@BongPig:

I've just noticed recently you guys at PomPom have gotten the green light for the XBOX dev. (since I was looking around at how the incubator program works). Congrats :)

Was it a difficult process to the dev kit? Or did they willingly allow you guys access to the program once they saw your great games and website? Second: how is it working with the dev kit and the SDK? Last, I recall you need to get a official licensed XBOX publisher to publish your game, have you guys found one interested in MS and ST?

Thanks..

You don't need a publisher for the incubator program. They give you enough kit to do a demo which hopefully will get you a publishing deal. With a publisher signed you can get full dev status and buy a dev system.

Ah, I see. Thanks Dan. btw, very informative website you have on the biz for developers.

Exactly right Obscure.

To add, Getting the dev kits wasnt too difficult ... its making good games thats difficult!! .... from then on the dev kits kinda come naturaly.
We simply demo'd the PC version to the people at Microsoft Xbox europe ( london ), and they liked it enough to get us into the incubator and give us a free kit.

However, we only get the kit for a limited time. In that time its still up to us to find an interested publisher.

So all in all, getting the kit is the first step of many to get us onto xbox. Trying to get onto PS2 is also off the ground.
Hopefully ill have more to tell in a couple of months.

The whole "trying to get a publisher" thing is a bit of a waste of time if you ask me.

the Ozo interactive mob chased a publisher for long enough that they ran out of money (and thier game was pretty damn playable too).

Of course you guys know what youre doing, so if thats your bag so be it, but personally I'm doing indie dev precisely because I want to dispense with publisher crap (other than as a means of selling, I just mean I'm not interested in chasing publisher funding).

Xbox,PS2 and GC really arent THAT difficult to get going with. The XBox seems to be about the best supported tools wise (but the PS2 has an excellent profiler).

GC is definitely going the way of the dodo though, so I'd probably look at doing either XBox or PS2 dev myself (and given that, I'd probably knock up a demo on PC for Xbox and on the PS2 linux kit for PS2).

But anyway, its not the bloody platform! its the game! who cares wether its xbox or ps2 or PC or whatever, is the GAME FUN!

Phil.

Phil, if we want to get Mutant Storm onto the Xbox, we have to find a publisher. Microsoft wont take concept submissions unless they are through a licenced Xbox publisher, so without one, its no Xbox for us.
Same with the PS2, but there we already have a publisher. We're waiting for Sony N.America to assess our concept submission.

Either way ... no publisher ... no console version of Mutant Storm.

EDIT : Just for the record, we get NO funding from any publisher. We simply need them for distribution.

Incidentally, what is the process like for getting onto PS2? Are there similar dev. programs for potential developers like for the Xbox?

Console is a great market, and just because you bootstrap yourself from nothing into PC games and then into console, like PomPom and use a Publisher, don't mean you aren't independent.

Well, if you think its your road to fame and fortune, go for it :)

I guess its just not my thing :) at least not until i get desperate.

Phil.

How are you guys going to eat the submission costs for these things, I seem to recall those being bloody expensive.

Phil.

There are no submission costs. The only costs are.....
1. Cost of the dev kit
2. Cost of development (running your team).

As you have to go through a licensed console publisher they handle the manufacturing costs, sales, marketing etc. Often then pay your dev costs and even loan development systems.

So console submissions dont actually cost any money? or do you mean the publisher will pay for it?

What if the submission fails and you have to re-submit etc?

I know the lead times can take a while, but I always thought we had to pay for the submissions (or rather, our publisher did), I guess if theyre eating that cost its ok :)


Phil.

What are the ways to develop for PS2 in terms of making a demo without having a dev kit?

@PomPom - who is your publisher is for the PS2? Is it going to be MS or ST on PS2?

Congrats :cool:

I think the whole thing has been over complicated here.
There have been no costs as yet. The Xbox dev kit is loaned to us. I have no idea if submission costs any money, as we've not been asked to pay anything.
My guess is that submissions dont cost a thing, so long as they go through licenced channels.

XSgames are the PS2 guys we've been talking to. They are the ones submitting MS to Sony US for us. Its suprising how well they are doing selling original but cheap console software.
We dont have a PS2 dev kit, but do have access to one. Its not an issue till Sony get back to us with yes or no.

Looking at the other titles being released under these budget pricepoints, we really fancy our chances of getting accepted ... but then, its a funny old world. ;)

We've not done any work really to get this far. No effort except for a couple of short meetings and some e-mails.
Phil, i dont understand what you mean by 'until I get desperate'
Are you saying you wouldnt even bother trying, even though it costs nothing and take little effort?
You must remember, our proposed games are already done, finished and damn good. We have no pressure on us from any of these publishers at all.

Well, you already got your game finished, so its not too big of a deal to just port it, I guess the budget console market is something new, but its a good thing to have a console release whichever way you look at it.

What i mean "until I get desperate" is that most of the crap Ive had to put up with over the last 7 years has been due to publishers. I..e wanting to add features or change this or that.

I'm just not that interested in doing the whole publisher bunny chase (i.e. theyre the rabbit at the greyhound track, and we're all the hungry little greyhounds).

I'm not saying I'd turn away ANY opportunity, but I'm not going to delude myself that anything I'm doing is ever going to appeal to a publisher until they actually sign some kind of deal (i.e. Ive met loads of small developers that are constantly "almost signed" to the point where they run out of money and quit), my take is that I do what i do under my own steam, with my own funding, and for my own purposes, until such time as its a good match for a publisher (I can see myself working with a smaller publisher someday, especially one that actually cares about quality and not simply about release dates).

I guess I'm kinda the low rent version of 3DRealms, I'm going to release my stuff "when its done" and take care to produce something of quality. Thats part of the reason why my new job is so attractive to me.

Thats not to say I wont do smaller product, but I'm definitely not interested in doing the whole "release 1 puzzle game a month" thing either.

When alls said and done, Ive got reasonable amounts of cash, some great designs, and plenty of knowledge and skillful mates to develop with. Thats pretty much all I ask for.

Oh, for the record, my ultimate goal is to actually find a few development partners and release online games in korea, but thats only because I love multiplayer games and I really dig the whole korean attitude to online games. Personally, I'm happy to work with anyone, I think its important for the games industry in the longer term for developers to learn to work together (I'd love to partner with another larger firm, much like Gearbox did with valve, obviously at a different scale, but you get the picture).

Good luck with the xbox stuff! hope it comes off, will be interesting to see how that pans out for you guys.

Phil.

Yep. I see your point Phil, and I agree completely.
I had my fair share of that type of publisher pressure at Argonaut where i last worked. Team17, Argonaut, whatever .... same evil process!! ;)

So, yes I would agree with you in that I would NEVER suggest to any small scale developers to go for the whole funding, publisher dependence thing. Floating above a barrel of acid 24 hours a day is more fun.

We made our games for PC firstly, and they are done and dusted and selling. Soon to be selling through GarageGames too.
The console thing just kind of evolved naturally due to the reviews we were getting, and the suitability of Mutant Storm for the console budget market.

Mike,

I know you guys know what youre doing :), but a load of newbie developers think theyre going to go out and get a deal of a lifetime and jump into the "we're in talks with a publisher" like it means something.

I like to think of the line from Jerry McGuire "show me the money" because talk is far too cheap from publishers.

I think MS is going to be perfect for a console release, you already have the controls ready for it, the games just primed for that kinda thing.

Hey, does this mean you guys are going to IGC by the way?

Ive been part of the garagegames experience for a couple of years now, and the guys are definitely in the same mindset as the rest of us (screw publishers, we use em when we need to, but we wont be thier bitches anymore).

Theyre all great guys though, and I'm proud to have made such good friends there.

In the terms of last years tee shirt, "world domination through collaboration" is something I believe is the ONLY way to get out of the current industry melaise.

I'm going to try and innovate with my whole approach to development as an indie (doing games I think will fit a niche, that are fun to work on, that have some production value, that fulfill some inner need etc).

I'm glad that there are quality indie developers like you guys Mike, because youre a great measuring stick for me and my buds!, I'm happy to see quality competition because it raises the profile of development to have GOOD products out there.

If all the public see's are crappy little games, thats what they will come to expect. If they see quality indie titles that fill a niche the "majors" cant, or dont think is worthwhile, then I can see indies becoming stronger and stronger.

Ah, enough spouting already, good luck with the xbox stuff mike, and please let us all know how it pans out!

Phil.

Gee Phil, for a guy who came out into this thread implying 'desperation' for going into console, you sure have seen the light :p I will heed your rhetoric and make sure I won't have big stary eyes when it comes to the eventful day I should ever get a publishing deal with a console publisher, like you told us all.

Anyways, thanks for answering my query BongPig, I hope you grow your business with the added console sales, as the original intent was. ;)

If you aren't receiving any funding from the publisher, how do the percentages break down?

Siebharinn,
No idea as yet. Untill the concept submission if given a thimbs up by Sony/MicroSoft, theres no point even discussing it.

Besides, we would be likely to sell the full licence rather than go for any royalty deal, so if we get our way, there would be no percentages to worry about.