they are our main agent competitor as the company Im helping grow is along the same lines (www.pharaegroup.com).

I would recommend working with them though, as they are one of the largest agencies in the gaming industry.

Alex

If anyone needs someone for contracting, just let me know. I have been building an extensive list of 3d artists, web designers, 2d, etc. who usually contract fairly inexpensively.
That would interest me :) can you post the list? (maybe excluding webdesigners, since I am one! hehe)

Ill drop you a line directly Jack.

The list is just my current resources...If you need any kind of contract worker, I will personally find them.

My current list includes director users, flash, 2d drawing, 2d digital, logo design, 3d low poly/high poly, music, sound, etc.

In addition, each one varies by price so I will find you the best price to fit your budget, based on the quality you need.

Anyway, droping you a line now.

Alex

Thanks!

For my first game I won't need help, since I've already done all the graphics myself, and should be finished really soon :)

But for future projects, who knows? :)

Since I am from India, I am aware of a few small game development companies here.

The game development industry is nascent in India, so these companies are small, relatively new, and still learning. Most of them would have finished three or less games, so aren't very experienced. But, I guess one can first try them in a non-critical role, and later trust them with more responsibility if it seems justified.

Here are a few names I know:


1. Dhruva Interactive: http://www.dhruva.com/ - they developed "Mission Impossible PC" for Infogrames (now Atari), and have also done some artwork for them.

2. Indiagames: http://www.indiagames.com - they are more successful in the mobile games space, but have also released some small-budget PC titles. Recently, they have have managed to break into console game development. I don't know how good the programmers are, but the CEO (Vishal Gondal) is passionate about games, and knows how to run a game dev business.

3. Paradox Studios: http://www.paradox-studios.com - not much information on their website. Looks like they have finished only one game, but have won a small award for it.

4. (Unknown): I forgot the name of the company, but you can contact prasoon_dixit@hotmail.com. They are quite a small company but have released a PC FPS. Prasoon (the person with this ^ email address) is the main person in the company, and is considered an experinced hand in the Indian gamedev community.

5. Milestone Interactive: http://www.milestoneinteractive.com - they have mainly been a game distributor, but it seems they have entered the game development and publishing business also, and I have heard they are doing some good work.


Disclaimer: The descriptions given above are only top-o-the-head descriptions from me, not thoroughly researched. I am not affiliated with any of these organizations or persons. I have not worked with them, so I don't know how good they are; and I don't know their rates. :) I know about them only because I lurk in the IGDA India chapter forum. :)

Hope this helps. :)

Rohit

Rohit, I know india is a huge country and that Rohit is probably a fairly common name. That said, did you ever work for Microsoft? in the SMS group?

Originally posted by Dan MacDonald
Rohit, I know india is a huge country and that Rohit is probably a fairly common name. That said, did you ever work for Microsoft? in the SMS group?

No, that's not me. :)

Hey Rohit,

To make it easier, is there a url for the India chapter of the IGDA??

.Z.

"To make it easier, is there a url for the India chapter of the IGDA?? "

http://www.igda.org

Then try the community -> forum and look for india

http://www.igda.org/Forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=17

John

Does no one else worry about all the IT jobs moving to India, China?

Go to your local university and post an add on their CS building, or better yet, go to their graphics professor (always listed on the school web pages for their professors), and offer to start a student chapter of the IGDA.

Students will probably work for free, and you'll be giving them more experience and more likely to find a job here in America.

Originally posted by shaft
Does no one else worry about all the IT jobs moving to India, China?

Not me. After undercutting the US IT workers by so much, now the IT workers in India and China are the one's sweatin' it, since companies are finding that Russia, Romania, etc are even cheaper :

http://slashdot.org/articles/03/06/06/1226232.shtml?tid=98&tid=99

hi,
I am from India. I have been following the discussions in many places regarding the outsourcing. Many are against india for this. I thought i would share my opinion on this. This is the only forum, i think, where there would be no flaming and is full of reasonable people.
I can understand how you feel when you loose the job. It can be a nightmare both financially and emotionally. One of the U.S presidents (i don't exactly remember who said it) gave a quote which is one of my cherished quotes. "If your neighbour looses his job, it is recession and if you loose the job, it is depression."
That is life. I do not argue with it. I can certainly see how it affects everyone. I am with one of the IT companies in India, so are many of my friends. The life is not a cakewalk in the IT industry. We work from 9 a.m to 9:00 p.m nornally. Sometimes we are lucky to get an off on saturdays. Granted, this is not the case with all the projects. But it is still the norm to expect to work anywhere between 12 to 14 hours. Recently one of my friends worked for 26 hours straight as they had to meet a deadline. Then he went home and came back to work after 5 hours and started work again. Their team was doing this in shifts to complete the project. This went on for 5 days.
Now they are back to normal schedule of 12 hours. I was also working in a call center before i came to the programming job. The life is HELL out there. Irregular timings, food and so many things which we can never think of. Sometimes i had worked to such an extent that i cannot remember what i am supposed to do next or what i am talking. That is the kind of life we have here. And yes we do get paid more than the other average people here. We get around $250 to $300 per month.
Now is it worthwhile? Defenitely for many people. Being jobless maybe kinda new to americans, but here in India it is quite common. There are people who are not employed for the past even 8 years. Do we benefit from it ? Yes, in the short run we do. But like someone pointed out in one of the discussions, it is the corporations who benefit, the shareholders actually.
I believe this is short term trend. It is like a catch-22 situation here. In a reccession, people start to loose the buying power, so to reduce the cost, companies outsource to get the cost down which inturn reduces the buying power of the people which further reduces the buying power. But will this cycle be forever ? Not likely, it will end soon. Then all this talk about outsourcing will vanish.
In the end all this happens because of the recession in the economies. When this passes off, we are in for a better times. So its no use blaming indians or chinese or the russians. After all we are also trying to make our living. That is the fact of life. DO i like my job ? Yes i do. Not for the money, but for the passion of coding. I want to become indie as soon as possible and i will do it.
There are many instances where indians have lost their jobs due to foreign companies coming in with their products. Yes, there are people who commit suicide because of it. But in all i think we should have the courage to carry on and make our living in other ways possible. We should move on instead of whining about it. Well you might think i talk this way because i have a job. It is not so. A year back, i had debts and i did not have a job. There were simply no jobs available. Everyone wanted a software job. The demand was more, supply very less. So i moved on to call center jobs. My friend who could not get a call center job, moved on to other fields. Now both of us are in software jobs as we wanted. But i have friends who are still trying to get into sw company.
What i am trying to say is that we can always find other ways to make a living, only if we look for it. That is what i do and that is how i think. I am a firm believer of darwins theroy "Survival of the fittest". I am sure i am a fit person and i will survive.
In reply to other posts, should you outsource to other countries or give the job to your own people. I suggest you think smart from a business perspective instead of an emotional one. Do it where you can get the job done to your satisfaction.
I do not think that i should only give my art contracts to indians. I am ready to outsource it to other people(even though, this means a higher cost to me) in other countries if that is what will satisfy my requirements. Think in terms of business also.

There are very good presuppositions in NLP that states:
1. Every one takes the best decision possible that they can take given the circumstance and the situation they are in.
2. If one person can do it, anyone can.

Another quote i like is "The person who can ride the wave never sinks, as opposed to the person who chooses to oppose it".

Changes happen, we should adapt to the changes or perish.
Many choose to perish though it takes the same effort to accomplish either choice.

Btw as i said i want to be an indie and soon i will be a full time indie. I like it and i choose to do it.
This is a great forum and i like it here and all you people who are always ready to share their experiences. Lets keep it that way.

I am not trying to offend anyone, just thought that i would share my thoughts on this.

Thank you Gana, for making my job not seem so bad. :)

Thanks for your story Gana. I live in The Netherlands (Europe), but my roots are in India :)

I'm not bashing Indian's or the Chinese, or any nationality. In fact I've read there are more CMM (Capability Maturity Model) level 5 software companies in India than there are in the states.

And while in 50 or 100 hundred years, the economies of India and China, and all of the world (Once India, and china become expensive, the jobs will move to russia, etc.) will grow hopefully to a level that America has enjoyed. And all the world will be on equal footing.

And while I hope that would be the future, I now have to struggle to find work in the profession I love. We don't make anything here anymore, and a country cannot survive that way. By not making things anymore, only "middling" stuff, we eliminate the middle class. Coorporations make some men VERY rich, and the rest of the country struggles serving each other hamburgers.

Sorry for the rant, but I just feel like America is failing in someways. We spend more on prisons than we do on education. Which is working out well since the coorporations won't need the educated because they can find educated and cheaper people elsewhere.

Oh and I'm not really ranting about me so much personally, because I work very hard to get what I want. And I think I won't have to much trouble finding a job. But that is only because I consider myself (arrogantly :D) among the best of the best. But I alone do not make an economy. We need many people working in America to have a strong economy.

I can just see myself now as one of those grumpy old men ranting about "back in my day..."

I'm not bashing Indian's or the Chinese, or any nationality. In fact I've read there are more CMM (Capability Maturity Model) level 5 software companies in India than there are in the states.


I know you were not bashing. Only i thought i would share my thoughts on this. BTW CMM Level 5 is not that difficult to attain if you put your mind to it. What we should aim for is the malcom-baldridge model of business. That will improve our bottom lines. I certainly like the american way of living. Infact i wanted to be an american many times. I even dream to live an american life. I really envy you guys :). But I love my country for its rich tradition and culture. I am proud to be an Indian. I know this is how every one feels about their country too. So i can understand how you feel about this.


And while in 50 or 100 hundred years, the economies of India and China, and all of the world (Once India, and china become expensive, the jobs will move to russia, etc.) will grow hopefully to a level that America has enjoyed. And all the world will be on equal footing.


I sure hope so. :)


And while I hope that would be the future, I now have to struggle to find work in the profession I love. We don't make anything here anymore, and a country cannot survive that way. By not making things anymore, only "middling" stuff, we eliminate the middle class. Corporations make some men VERY rich, and the rest of the country struggles serving each other hamburgers.


I agree partially with you on this. It is true that doing only "middling" stuff does not help the majority. But does this mean that there are going to be no more IT jobs in US, by say 2020 ? I do not think so. Even in the project i am working in, we are a team of 10 right now. And i heard the total people in the company is around 2500. Are there zero recruitments in US as of now. I don't think so. Sure, some people loose jobs. It is not in the IT industry alone, it happens in all the industries due to the bad times we all have right now.
so who might be the ones who lost the job ? It would be the people who were non-performers in the eyes of the company. But 'non-performers' in the eyes of the company is entirely different from the real scenario. What i am trying to say is that, if you are NOT a NOTED performer, you are a non-performer in the eyes of the company. What does this mean ? Get noticed for the work you do. It is all about marketing in life. And the thing you should be best in is to market yourself. I have a very close friend(chat friend) in US, who got a promotion when some of his collegues were laid off. According to his own words, of the 6 laid off(including his immediate superior, whose job he got), 4 were way better than him. In fact he said that he would go as far to say that on a scale of 10, he would rate himself 6 while rating 3 to be at 7 and one to be at 9. He was also disturbed that they had to leave. But what exactly happened was that he was promoted when his friends were laid off. Why did this happen ? Because he made sure that his skills are known, he marketed himself unconsciously, while the others chose to work silently. It does not work out that way.
One of my friends in the call center, came to the job, after working in a programming job for 3 years. Why, his company laid him off(Yes, layoffs occur in India too). What did he do ? He immediately joined the call center. He made use of whatever skills he had to get a job. Is he satisfied ? No, he longs to go to a programming job. But he does not have that luxury. He has to work and so he is currently in the same call center. But he too has a passion for coding. So he comes home from work and starts with coding. You can follow your passion whatever job you do, if it truly is your passion.
I love game programming. I work for around 12 hours on average and then come home and start with my game coding. My friends think i am crazy. Well, to me coding games is my passion. So i do not mind it at all. I sleep for 5 to 6 hours a day. I spend maybe 1 or 2 hours for eating. All other time i am infront of the computer coding away. I am quite comfortable doing this. In fact i find it uneasy if i do not code for a day.
What i am trying to stress here is that we should adapt to the changes and change ourselves and our way of thinking according to the changes and move on.


Sorry for the rant, but I just feel like America is failing in someways. We spend more on prisons than we do on education. Which is working out well since the coorporations won't need the educated because they can find educated and cheaper people elsewhere.

Oh and I'm not really ranting about me so much personally, because I work very hard to get what I want. And I think I won't have to much trouble finding a job. But that is only because I consider myself (arrogantly :D) among the best of the best. But I alone do not make an economy. We need many people working in America to have a strong economy.
I can just see myself now as one of those grumpy old men ranting about "back in my day..."



You are a true patriot. It really takes an effort to think about others when we have the things we want. And i would not call that arrogance. It is confidence. If every one who lost their job had the same frame of mind, they would easily move on and find another job. You are one of the rare people who has that frame of mind.

@Ron(LordKronos)
Thanks for the link. I went through the whole discussion in slashdot. Many are vaild points on both sides. I have further resolved to become an Indie after seeing that :). I want to be able to fire my company, not the other way round :). I am sure i will achieve it soon.
Btw thank you very much for the reposts after the site went down. I know it is a bit late. I usually read ALL the posts, but answer only a few. Now that i am answering, i thought i would add a thank you note to you. I suddenly felt a loss when many valuable posts were lost. Thanks to you we got most of them back. I wish to thank you personally for that.
You have taught me many things through your posts. I really appreciate all the people who share their experiences. That is why i love this place. Lets keep it that way.

cheers,
gana.

I will name another option I know well: Argentina. There are a lot of great development teams here (many of whose people I have the pleasure to know personally), and the development costs are very low because of the devaluation of our currency after ten years of 1 to 1 parity with the dollar (now nearlier to the 3 to 1).

For more info about the dev teams there, check the website of the Argentinian Game Developer Association (ADVA), which does also organize the Argentina IGDA Chapter. The URL of the English version of the site follows: http://www.adva.com.ar/adva_eng/index.php.

Best regards,

When I was doing consulting for Worldcom, they had a very large percentage of Indians and Pakistanis that were there on work visas.
One thing that I noticed was the difference in work ethics between the local hires and the foreign ones. The foreigners worked their tails off, they were the first ones in in the morning and the last ones out at night. That's obviously a generalization, I'm sure that there are lazy Indians just as often as there are hard-working Americans, but at Worldcom the difference was striking.

On an unrelated note, I'm an anthropologist at heart, and I spent a fair amount of time talking to these guys about their culture. One of the guys that I worked with had an arranged marriage with a traditional Hindu ceremony. Fascinating stuff, I absolutely loved it.