Jets'n'Guns - classic side-scrolling shooter [Archive] - Indiegamer Developer Discussion Boards

Yossarian

11-13-2004, 06:24 PM

Awesome game. Truly stunning graphically, and fun as hell. The aspect of actually buying your weapons and outfitting your ship brings a real fresh twist to the whole scroller thing. Less about power-ups and more about getting new gear. I have a feeling this aspect alone will drive sales. People will really want to get access to all the goodies if they are anything like what you start with in the demo.

Only two notes on it:

1. You REALLY need someone who is a native english speaker to help you with some of the language in the game. There are some wrong verb tenses (e.g. Sell when it should say Sold, using Sale instead of Sell, etc) scattered around in quite a few places, and some of the translations to the text are a little sloppy. You'll have a few people turned off by this, although I don't think it impacted the game, it was just obvious that it was done by a non english speaking team.

2. The second note may be more of general business question that I"m not familiar with, but if your DirectX requirements are over what is shipped with Windows XP, you really may want to think about packaging the required DirectX with your game (I'm just not sure if you *can* do that).

It will mean added size, but right now you get a pretty cryptic message about not having a .DLL (the DX9.DLL). I immediately understood what I needed, and went and downloaded it, but many users may not. If you can't package DX9 with the game, then I'd suggest capturing that error and making it more descriptive. Tell users in the error dialog that they need to go download it from www.microsoft.com, or better yet, tell them that AND launch IE to the appropriate page for them.

Otherwise, let me say it again, VERY cool. I'll probably be picking up a copy of this myself.

svero

11-13-2004, 09:12 PM

I think the game itself is great. I don't like the interface outside the game at all. It feels kind of cluttered and hard to get into and I think it will put some people off. It took me a while to figure out I had to equip the ship and how that all fitted together with the campaign and so on. If it were me I'd redo the interface with an emphesis on clarity and try to reduce any clutter. Really lead players in. I only played the first level, but the in game play was quite good. I found weapon selection slightly overwhelming at first. It took me a few tries to get a configuration I really liked to play the level with. I'd be inclined to have a level before the first one where players learn the mechanics of buying the right weapons before they're totally thrown into the fray. Overall though it's a really slick game. I quite liked it. I just wonder where you'll sell it! If only there were somewhere on the net to really promote games like this without spending a lot of money.

patrox

11-14-2004, 12:04 AM

Wooooo!

I've been waiting for that game since i played the demo years ago!

Then you sold the rights to a publisher as far as i remember, what happened with that?

It's finally out! yay!

pat.

patrox

11-14-2004, 12:31 AM

I can't seem to equip my ship with weapons :( i can't pass level 1 ( i die near the first turret )

Also once i'm dead i'm out of money when i restart a game. :confused:

Am I supposed to use several keys to shoot ? ( i can't find the help file either )
I agree with svero about the interface, it's very confusing, just having to press "back" to go forward is weird.

Thanks.
pat.

tolik

11-14-2004, 01:02 AM

I've played like 20 SHMUPs in the past month... Let's try to see that one, it looks promising. I've played Tyrian for 1000+ hours (yes, that's hundreds of full-time days), this was in the distant past. I hope your game will be much more hardcore and less casual than anything else showing up here in the past few weeks. I'm giving it a shot right now and checking the screenshots I can congratulate you on doing another masterpiece. My favorite SHMUPs are Tyrian, Einhander and Zero Gunner 1/2.

I hope you'll beat Steel Saviour and old Solaris 104 :)

GrahamGoring

11-14-2004, 01:07 AM

I think that the interface is unnecessarily clunky (especially the tabs for the menus at the right) and first time around it's not obvious at all how to buy weapons and install them. However the game is bright, brash, contains a wonderful eye for detail and destruction on nigh-on unprecedented levels and so you can count me as a customer. I shall be placing my order this evening.

Btw, looking at the ordering page it seems if you order it on CD then the game itself costs $24.95 but then you have to also select the Order On CD option which adds a further sum to the transaction so that the final cost is more like $35. Is that a mistake?

tolik

11-14-2004, 01:52 AM

Man, this does cost 25+ dollars.
This is VERY HARDCORE GAME! Luckily, only keyboard controls are good enough to play it (autoremoval of any casual market). I see Poland Atari scene roots here with all the chippy metal tunes and bloody gfx.

I was able to reach "rail gun ship" thrice which killed me from the first shot every time. It took me almost an hour (like in Tyrian!) to figure out what are the best weapons for this campaign.

Interface is clear and nice (for those who played Tyrian and other complex SHMUPs with storyline).

Too bad I can't buy Atarix in this version :D G'old 65XE ;)

I wonder how many levels this demo does have.

patrox

11-14-2004, 03:34 AM

When you switch from fullscreen to window mode, the mouse is disabled, the cursor is glued in the middle of the screen.

Great game, for hardcore players only. ( still stuck at the beginning of level 1 :( )

pat.

Andy

11-14-2004, 04:29 AM

I saw only screenshots so far Tovy but...

Perfection!

PS I'll give it a try as soon as I will find the way to download 19 MB.

Thanks,

Reactor

11-14-2004, 04:58 AM

That is one really fun game to play! I made it to the end of the first level, but I accidentally clicked escape (after loosing against the end boss a few times) and lost my checkpoint position. You might want to add in a confimation so that kind of thing doesn't happen to people. Anyway, you get top marks for one of the best shoot'em up games I've played in years. Great work :)

tolik

11-14-2004, 06:27 AM

Pity there's only one level.

I finally made it through first check (there's hull integrity +50% which I didn't make to take playing first hour) point and then, at once, made right to the boss and almost killed. Then I was unlucky for 5 times but finally killed the boss.
Same level. Everything suddenly became too hard. The best weapons I could buy couldn't kill the transport ship...

Awesome game.

Dan MacDonald

11-14-2004, 07:03 AM

I've tried 3 times to download it, the download keeps timing out...

oNyx

11-14-2004, 10:44 AM

Great game. Tons of partikles etc and not a single stutter. (I'm talking about a 500mhz machine here) Good job :)

I'd also had my problems with the interface. But it was pretty usable after a while.

No gamepad support. Uh. Thought I can only play with the mouse... therefore I did that... later I found out that I can also use curors, ctrl and alt.

Once you have your ship equipped with a good combinations of weapons it's pretty ok difficulty wise. Beat the final boss... and then that level again? The second go was much harder, but I also finished that. The third go was way to easy then, because my ship was absolutely overpowered. Killing the final boss took somewhat like 2 seconds. I'm really wondering how the difficulty ramps up in the full version... right now I don't have a clue.

Sometimes the music just stopped and continued after some seconds.

I just looked into the game.ini... REMCON, WS_1 to WS_5, ROTARY_PLUS, ROTARY_MINUS... hmm... seems like I've overseen something.

mkovacic

11-14-2004, 11:00 AM

The game is awesome. Very hard, too. The mouse controls didn't work for me though, I can only move the ship in huge discrete steps when using the mouse.

I'd probably buy it if I didn't discover Steel Saviour on the same day as your game, now it's the choice between the two. ;)

z3lda

11-14-2004, 12:42 PM

I was unable to download as well. Same issue as Dan.

Nemesis

11-14-2004, 01:56 PM

Hey I've seen those graphics a long while back and I kept saying to myself what a pity it was that there's no game code to give them life. And now my wish has come true! Oh boy I love shmups.. one of my favourite game genres!I haven't played it yet but I'm dowloading as I write this...

oNyx

11-14-2004, 03:52 PM

[...]Beat the final boss... and then that level again? The second go was much harder, but I also finished that.[...]

The second go isn't harder usually. I just spend to much money on the engines, because the mouse control felt to restricted. (It's imo much easier with the cursor keys)

Anthony Flack

11-14-2004, 05:07 PM

It keeps timing out for me too. You really need to host this somewhere better.

Midnight Synergy

11-14-2004, 05:32 PM

Downloaded last night, zipped out my Credit Card tonight. Haven't had a chance to download the full version yet, so all comments are on the demo version.

Very nice! Not perfect, but very nice!

Total 80s chip music, dudes! Reminded me of playing Zynapse on my Atari ST. And that's a good thing! ;)

Great particle engine. Amazing amount of detail. Fun to play.

Allright, obviously I bought it, so what are the drawbacks (that you might scare other potential customers off with)?

1. The shop/mission interface is clunky. You get used to it, but at first you have no idea what to do.

2. The first level boss is kinda lame, and has been done a billion times before. I hope the other boss monsters are more inspired, you certainly have the technique to pull it off.

3. The difficulty level is very uneven. Buy the wrong weapons, and you're dead in the water. Upgrade enough and the level is dead easy (by the third go my Flamethrower was so powerful I didn't even see any enemies on screen anymore - they blew up before even entering, including 2/3 of the boss. Got me over 3 million credits - I'm scared to think what I'll be able to buy in the full version). Hopefully that is not the way the full version progresses, but even if not, you might want to change that - it obviously concerned some others on this board.

4. The RailGun enemy seems kinda unfair... you don't really know what's happening, and boom, you're dead.

That's it... I might have more comments after playing the full version a bit. Probably not today/tonight though.

There's been some very oppulent horizontal PC shooters out this year, this game, Dovez, and Steel Saviour. Dovez is neat (and I love the music) - might just "have to" buy that as well. Steel Saviour wasn't quite my cup'o'tea, although it is beautiful to look at! Glad to see that scene is alive and (hopefully) well.

Cheers,
Patrick

tolik

11-15-2004, 02:13 AM

Complete the first campaign 5 times. Having real fun with all the upgrades and 13000000 scores :)
Going to buy it instead of Super Elvis which has OpenGL...

tolik

11-15-2004, 04:58 AM

Bought it!

Nemesis

11-15-2004, 06:22 AM

patrox

11-15-2004, 07:28 AM

Is it just me or is the game impossibly hard? My best try was when I pumped all the upgrades into a front gun but even them I seldom got past the first missile gun and never past the tracked missile tank!

Something I'm missing?

Yeah it's impossible, put it on easy :)

Or sell you first weapon and buy the razor gun, it's easier that way.

pat.

GrahamGoring

11-15-2004, 02:01 PM

Going to buy it instead of Super Elvis which has OpenGL...

Rub his face in it why don't you? ;)

Oh, I should point out that BMT refunded the extra CD cost to me as the game is shipped by the developer - ie, don't check that CD option for heaven's sake if you order the CD version. Still had to pay VAT but I can't really blame the developers for that now... Or can I?!

tolik

11-15-2004, 02:36 PM

Yeah, same problem. Payed the VAT but the CD version from BMT/RegNow is not the one which is referred on site.

I've finished this amazing game. "Is this the end...?"

It stands up with the promised Tyrian, R-Type and other games very perfectly. I see a lot of Atari stuff here (especially the hardkore muzak!). I wonder if creators were also inspired by some Extirpator enemies :D

I'm very excited to complete it again on higher level difficulty.

And it's really much longer than 110 minutes.

RedKnight

11-15-2004, 04:05 PM

With all those "EXCELLENT" shmup games around,
it seems like it's going to be very hard to come up with one shmup game.

Feel like were on the coming second golden age of SHMUP. :D

tolik

11-15-2004, 11:14 PM

Second Golden Age of SHMUPs passed with Dreamcast.
This console had all the games from Naomi, Sega arcade based systems.
(http://www.system16.com)

Dan MacDonald

11-15-2004, 11:29 PM

It was nice to see Ikaruga come out on the GC though...

Nemesis

11-16-2004, 12:20 AM

I've just had a peek at the screenshots for Steel Saviour.. I'm speechless! I can't believe that's indie stuff. I'm downloading now.. will give it a go later on today hopefully.

We're really getting spoilt for choice when it comes to shmups lately! By the way, has anyone seen Solaris by Apollo Entertainment? It was released in 2000.. very polished. There are some screenshots here:
http://www.shmup.com/index.php?page=fiche&id=505

As for Jets'n'Guns, it's a nice game. My only niggle is that the style is somewhat inconsistent, mixing 1940's era planes and dirigibles with futuristic craft. On the other hand, one can look at it as having a style of its own. Anyway, the game has very good production values (save for the text, which is in dire need of a decent review) and is definitely fun to play. My other niggle is that the game is hard.. I'd consider the novice level as "normal".

tolik

11-16-2004, 12:52 AM

I've just had a peek at the screenshots for Steel Saviour.. I'm speechless! I can't believe that's indie stuff. I'm downloading now.. will give it a go later on today hopefully.

It's very hardcore and very arcade-style.

We're really getting spoilt for choice when it comes to shmups lately! By the way, has anyone seen Solaris by Apollo Entertainment? It was released in 2000.. very polished. There are some screenshots here:
http://www.shmup.com/index.php?page=fiche&id=505

I've referred to it in one of my posts here.

As for Jets'n'Guns, it's a nice game. My only niggle is that the style is somewhat inconsistent, mixing 1940's era planes and dirigibles with futuristic craft. On the other hand, one can look at it as having a style of its own. Anyway, the game has very good production values (save for the text, which is in dire need of a decent review) and is definitely fun to play. My other niggle is that the game is hard.. I'd consider the novice level as "normal".

It mixes all the dreams of the game creators :)

princec

11-16-2004, 01:53 AM

Super Elvis is free to everyone @ indiegamer anyway :) No need to buy it.

Played J&G now, initial thoughts:
- Gidrahs don't die quickly enough early on (see Platypus). I hate it when things take 2 shots to kill.
- The whole weapon selection screen thing right up front is pretty offputting. You need to get into the action first then go to the shops later.
- Love the mixture of Victorian technology and futuristic. Nice style.

Cas :)

RedKnight

11-16-2004, 03:54 AM

Second Golden Age of SHMUPs passed with Dreamcast.
This console had all the games from Naomi, Sega arcade based systems.
(http://www.system16.com)

Not True.

It started with Dreamcast.
and there's still Games (http://www.classicgaming.com/shmups/reviews/psyvariar2/index.html) coming out for the dreamcast.

And Gradius V shows that there's still shmup on the ps2

Anthony Flack

11-16-2004, 05:23 AM

The Dreamcast certainly seems to have had far more than its fair share of excellent games. Too bad.

Oh, and what's a gidrah?

princec

11-16-2004, 06:12 AM

Google for it :)

Cas :)

tolik

11-16-2004, 06:33 AM

Not True.

It started with Dreamcast.
and there's still Games (http://www.classicgaming.com/shmups/reviews/psyvariar2/index.html) coming out for the dreamcast.

And Gradius V shows that there's still shmup on the ps2

You need to compare the rate of games flowing out when Naomi/Dreamcast appeared, and when it died (past 2001). While it was alive, there were dozens of games coming out the same year.

Now it's just 2-3 a year. Same as usual "non golden" years ;)

oNyx

11-16-2004, 06:51 AM

Stumbled across a bug once. The boss just disappeared... no explosions... nothing... just plop and he was gone. The game didn't continue after that. (I could still fly around and wait for Christmas.)

I was unable to reproduce it. IIRC it happened when I dropped napalm bombs onto the remaining upper piece (that teapot).

Oh and JoyToKey (http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA016823/joytokey/english.html)(rocks!) also doesn't work with this game. So... yea, the playing experience is rather of that unergonomic kind.

the2bears

11-16-2004, 11:04 AM

Tried out the demo at work :D which isn't the best test... one reason is I've got an AV switch between two boxes which tends to mess around with mouse and keyboard inputs. But anyway, here's some impressions:

Great style, love the "steam punk" style! Very "Blackhawk" comic book and cool.

Seems the difficulty level is too hard right from the start (and I play alot of shooters, no expert but no greenhorn either). Worked much better second time in, buying some advanced weapons but I feel I should be able to jump right in without RTFM etc.

One *major* annoyance, a couple pauses occurred, where the screen went black for a few seconds and all action stopped. Then, the last time it happened it rotated my display 180 degrees. This was a pain, hard to fix looking at everything upside down with mouse controls inverted (and I've "mastered" AlienFlux and SuperElvis controls;)

Here's the "not-so-good" graphic card details for tracking this down:

Intel 82865G Graphics Controller

All in all this is a game I'll seriously consider buying (after testing on the home machine with its ATI) Nice work!

Bill

Anthony Flack

11-16-2004, 04:17 PM

You don't mean, "Ghidrah, the 3 Headed Monster" do you?

undead

11-16-2004, 04:34 PM

hello to all players here. i read all the stuff and try to answer all i can...

first of all about CD problem: we are very sorry about that. we removed the checkbox now.

to yossarian: you are right about our english. we know it. it's jsut we are out of time and money and english speaking friends to fix this right know. we'll try as soon as possible. we'll do something about that direct-x problem. and thanks for the praise.

to all unhappy with interface: sorry to hear that. i think it's pretty minimal and clear. we cannot see, how to make it easier to use, if we want to keep all the functions: equipment, buying of stuff and upgrading.

about testing weapons: sure you have to test it before the mission. that's why we allow to hide menu even during the shopping break (by pressing ESC key). just hide the menu and try to shot down training targets.

patrox: your message is pretty confusing. you definitelly CAN upgrade weaqpons. when you enter the shopping break you have green glowing HYPERSHOPPING tab in the upper right corner. click it and choose some stuff forn the list you got. when you abort level, you will get back to the preceding shopping break with cash you had before your unsuccesfull try to finish the level. when you start the campaing you have some amout of money, so you can buy things...

is jng "hardcore"?: no. it's not. i made the game many times harder originally, but all testers called me names i cannot repeat here, so we cut down difficulty significantly. but success still depends greatly on your choice of weapons. average player shloud probably succeed with suboptimal weapon combo. we tested hundreds of combination. but you still have to get some guns from top of the list. if you spend too much bucks on engine or hull integrity you won't have enough cash for guns and that means you are a dead man...

difficulty of next rounds: well. it's still not balanced perfectly and probably it never will be. there are too many posibilities and we cannot predict money gain in the previous round. so if anybody kills a lot and gets plenty of cash, he will be able to buy better guns and became very poverfull. (now i understand what makers of diablo 2 had to go through during betatesting...)

to Midnight Synergy - point 3: you probably finished demo several times. we added flamer in demo just to show it :). so this is not relevant. but maybe we still have some overpowered weapons in full version. in general it should work fine, but everything is possible. if you find something too powerfull in the full version, please report it...

nemesis: i cannot say, what's wrong, but some tips for you: try tornado. try to spend all the money. if you buy one gun with max level and then you have some 20000$ left without chance to spend it elsewhere, it's bad. degrade that gun by one level and use extra money to buy another. and buy baker bombs - but level 1 is enough. and try to decide what to kill and what to avoid. missile tank can be pretty easy enemy, if you know, what to do. maybe we make some "how-to" video for demo :-)

about the style: well, that was the main idea. we had enough of all that hi-tec star trek like stuff. so we chose to make all those spitfires and rocket zeppelins and other stuff (try the full version). you will fight even verne's albatros in the full version ;-). (accidently "world of tommorow" is in cinemas across the world now, so we weren't only one with the idea ;-)

about controls: we'll try to add gamepad and joystick as soon as possible. work's in progress...

bugs (screen and dissappearing boss): we noted these down.

Midnight Synergy

11-16-2004, 05:36 PM

Well I'm quite enjoying the full version so far. Again, well done!

The levels are a lot of fun, and the full version progresses very nicely in difficulty - meaning it is always just hard enough to die in frustration ten times, but always fair that you can figure out a better combination or how to get through a particular attack sequence.

Speaking of difficulty, I've beat the original R-Type, zipped through Alien Flux, and love this type of "try again and get a little further each time" mentality, and I still think this is hard! I kept making Intensity XS (http://www.midnightsynergy.com/intensity) and ReCharge (http://www.midnightsynergy.com/recharge) easier and easier, and still some people write me in frustration that they cannot finish the first level! If you are targeting casual gamers, you really have to make it easier. If, on the other hand, you are targeting a more hard-core audience (i.e. people like me!), then go for it!

Either way, it's a rock-solid game, and it's clear that lots of work went into it. I wish you lots of success with it!

Patrick

PS: I found one bug with the Atarix - neat feature, by the way. One had a code of 0655. I know this but it came up with green, green, yellow, green, (i.e. it couldn't distinguish the two five's properly). Hence I couldn't unlock that cargo box.

Midnight Synergy

11-16-2004, 06:23 PM

Actually, let me just add that I think the main thing for you might be to make the demo easier to get into... not so much the full game.

One suggestion: start with a well equipped ship and play an easy/short level (such as Level 1 from the full game). Only after that level go to the shop, then into your pirate island level. Get the game playing first, before they're confronted with the shop interface.

Hamumu

11-16-2004, 06:46 PM

I think this game is AWESOME, but I agree that the difficulty is absolutely off the charts. I am a veteran of these types of games, but tried 10+ times to get through the level on Normal before giving up and trying easy (all with different arrangements of gear). Took me two tries before I found a combination I could get through Easy with even. Then the second time through was much much worse, despite the millions of dollars I had (which is probably okay if in the full game you'd hit that second round after having powered up through an entire game). Somehow I squeaked by eventually, and encountered a problem... on the third (and subsequent) passes, the game suddenly became trivial. It wasn't just that I had great weapons - I just tried it right now using only a level 1 Daisy Cutter, and I took out the transport ship in just a few bullets from it (the transport was my way of testing weapons previously - I knew a weapon set was good if I was able to destroy it at all... which I never once could on the second round!). Definitely a bug!

I think even if you think Normal mode is where it should be, you need to bring down Easy mode... it is after all called easy!

arcadetown

11-16-2004, 10:49 PM

tolik

11-17-2004, 12:31 AM

To all the people here:
Please play Tyrian (there's shareware available on the web)
PLEASE DO IT! Before complaining.

http://www.dosgamesarchive.com/download/game/178

svero

11-17-2004, 02:38 AM

i cant get tyrian to run under xp - any trick to it?

tolik

11-17-2004, 03:37 AM

It's a (quite) old DOS game. Get a DOSBOX (http://dosbox.sf.net) and it will run there. Slowly, but sure will. There's Tyrian 2000 but I'm not sure if it's any better with the compatibility.

I would suggest you to run SETUP.EXE and disable all the sound support there.
It might help.

mkovacic

11-17-2004, 04:05 AM

Night Elf

11-17-2004, 04:42 AM

One suggestion: start with a well equipped ship and play an easy/short level (such as Level 1 from the full game). Only after that level go to the shop, then into your pirate island level. Get the game playing first, before they're confronted with the shop interface.

I agree with this, too. You have so many options and combinations to choose from when buying gear that you get lost. I don't know how it works in the full version, but I would make weapons available one at a time. That way the player has time to try all of them in action and be able to decide better as the levels progress. Having the test option is not enough to assess how well your weapon combo will work in an actual level.

Only reason stuck through it was the comments from other people in this forum leading me to believe there was more available than my quick non-pleasurable deaths at first.

That exactly happened to me, too. I tried it once and died many times without getting very far. So I quit. But then, reading how people here thought the game was great, despite the high difficulty, I gave it another try. It took me a lot of tries with different shopping combinations to be able to almost get to the end of the level (I couldn't defeat the boss because my ship was too damaged.)

IMO, the problem with the demo level is that it's not very well planned. I found it very very hard to get to the first checkpoint, but form there getting to the final boss wasn't difficult. I went from the first checkpoint to the last without losing once.

I think putting an extra hull repairing item in the first part of the level would make it much easier. The difficulty would still be challenging, but the level of frustration would surely go down.

You should also consider putting the repairing items after checkpoints. When I got to the final boss in the demo level my ship was too damaged. So I lost and continued form the last checkpoint, right next to the boss. I kept thinking, 'If only I could start from the previous checkpoint... I know I could play better and get to this point with more health.' And I didn't want to start the level from the beginning after it had cost me so much to get there.

Regarding difficulty levels, I think our task as game developers is making players feel good. I consider myself a pretty good player (and I guess most players do so, too :)) so I don't like having to lower the difficulty of a game to be able to play it. I don't mind if there are 'hard', 'harder', or 'insane' levels, most of the time I don't even try them. I always play in the default difficulty as I believe it to be what the designer 'really ment.' So, I should be able to play in 'normal.' However, with JnG I had no choice but to select the easier level... That certainly doesn't make me feel good. And I guess most of your customers would feel the same.

Of course, what I'm talking about is just a psychological reaction. For example, I wouldn't have minded if your default difficulty level had been the easiest one. If JnG had had levels named 'Normal', 'Hard' and 'Very hard', and the default selection had been 'Normal' it would have been OK with me.

I don't know what's involved in creating a new difficulty level for JnG. But if it's not so hard, I would make four difficulty settings. The new one would be easier than the current easy mode. The current easy mode would be named 'Normal' (or something like that) and it'd be the default choice.

Other than that, I think your game is great. I had fun playing the demo (when I finally got to play more than a couple of minutes before being killed) and I think your graphics and production values in general are top quality.

tolik

11-17-2004, 05:15 AM

I just tried it, got to the boss on first try. It's like 5 time easier from JnG. Not that I'm complaining.

JnG demo has the 3rd of 4th mission at once in demo, BTW! And this mission is really hard.

Actually, I was referring to the interface. JnG interface is just a bit less usable than Tyrians one. That's the point. JnG creators doesn't say it's a hardcore game since all of them are so hardcore that self-judgment is quite hard now :)

It is a hardcore game.

2Night Elf.
You are absolutely right about the difficulty. Comparing to Tyrian, it's like Hard difficulty... Tyrian has 5 levels of difficulty (2 are hidden) and JnG instantly starts from the 3rd one.

Night Elf

11-17-2004, 05:19 AM

To all the people here:
Please play Tyrian (there's shareware available on the web)
PLEASE DO IT! Before complaining.

http://www.dosgamesarchive.com/download/game/178
I just tried Tyrian and I agree with mkovacic. It's much easier than JnG. I also got to the final boss and defeated it on the first go. And I didn't even buy one weapon, I just used the default one that was already equipped. And this was in the Normal difficulty setting.

Oh, and I remembered a couple of other suggestions I had in mind:

- You should make it more obvious when your ship is getting damaged. Make it flash in red or something. For example, it was until the 10th try or so that I realised that hitting elevations on the ground damaged the ship.

- I would also change the indicators at the bottom of the screen. While they look very good and go with the 'theme' of the game, they're not very good at showing your ship's status at a glance. It's just that they're not standard enough and it takes you a bit to read them. Maybe you could divide the clock where the arrow is and paint one half green and the other red (or something like that); that would make the meter much easier to read.

- I think you shoud make enemy bullets more visible. Some of them are so tiny and so similar to yours that sometimes they're hard to see in all the mess. Maybe you could make enemy bullets a bit bigger and perhaps they should have a colour other than yellow.

tolik

11-17-2004, 05:29 AM

I've got contacted by original developers this morning and they are reading this thread and taking some suggestions from here so hopefully we'll see an updated demo ;)

Yeah, these damage indicators are quite small, but that's relevant only to the demo version.

In full version, after some specific point, you have enough experience to understand what's really happening on the screen.

Midnight Synergy

11-17-2004, 06:11 AM

One of the things that helped me get better was to realize that enemy shots hardly make any damage (at least the regular bullets), while crashing into ships is devastating. I just to try to weave and dodge bullets like crazy (which is impossible, and makes you run into all sorts of trouble). Now I let my hull take a lot of it before I worry.

undead

11-17-2004, 02:01 PM

jng IS an easy game, if you know what to do ;-). to find out a strategy is part of the fun :-). some guns work better than others. some enemies are more dangerous... and notes like about bullet hits, which are much weaker that direct colision, are VERY IMPORTAINT. btw, it's logical, isn't it? heavy armored ship should resist some damage, but direct contact? that should bring down any ship.

you are right that tyrian was kind of game that "played itself". i loved the game, but i'm not sure if i ever died there. we wanted to make ours a chalenge. but we discuss your suggestions here and we will adjust the game to make it better.

we will lower the difficulty. we will discuss your suggestions about the demo as well.

and to all "not-so-hardcore-players": i've never beat the r-type ;-). so who's hardcore :-).

the2bears

11-17-2004, 06:40 PM

and to all "not-so-hardcore-players": i've never beat the r-type ;-). so who's hardcore :-).

I've loved R-type for years, first in the arcade, then on the TurboGrafx and then on... cough... MAME. I share your pain, I've never once beat the final boss. I've finished R-type III and Delta, but not the original :(

JnG worked fine at home... but I'm now in a quandary: this or Steel Saviour (thanks for whomever mentioned that!)

Bill

Vectrex

11-17-2004, 07:11 PM

undead: one suggestion that would make it 'easier' without wimping out is to make *your* ship inflict damage. So if you hit another ship you loose a chunk of health but you would most likely take out the other ship too. At the moment my only real frustration is getting 'stuck' in a position that a ship is constantly touching yours and draining your shield like crazy, even if it's a little one. Blow it up! More explosions! This would also add a nice strategy when you're desperate because your ship should inflict alot of damage for each shield hit you take (eg if you see a 50% sheild powerup you can ram a big ship with half your shields :) )

Anthony Flack

11-17-2004, 09:07 PM

on... cough... MAME

Don't you mean, "on... woohoo! MAME!"?

MAME is excellent. And despite what you may have heard, it doesn't fund terrorists or anything.

the2bears

11-18-2004, 05:25 AM

MAME is excellent. And despite what you may have heard, it doesn't fund terrorists or anything.

I completely agree. I have very little guilt on playing old classics... this not being the forum for copyright issues... however, things do need to be rethought, the present system is out of control! Anyway, long live MAME and my eternal quest for completing the R-type holy grail:)

Bill

ps. Anthony, saw the article about you in _The_Art_of_Game_Worlds_! Cool, nice press.

Anthony Flack

11-18-2004, 07:14 AM

Yes, I was well pleased. Much thanks to Leo.

patrox

11-18-2004, 07:38 AM

Back on the topic:
Any chance of a coupon for JNG ?

pat ( who said i'm cheap!? :rolleyes: )

undead

11-18-2004, 02:57 PM

steel savior or jng? maybe this will help you to decide right! ;-):

"Even though Jets’n’Guns is another game in a seemingly worn-out genre, it definitely breathes new life into side-scrolling-space-ship-shooting-an-endless-amount-of-oncoming-enemies type of games. The game becomes fairly addicting, as I have spent the past few days playing this until two o’clock in the morning because it’s that fun. When it comes to price I was actually surprised that it was only $19.95 (for download only) or $24.95 if you bought the CD to get shipped to your house (including download). I can think of equally priced games that are nowhere near as amazing as Jets’n’Guns, which is truly an enthralling experience."

it's kind of answer to the "coupon request" as well ;-).

rest of the review is here: http://www.gamersmark.com/reviews/view/487

about ramming enemies: there are 2 devices in the full version to do that. first is special device called "magneto gravi-pad", that creates kind of anti-ground shield. it greatly reduces damage taken from ground and throws killing shockwaves every time, you hit it. second thing is weapon called "banzai rammer". it creates large metal object in front of your ship to crush enemies. first level is little bit slow, but higher ones work well.

btw, WE ARE ALMOST FINISHED WITH GAMEPAD SUPPORT. we will test it and then release a new demo with it (and some other minor changes) for everyone to try. btw, there really was a bug in a third round of the demo. it's difficulty factor was set wrong. it'll be fixed too.

oNyx

11-18-2004, 04:42 PM

>WE ARE ALMOST FINISHED WITH GAMEPAD SUPPORT

Woohoo!

Vectrex

11-18-2004, 08:00 PM

undead:
"about ramming enemies: there are 2 devices in the full version to do that. first is special device called "magneto gravi-pad", that creates kind of anti-ground shield. it greatly reduces damage taken from ground and throws killing shockwaves every time, you hit it. second thing is weapon called "banzai rammer". it creates large metal object in front of your ship to crush enemies. first level is little bit slow, but higher ones work well."

well that's cool. I still think it's different to what I meant since I assume it's like the force in rtype which doesn't get damaged and your sheild doesn;t get damaged. I just think it would take away the only unfun frustration left in the game :) It's quite unsatisfying getting hit at the moment as nothing much happens. If you really don't think the other ships should blow up, then maybe add a small screen shake when you get hit. Shake amount could depend on the damage taken so you get a feeling of the amount of damage each thing inflicts. Also some debrie when you get hit (again amount depends on damage taken). A sheild effect when you get hit (ah-la startrek) would make it easy to see you are taking damage if you're looking elsewhere on the screen.
These things should make it almostfun to get hit :D

Nexic

11-19-2004, 03:29 AM

I've played and bought this game, it is purely amazing. I think it is difficult but its still brilliant. I don't know how well it will sell to the average person but it definately sells to me :) I am seriously jealous of JnG - my latest game looks like a pathetic piece of school nancy boy rubbish in comparison hehe.

I officially bow down to your game production excellence and wish that one day I will be able to produce something of that quality. It is definatelty the best shooter I have ever played.

*kisses your gold plated feet*

tolik

11-19-2004, 04:32 AM

It is definatelty the best shooter I have ever played.

In order to reach excellence, you need to broaden your view.
Play Einhander. You've never heard about it? Pity, it's the best PSX SHMUP.
Play all arcade SHMUPs (at least CPS).
Play Dreamcast SHMUPs.

You need to understand the essence of the genre in order to create new successfull and appearling games, it was told every year on every gamecon...

Nexic

11-19-2004, 06:01 AM

Eitherway JnG is very good.

tolik

11-19-2004, 06:26 AM

Excellent :p

patrox

11-25-2004, 02:44 AM

Ok finally bought it, the full version is much more accessible than the demo. ( yes i can finish the 1st level :) )
The ship is smaller ( which makes me believe we'll be able to choose ships in the next levels ;) ) and there's less boxes to fill.

It's still very hard though.

pat.

princec

11-25-2004, 03:13 AM

Too hard for me :( And I wrote one of the supposedly hardest games out there.

Cas :)

RedKnight

11-25-2004, 05:39 AM

I hope my Vertical shmupie can compete with JnG. :D

It still need alot of things to do.
Like adding two bullets absorbing/reflecting swords in it, a la Radius Silvergun.
so there's no enemies ramming, but I'll give you enemies slashing.

3 Colours weapons upgrade system and a 3 colours score combo chain.
forcing players to shoot at match colors if they wanted to get a high score.

And I also need to make my game "THE" and "HARDEST" shmup in the indie market. :cool:

Nexic

11-25-2004, 06:27 AM

After completing the full game in normal with relative ease I would say that it isnt too hard at all. The problem is that the demo is a few levels into the game which will make things hard. However I think the main problem is that many people either didn't know they could buy things right away, or they couldnt work out how. This makes me sound like a dunce but the first two times I played I only had a single daisycutter because I didnt realise you could upgrade (I didnt read the instructions lol). Possibly you could kit the ship out with some better weaponary by default - but the play ercan still change it if they like?

undead

11-30-2004, 07:25 AM

Here's list of changes to JNG made in new version and link to a download page:

http://jng.rakeingrass.com/index.php

Please download the patch for the full version or the new demo and test it. Report any unwanted behavior.

Btw, new demo has predefined weapon combo, so anyone can start to kill right away. It's difficulty has been lowered too. Any testing and feedback will be appreciated. Thanks.

Midnight Synergy

11-30-2004, 07:26 AM

to Midnight Synergy - point 3: you probably finished demo several times. we added flamer in demo just to show it :). so this is not relevant. but maybe we still have some overpowered weapons in full version. in general it should work fine, but everything is possible. if you find something too powerfull in the full version, please report it...

Just finished the game last night. I'm still amazed at how MUCH there is in the game.

However, on your question above - once I got the tidal wave generator (and sold everything else to max it out) the rest of the levels were waaay to easy (I had about three or four left). You might want to scale that one down.

oNyx

11-30-2004, 04:56 PM

Ok. Here I go.

First of all... gamepad support. Great. Just for beeing a pain in the arse I got not only one, but two gamepads. And guess which one of those the game should have picked. Yea, the other one with id 1 and not the one with id 2 (did you sort it by controller names?). Idially I would have been able to pick the one to use by myself, but usually id 1 will do the trick.

Just before the level starts... "press any key"... I press fire on the gamepad... it starts. Just like it should be. At the end of the level "press any key"... I press fire on the gamepad... nothing happens. If I die... "press space"... mh. Pressing fire on the gamepad should do the any key/space thing in both cases.

Flea circus on max is missing the damage, heat and speed icons.

On the flip side. Playing with a pad is great, the default weapons are ok, music playback works much better (and I even had stuff running in the background) and the difficulty ramping also makes some sense now :)

edit: "30th December 2004" the date on that page is wrong.